"Love" in the therapeutic relationship

I assume you are asking me? Yes, I was having extreme anxiety and paranoia about my dog dying... he was an amazing saint through all of that. Helped me from ending my life when it happened....

Somewhere along the way, we bonded deeply.... it felt more like a friendship than anything.... and it was the main reason I kept going, I loved getting to know him, I loved being with him, I loved laughing and talking with him, I thought he really liked me and also "Felt" things too but now I feel like he just played me and I'm an idiot

I agree and I KNOW everyone leaves.... it's why I've lived my life keeping people distant. I figured it out quite young.

I am not willing to let anyone else get close to me again, no... I will talk to people, I will allow my dogs to care about me.... I wish I could still say that I would risk reaching out in 2 yrs but I no longer believe he will even remember me, let alone care at that point. He's probably thrilled beyond words that I am out of his life.

Any love that I feel for my t I know is transference. It’s my inner little person (5yrs old & Grace, 8yrs old) They love him, as he is the ‘good’ dad they never had. The adult me admires him & is very fond of him, but it’s definitely not love for that part of me. I wouldn’t want to have a relationship outside of therapy with him as I know it would be different & I want & need what he offers me in the relationship we have, within the safe boundaries we also have. I don’t want anything to change & I love the time I have with him, just as it is which is safe & predictable.

I think the question is not whether therapists care, the question is to what extent they pretend to care more than they really do. Seems the bigger that gap, the more godawful the thing can become. Especially if the client is in a bad place and can't see clearly.

Wow.. like I am really surprised. So the thousands of people that have been helped by therapists are just gullible fools who got what they paid for?

You're not an idiot. This is HIS fault, not yours. He had a responsibility to maintain therapeutic boundaries and failed abysmally at that task. As a result, he has left you with even more distrust of people than you had previously and caused you such pain that at one point, you even said it was worse than when your dog passed. He was SO WRONG for acting like your friend instead of your therapist, and it's no wonder you are having trouble reconciling how a supposed friend can just walk out of your life. The whole thing is a major mind****.

Edit: Can you try to lighten up a bit on the negative self talk? I'm not one of those people who thinks we should be lovey dovey all the time to ourselves - self criticism is not a bad thing, per se. However, you're telling yourself a ton of really hurtful things that may feel true, but that are either definitely not true (you aren't a loser) or that you have no way of knowing (that he's "probably thrilled beyond words" to be rid of you). Your self-flagellation is a real misery spiral that gets you nowhere.

I know I struggle with negative self talk, T always told me about that too...

It may be somewhat his fault but also mine. I'm grown enough to own up to my parts in it. There is no way I am blaming him completely for everything. I paid to keep going, I knew he was likely playing me.... I knew it was "limited" and I deluded myself to believe otherwise. Could have quit at any time but I chose to keep going.

I don't hate him. I don't blame him. **** happens and he may have not handled things the best but he isn't a terrible person that should be completely accountable for all of this.

I guess right now I more or less looking for hope, looking for belief that somehow he did really care and he wont forget me but I just can't. My mind is too clouded with sadness to see straight.

Not assuming at all. You literally said you would have felt how you feel about your ex-T if it had been anyone else doing what he did. As for dogs, I did mention attention, did I not? A homeless person can provide attention, even if they have a hard time with other stuff. My point was that a dog gives its love because we provide something, and that creates a bond. A dog does not love a person because they are intelligent, attractive, funny, etc.

I don't know what your point was about sexual love. I did not say anything relating to that.

what makes you think you never mattered? at all? i think he handled his leaving absolutely terribly, and also blurred boundaries so awful throughout your therapy that you are even more confused, but i don't think it turns into you never mattering.
i don't think Ts are trained to care. Yes there are techniques and what-have-yous that hopefully help a T connect maybe, but care, no? sociopaths exist, and sociopathic Ts exist, and you most certainly can't train them to care. so do you tihnk your T is a sociopath? artley talked about being a teacher, and i am a teacher to 2 year olds. i think i have a rather cold heart, but i do care about those kids. some more than others, but i wasn't *trained* to care about them. i was trained in how to keep them safe, what to do to help them learn and socialize. i care bc i am human, even if i a more cold-hearted one.

i guess this goes back to the first post i quoted. what makes you think you don't matter at all? he was an a-hole that it seems therapy wasn't his *thing,* but it doesn't mean he wasn't human throughout it all.

Hey DP,

I'm up in the night with abandonment anxiety so I may be seeing everything through that prism but is that not the core issue that needs (or needed) worked on with yr ex t (or a t but I get more therapy is not on the cards)?

The dispropotionate anxiety about your dog dying, the black and white thinking about care and love, the not letting anyone (or at least many) get close are all manifestations of that core problem and that is what your t should have been working on.

Instead he made friends with you.

It's not on you at all. You were in a very vulnerable place and he needed to keep the therapy on track, not collude or enable your understandable attempts to subvert the therapy into friendship.

I say this all from coming from a similar place. Just 3 days ago my doc said we need to get you more robust to be able to handle your dog's death. I was like stop right there doc he's not dying ever. So he knows and I know my reaction will be disproportionate- more like a grief disorder - that he is worrying about already and the dog is only 7 and he was looking at it as a long term project over the next 5 - 7 years.

I'm also in a helping profession or vocation really and I, like the teachers here, experience genuine care for my clients. But it is time limited, moderated by the boundaries of my job and the reason I am in their lives. But when they are in mine I care deeply and really exert myself to assist them to my own detriment (e.g. cancelling my self care needs to meet theirs). 6 months later they are a memory, and for cases that touch a nerve, I do think back and hope that good has continued to come to that person.

I had to add that as there seems to be such doubt on this board that people can care or it's faux caring just because it's not everything the client needs - they need e.g. a ****ing decent mother or family but I can't give them that.

From what you've written my feeling is your t cared for you both as a t and crossing the line into a friend.

I've got this maladaptive thought so I hesitate to tell you but here goes. It's that person A doesn't love me 'enough' or person b doesn't care 'enough'.

The 'enough' is because I realise and accept there is love and caring but not what I want or need but I can't be so blind or lacking insight to say to myself they don't care /love. I do try it though

The maladaptive part is that I then turn that into they don't live enough cause I'm not worth it, if I was they would.

This is bull as they love ad they can, there are any number of reasons why they can't give me what I crave - but this is a work in progress and I'm not there yet!

But for you I think he cared but from your point of view not enough - for example he doesn't care enough to break the ideal practice 'rule' of 2 years which if he truly cared he would (or so my thinking would go; not assuming your thoughts).

And he doesn't care enough cause I'm a loser or whatever.

But looking from the outside he v v v likely did care (who sends thousands of texts if not?) But not the type of care or live you crave or need which, for me, borders on the all encompassing unconditional love of a baby - or so my t says and am like yep, why the hell not!

Anyway, don't be too hard on yourself. I'm pro therapy but he's an example of why (i assume) budfox and others denigrate the whole profession. He's brought it into disrepute.

From my own experience (not with therapist, but similar and ugly enough), when you're in a place like this it doesn't really matter what anyone says, because like you've said you're mind is clouded and you will believe what you want to believe. Give time and distance a chance to give you a clear view.

It's how I have always been with people. Time won't change it. I like my loyalty and forgiving soul and my ability to see good in people. Why would I want to change that?

He's not the sole blame here. I'm not a child. I'm not a vulnerable adult. I can say no. I can make my own choices.

I kept going because I loved the relationship we had. I wanted it as much as he seemed to. In the end, anxiety and paranoia won for him. Now I'm just trying to process things in a way I know how, pushing him away, and he's already gone so it's much easier

Exactly, that was my point in initially brining up dogs, dogs are not judgemental like people, they love for the sake of love for humans. They don't care about what someone looks like, or does for a living etc. They are pure.

As for the sexual love, that wasn't directed at you, it was a general comment because a few posts had mentioned it

Maybe I did, as a client.... but I don't know. that was more or less my point, that I horribly tried to get. After all we had, and again, I wont share details publicly here, but he for sure made it seem like HE also wanted more than "just therapy" with me, until the end, and then his paranoia/anxiety won in the end. Made me question everything since.

I will tell you one example... and he did this type of stuff more than once.... but when he found out about the job, it was a monday Am. My session was Tues pm. I had asked him "How did the other clients react so far?" He said "Other clients? You are the first person I told, heck, none of my co workers even know yet, only my boss but she only knows because I put a note of resignation under her door, we haven't had a actual talk about it yet" I couldn't believe he did that... and those Monday clients had to be told "via letter" because they were bi weekly. He ended up telling me that.

I guess I'm just wondering if I really ever mattered as a person... or just as a job.... did he truly care about me or just because he had to? Did he really mean it when he said to reach out in 2 yrs or was he just being nice because he pities me? It's just anxiety, driving me insane because I have no one to really talk to. He's the only one who can answer those things and well.... I no longer am allowed to ask, so my mind is in overdrive

That's kind of my fear..... I don't want to be "just a memory" to him and someone he only associates with a job he hated. Who would want that? Why would he tell me many many times to reach out in 2 yrs, if I am just a memory? How will I know in that amount of time if he even remembers me? All of this **** is driving me insane. I wish I had thought out my final session better to ask important things because I've no more chances now.

as for good enough, literally my entire life, not just a T thing... He and I talked about that often, I've never felt good enough, for anyone or anything, ever. That is thanks to my family...

He DID care, with "limits" and because it was part of his job... no doubt... but does he care now? No, not likely. Why would he? I'm just a "job" to him, a job he hated. It's hard for me to focus on all the things that made me believe he cared anymore, I can only see the bad... and maybe it's hugely because of his terrible last text to me.... and that he's been removed from the company site and a new job posting is up, everything is too real now, and I'm angry... and wish I could talk to him again and get these thoughts about this sorted but nope. I'm not good enough anymore

What do you mean by "in the end, anxiety and paranoia won for him"?

I think you mentioned something very important in the last sentence. Of course it is extremely hard to remember and focus on the positive when this unexpected/unwanted termination is so fresh... but perhaps not a bad idea to actually force yourself to remember what was good occasionally. Someone asked you above what you originally went to see the T for and, from your response, it sounds like that was quite successful and helpful. So he did not just abandon you without helping you with what you sought from therapy?

Even genuine friendships often end because one person decides to make some kind of big change in their lives that would not be compatible with maintaining the friendship, or at least not on the same level. I experienced this a few times in my life, on both ends. Actually mostly me leaving because I moved around so much when I was young, changed professional fields, etc. It absolutely did not mean that I did not love the people who were part of my life in a certain period, did not respect my colleagues and our collaborations, or forgot them. Quite the opposite! If your T engaged in your interactions seemingly enjoying them, I am sure it wasn't all fake at the time and I just can't imagine he does not remember a lot of your interactions fondly. Live changes do not equal abandonment, I know this may sound dismissive a bit but it is often very useful to differentiate the feelings and emotionally-driven perceptions from facts and reality, to see how we infuse events with our imagination. I have the impression that you do that sometimes, DP, when you talk about the value of your therapy and the value of the relationship with that T. I also don't think it is bad that you now try to "push him away" in your mind because it may help the separation. As I said before, my prediction is that your perception of this whole experience will change with time and will be more integrated, maybe like how you now remember the dog that passed on the other side of the grieving tunnel? Not all pain

For sure, usually, I am able to deal with my anxiety by using logic. I am just struggling with it right now...

Yes friendships do end, I experienced it a ton myself.. but generally, it's not just one of them intentionally walking away and cutting you out, it's just that things fade or its a mutual choice.

What I mean is... all this time he didn't care much about ethics, he did what he wanted and even told me about one specific thing that if his boss ever found out, he would lose his license, even just temporary, so he was aware of it. Yet, he kept doing things. In the end, the ONLY reason, he did this "2 yr thing" was because I talked about the email I got from the license board myself... and he suddenly got spooked and had to go with what it said.... but claiming it was something he had always done and when I asked why he did all the stuff like thousands of texts etc he said "because you asked" so he tried to put it all on me, which is not accurate because many of those texts he randomly sent for no reason. He's also a grown man, who can say no. He wanted it as much as I did.... BUT his anxiety and paranoia about getting in trouble took over.... and its more frustrating because he isn't even a T anymore... so it felt more like "Well you were important and I cared but now I am more concerned about this new job and my "title" with my license and also I don't trust you"

He has long struggled with anxiety and paranoia about getting in trouble, it's been a re-occuring theme in our chats. So that's why I said, in the end, it won... rather than me, and the relationship I thought we had.

How am I even supposed to know in 2 yrs if I still matter enough, or if even remembers who I am?

Yes, in time, it will get easier to manage, no doubt but unlike him with me, I wont forget him. He means too much to me. STILL..... and I know it's not mutual anymore and thats what hurts... I feel used

My heart really goes out to you, DP. Your confusion over his inconsistent boundaries makes complete sense. I can definitely understand why you feel used. I suspect that you were - it sounds like he was getting some emotional needs met through you.

I'm not sure if I'd characterize his choice to cut off contact as rooted in paranoia, though. His behavior during your relationship was highly unethical, and he knew it. I think his change of career just gave him the opportunity he needed to remove himself from the temptation of continuing to have an unethical relationship with you.

I also want to say that I am very angry on your behalf that he tried to blame you for his poor boundaries. Not only is he a grown man that can say no, as you said, it was his responsibility to do so. Blaming you for his failures as a therapist is disgusting. I hope this attempt at emotional manipulation didn't leave you feeling at fault in any way. He was just trying to cover his *** by gaslighting you in the hopes that you would not hold him responsible for his egregious behavior.

As someone said, the end does not necessarily justify the manipulative means.

Using the human need for connection and caring and love as a means to profit and personal gain has the stench of exploitation from my point of view, especially when it is sustained by any sort of feigned caring that deceives the vulnerable one in the relationship.

Even a basically dysfunctional or exploitive system can produce positive outcomes, and I am not doubting or dismissing those outcomes.

unfortunately, that is not surprising to hear....seems like one of the oldest tricks in the 'how to be a therapist 101' book: when the shite hits the fan, blame the client...

i've been there myself many times in my own therapy when i questioned and challenged my ex-T on his inconsistencies to cover for some of his poor boundaries. similar to your T, i was always amazed at how fearful and paranoid that he was that i may report him and he would lose his license, but i had no inclination to do so because i felt that i gained positive progress in my healing because of many of the 'out of boundary' offerings he was willing to do. i'm not a vindictive person and in the end was not going to punish him for what i felt were beneficial things he did. plus, similar to what you said, based on conversations later with my T, that what drove him do do many of those 'out of boundary' things is that he was not only doing them for my sake, but he was also filling a need of his own. and it didn't feel 'wrong' (from his perspective) until he became overly worried that he was going to get into serious trouble and drastically changed his approach afterwards, often without discussing it with me first. that is what made it feel hurtful to me....what started to feel like a mind game

be kind to yourself as you work through this grieving process

I do something similar in the sense that if someone chooses to do something that is not what I want or think is best (for example, T taking vacation) I start questioning why my want/needs are not taken into consideration of their decision. Intellectually I know that is not the case, there is still this voice inside that goes through some weird process.

As you and others may remember, picture books play a major part of my therapy. I have struggled with the 'always love you' books. I have gone from being extremely angry, wanting to tear them up, and calling them liars to maybe it's possible that they are true, only to go back to maybe they are true for other people. Lots of those books also overlap with separation books. My most recent book is . In this book, when the mama is leaving, she uses the word 'must' go. For some reason using that word over need/want makes a difference for me in the sense that it doesn't feel like the person needs/wants to exclude me or get away from me. They have to do something that I cannot be part of even if they wanted me to. I know this is simple thinking; however, one of the reasons these books have worked for me is because of overall the simple thinking that is involved in these situations.

Not sure my point, it was an observation about myself that I thought I would share to see if it might help someone else.