Was this wrong? Abuse? Nothing?

So this is my second post. I deleted my first post because I got nervous my therapist is on here and would see - my username is similar to my real name. But all of your responses helped a lot. So on to my question. If not bothered by triggers, please please comment with opinion. Below mentions possible csa. I couldn't make a trigger box work so stop reading here! TRIGGER!!

I need help figuring out if what my mom did was wrong or not. If it was csa or not. I am not going to give additional info on my mom because I don't that to influence opinions so just going to write about this specific event. When I was around 11 she came in while I was taking a bath. She asked if she could look at my vagina to see if I had an infection. I don't know why she would think this. I told her no a couple of times but she ended up convincing me to let her. I stood up and she spread my vagina and ran her fingers up and down my labia a couple of times. Her face was close and she was staring. I felt very embarrassed and yucky. There was no penetration. Off and on since then until I turned 13, she would ask to see my breasts. She wanted to see what they looked like since I hit puberty. Each time I told her no. Finally I screamed at her and told her she was sick. She said, is that really what you think? And left. She never tried to look at me again. I am now 31 and still feel so gross and icky around her. She was often very controlling with me and I'm mad that she wouldn't listen to my no. I don't understand why my body feels that way about her and if it even has a valid reason to. What do you ladies think?

I can only say that I have two sons in pre-puberty age and I couldn't imagine that I would ever ask or even less, demand, to see or touch any of their private parts without a very clear reason and with their consent.

My own mother used to do also something in-consensual, which she probably thought was completely justified because she just failed to see me as a separate person. I don't feel gross around her but I definitely don't want physical contact with her. Also I have problems with my femininity and sexuality which I associate with memories and fantasies about how I perceived my mother's body as gross (and obviously because I am a woman as she is, my body must be similarly gross as well).

The point is that even if it wasn't overt and conscious abuse, your mother's behaviour still crossed your bodily boundaries and thus caused damage to you. So it was wrong. She might not think that way though because it's possible the she meant no harm. It doesn't change the implications her behaviour had on you though.

Thank you for replying! Your last paragraph makes a lot of sense. I'm just hoping to get a general consensus on what she did, normal, not normal, abuse? My therapist is male so I'm not comfortable going into detail about this. I'm so sorry you are able to relate.

I am a victim of CSA by a male relative so I can not relate from a personal perspective, except your description resonated with what some call "non-contact sexual abuse" that has been a part of the histories of some of the people I have worked with (I'm a lawyer, not a T, but work exclusively with people who have experienced trauma). Essentially sexual abuse that doesn't involve physical contact (in your case it did, albeit "medical" in stated purpose), but sexualizing a child in some way (e.g. treating her as a "partner" rather than a child; commenting on a child's body like "nice rack!", any way that brings sexuality in an intrusive way into the relationship between parent and child).

Intrusive is the word that comes to mind when reading of your experience-- from entering the bathroom without knocking or you giving permission for her to come in (at your stated age) to the touching to the pressuring you to reveal your body to her. Usually CSA abusers get a sexual charge from their behaviors and while it doesn't seem that you felt that was the case, her intrusiveness is a violation.

I think this is CSA, and I'd encourage you to talk about it with your T. I have a male t and my former T was female, and found no real difference talking about my history with either of them. Your current feelings make perfect sense to me.

Your mother's behavior was highly inappropriate and would be considered damaging to a child, so you do have a valid reason to feel how you feel. I don't see the need to put a specific label on it such as "abuse" because outside of the other context of your entire relationship with her it's hard to judge it in those terms. But I don't think calling it abuse is entirely inappropriate. What she did definitely violated your most personal space, which is your body.

These events, however, don't occur on their own, outside of other things, so, I am sure, there is much more to the story than just this, which you certainly don't need to explain here.

I would say, however, that if you don't feel comfortable discussing this with your therapist for whatever reason, then you need to find a therapist you would feel comfortable discussing it with, because this type of material is for therapy to explore and work on.

Thank you. Makes a lot of sense. I keep trying to minimize the bathtub experience by just assuming she was ignorant and didn't think my protests meant anything significant and maybe she just has boundary issues. But then I think about the times she was incessant on wanting to see my developing breasts just to see. Those two combined tell me something is off. So what would be her intent if it wasn't sexual? I personally think this was her attempt to bond. My uncle strongly thinks their dad molested her, the dad was abusive to all the boys but treated her like a princess. He would go into her room at night. So maybe she thinks that is how you bond with people? As I child, I would want non parental adults to see me naked because I thought that would make them more loving. So maybe I'm the sicko. Although I never ever wanted my mom to see me naked. Anyways I think her intent was to bond and have intimacy - not for sexual pleasure.

I think my attempt to figure out a label for it is because if my body is reacting this strongly over something that isn't considered abusive, I need to figure out why my body feels this way and maybe stop trying to keep my mom at arms length. I do feel guilty for barely having a relationship with her because it hurts her. But if what she did was abusive then I guess I wouldn't feel so guilty about our relationship. I just want to do the right thing and I certainly don't want to act unjustly towards my mom if she doesn't deserve it. I don't treat her badly, I just feel sick being close to her so I don't talk or see her often. And that hurts her.

Yes, this was abuse. And you are not alone, either. I suggest pandys.org if you are interested in hearing the stories of people with similar experiences. They have a forum, and one of the categories is Types of Sexual Assault Discussion. There is a thread there dealing with CSA perpetrated by the mother. I think you would relate to many of the people who posted about their own abuse.

Sure. It makes sense. I just want to say that, as a rule of thumb, never dismiss or minimize anything your body is feeling no matter how unreasonable it may seem to your intellectual mind. At any time, if there is any discord between your body and your intellect, trust the body always 100%. The intellect is deceptive, the "logic" can be twisted by emotional defenses that often hide themselves behind it. The body doesn't twist anything. It says it how it is, so if you learn to respect it and to listen to it, you will find out a lot of truth about yourself and your life situation you need to know, but this could be very painful.

The reason I hesitated to put the label "abuse" on what you've described is because it was given here outside of context, but that was your intention. I know intuitively that the context you have not given would, probably, allow me to see you as a victim of CSA because, as I said, things you have described don't happened just out of the blue without any connection to the entire family dynamic, and, I don't believe that what your mother did could've been done outside of the generally exploitative sexual or sexualized dynamic. But you asked to judge the behavior on its own and so I did.

Another indication of CSA in your case is the way your body feels. It totally matches the experiences of many sexual abuse victims who, like yourself, are not sure if they were abused or not. Bessel van der Kolk described this very well in his "The Body Keeps the Score", which I highly recommend you to read. The body doesn't "make up" stuff. If it tells you something went wrong in your relationship with your mother, trust it, even if you don't know how to define it.

As others mentioned, sexual abuse can also occur without physical touch. When the parent treats the child or one of the children as a partner meaning that they share way too much of their personal and inner life with the child, when they encourage this kind of emotional intimacy which normally takes place in a partnership, when the relationship with the child becomes more important that the one with the partner, the child gets traumatized in pretty much the same way that people who were overtly abused get traumatized and develop similar traumatic symptoms. They might even be in the worse situation than those who were touched physically because they don't know they were abused and don't understand what's wrong with them. Those who remember being touched physically, at least, know what caused their trauma. I am now reading "Covert Emotional Incest: the Hidden Sexual Abuse" written by a woman who was abused in that way. Highly recommend you and anyone who feels similar to read it. It's disturbing but eye opening. I think, there is another couple of books on this subject. Not much. Apparently, no one likes touching it..wonder why..not really..

Also, it'd help if you don't beat yourself up for any feelings you have in regards to this situation, and that includes feeling guilty for pushing your mother away. I am not saying that your guilt has a basis. It doesn't. If your body rejects her, it knows why and so the impulse to push her away is valid. But the desire to have a relationship with her is also valid. Just because she violated you doesn't automatically kill your love for her and attachment to her. It's natural to want to have a genuine, good relationship with a parent, even if he or she was abusive. I am not suggesting that you should try to have a relationship with her. I am only saying that there is nothing wrong with the desire to have a relationship. Suppressing or denying or judging it won't help just like suppressing or denying or judging anything you feel won't help. We, humans, are complex. We often experience many contradictory feelings at the same time, and they ALL are valid and deserve to be listened to.

I firmly believe that it was abuse. At the age you were, there was no justifiable reason for your mother to "spread your vagina and ran her fingers up and down your labia a couple of times."

Also, mothers who sexually abuse their children often do so under the pretense of medical or hygienic purposes. If you check out that thread I mentioned, you will read of similar stories.

Mothers are in a unique position because as primary caretakers, they legitimately have access to their children's bodies. The actions you've described are often called "covert abuse" because they are often performed under the guise of "normal" mothering. Her intent may reflect origins in a disordered desire for intimacy, but its expression is abusive.


If your mother was molested as a child, she was not treated like a princess. That may be the aberrant lesson she was taught and perpetuated.


There's a lot of confusion in your posts around abuse, intimacy. bonding, guilt that you really should talk through with your T. If you feel uncomfortable because your T is male, you should talk about that first. Your T should be able to suggest ways to talk about this that will feel less awkward for you.

Additionally, I think it is relevant to ask the question: if your father had been the one doing these things, touching your genitals at the age of 11, and asking to see your developing breasts, would anybody be in any doubt that it was sexual abuse? I think not. And I contend that mothers do not have special privileges regarding their childrens' bodies. There is no reason to afford them such. Unfortunately, people find it hard to comprehend that mothers commit this type of offense.

Mothers are still in most cultures the primary caretakers. That gives them both access and a legitimate duty to engage with children's bodies. Some mothers use this as an opportunity to abuse. To do so is not appropriate mothering.

I have read that when mothers are sexually abusive, it often takes this form: extreme intrusion under the guise of supervising hygiene. Another form of this abuse is sexually controlling behaviour: “checking to see” if the daughter is still a virgin or checking her underwear for evidence that she has been aroused or has had sex.

I think this is definitely abuse. Definitely not normal or okay. Even if she had a reason to think you had an infection, she is not qualified to diagnose it. (Even if she’s—god forbid—a pediatric gynecologist, it’s inappropriate to examine her child in that way.) Under normal circumstances a child that age is largely the boss of her body and her privacy.

I'm not a lady, but just giving that gave me the creepy crawlies and made me feel uncomfortable. Even if there was some credibility to the concern for infection, her actions seem to go way, way beyond that.

Also, totally ignorant but what kind of vaginal infection could you have at that age? Are yeast infections body chemistry or stage of puberty dependent?

I'm sorry, but no. OP's mother had no legitimate duty to fondle her genitals. The only mothers who have cause to touch their 11 year old's genitals must do so because the child is a paraplegic or intellectually disabled and cannot attend to her own body.

You are absolutely right about the princess comment, let me rephrase that. I was meaning it in a sense that her dad beat up her brothers physically but she was given gifts and appeared to be treated kindly and gently. Her brothers thought she was treated like a princess. So my thought was she saw her brothers getting beat up and yelled at but she was treated in a more "gentle" and "loving" way. So my opinion was that as a little girl, she may have mistaken a molestation as a form of love. I only say that because that is how I thought as a child. That if an adult saw me naked or touched me, It would be nurturing. But I do know if my mom was molested, she was definitely not treated like a princess.

I agree. People who have had their boundaries violated so early by their closest attachment figures often need a long while to comprehend what boundaries even are. Also I can imagine a process whereby you split hairs trying to find a “rule” here. Like “but if an 11 yo were disabled her mother would have to wash her genitals, is that abuse?” Or “but my friend’s mom went into the bathroom with her and helped her figure out how to use tampons, is that abuse?”

The point is that good enough mothers respect their children’s bodily integrity, dignity and privacy. How that looks exactly may vary from culture to culture or family to family and there will always be exceptional situations but the spirit of respecting the child’s dignity and autonomy remain.

I think she may have said yeast infection when I asked why.

I don't think I'm splitting hairs at all. I am disturbed that OP has described actions by her mother that are definitively abusive, yet a discussion is being had about how some mothers touch their children in non-abusive ways. OP said no, yet her mother insisted on performing an impromptu fondling of OP's genitals. That is not ok.

OP, I hope you don't feel invalidated by some of the comments on this thread. Your mother shouldn't have done what she did.

Another resource you might be interested in is MDSA.

Anyway, I'm clearly triggered by all this, so I'm going to step away and hopefully be able to stop myself from looking at it again. OP, please feel free to PM me anytime.

I can tell you were getting triggered. Im so sorry that is happening for you. I really appreciate you putting so much thought into my post even thought it's hard for you. I don't feel invalidated, I think many times people are just hesitant to put a label on something because there are two sides and different intentions. In my case I am looking for a label in hopes of clarity whether the lable is abusive, not abusive or just innapropriate. I know there will be many posters who aren't going to want to label that and that's totally ok. It does add to my confusion a bit where some are like yes! That's abuse. While others are hesitant to call it that. But I also understand that is how a forum works and I appreciate so much that everyone is putting careful thought into it. I wish there was a clear answer but I'm not sure there ever will be. I have no desire to have a relationship with my mom, what contact I do have with her is for her benefit. I feel nothing towards her other than yucky feelings and sad for what has happened to her.

One of my abusers was a woman. I was much younger than 11, and at a much younger age I knew what she was doing (under the guise of “helping me” physically) was not normal. She wasn’t my mother, and I think that is why my alarm bells went off at such a young age. I knew how my own mother would have handled things, and this wasn’t it. In my case, it was absolutely abusive, physically and sexually; I have no doubt about that. And I am pretty certain she knew what she was doing was abusive based on things she sad and did at the time.

I don’t know if your mother’s intention was abusive, but her actions were certainly inappropriate in dealing with an 11-year-old. If she had a legitimate health concern, a mother would normally ask questions about symptoms, and if she felt she needed to look (for instance, if there was a question about a yeast infection), she might guide the daughter to perhaps use a mirror and describe what she sees, etc. rather than doing the visual inspection directly. She would ask permission and if the daughter was uncomfortable with that would talk about getting a doctor’s appointment. How your mother handled this isn’t “normal” parenting technique, perhaps because she herself didn’t know herself (that cycle of dysfunction).

Whatever the case, it left you feeling uncomfortable and unsafe around your mother which makes a lot of sense. I guess I just want to validate to you that your mother’s actions weren’t typical and your response seems understandable. You, innately, understood it wasn’t normal and spoke up to protect your privacy and safety.

I suspect that because you’re triggered you’re perhaps not seeing my point or FKM’s. We largely agree with you. I actually wrote my splitting hairs comment before I read yours and they cross posted. It was not directed at you. What FKM and I were saying is that mothers care for their children’s bodies (including their genitals) pretty much throughout the world. And that NOTWITHSTANDING that culture of care, NOTWITHSTANDING the closeness and familiarity and love we have for our children’s bodies and the responsibility to keep them clean and healthy, the great majority of us can ALSO fully respect our children’s ability to attend to their personal hygiene past a certain developmental stage.

BUT if your entire notion of love and boundaries is murky, what seems obvious to most (eg performing vaginal exams on your 11 yo daughter is abusive), can seem like a grey area. And thus the comment about the OP splitting hairs trying to understand this grey area through “rules” when in fact it’s not about rules as such, but about an attitude of honour and respect toward the child.