[LonesomeTonight]

Thanks for the comments, DP. I just feel so vulnerable right now, because I was so open and raw in Friday's session. This feels like such a silly thing, but on Friday afternoon, I emailed T a link to the song I was referencing, saying "In case you're curious." He typically says something within 24 hours, though less so on weekends if not urgent. So rationally, I'm saying to myself "Whatever, it was just a throwaway email, I shouldn't worry about it at all." But there's also the super vulnerable part. And I realize that the email wasn't just about "here's this song," but maybe more of a checking in after an intense session. But I also didn't say that, so I'm sure he's taking it at face value and will maybe just say something in session or possibly tomorrow morning? (he did that once before with a nonurgent Sunday email)

Assuming we have session, as we're getting rain, but part of our county is getting snow, and I'm worried school could be closed. And he normally comes in when it is (despite having a school-aged son), but recently he had to reschedule me to a different time because he didn't realize his son had a half-day. And Friday's session was partly contingent on schools staying with a delay rather than closing. So maybe whatever plan he had in place that let him always come in even if schools were closed, unless it was a blizzard, isn't there anymore? (whether his wife, a neighbor, family member, etc.). So if schools close, unsure if we'd necessarily have session. (I hate the not knowing, also regarding my D--my H will work from home, so it's not a problem on my end, but I just want my D to know what's going on.) And I know rationally/intellectually that everything is fine. But my more emotional/young part just wants to reconnect with him.

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

And I realize that the email wasn't just about "here's this song," but maybe more of a checking in after an intense session. But I also didn't say that, so I'm sure he's taking it at face value and will maybe just say something in session or possibly tomorrow morning?

I think this is why I often don't understand your T. He seems to take everything at face value (or even need it explained to him) whereas most therapists I have seen are always looking for deeper hidden meanings. Sometimes it drives me crazy when my T does this, but sometimes it's astonishingly useful. I think your T's approach also makes it harder for him to meet your needs without you hitting him over the head with them. It seems like it could be a useful exercise in asking for what you need, or it could be frustrating that you always have to ask, especially if you don't know what you need.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I think this is why I often don't understand your T. He seems to take everything at face value (or even need it explained to him) whereas most therapists I have seen are always looking for deeper hidden meanings. Sometimes it drives me crazy when my T does this, but sometimes it's astonishingly useful. I think your T's approach also makes it harder for him to meet your needs without you hitting him over the head with them. It seems like it could be a useful exercise in asking for what you need, or it could be frustrating that you always have to ask, especially if you don't know what you need.

It's kind of a double-edged sword. In some ways, it's helped me, in that I've gotten better as asking what I need of both T and other people in my life. Because I can't expect other people to read my mind either. So it's helped with my communication skills.

At the same time, I feel like he should know me well enough by now that the email had *some* meaning. Now, I did include it as a response to the earlier email thread. There's a chance that maybe he didn't see it, or noted that it wasn't urgent and he intended to get back to it later, then has had a busy weekend. Or maybe he doesn't want to encourage me to send random emails--but I also imagine he'd be direct about that, like tell me in session. But he's been so good at replying to emails in the past, even relatively minor ones.... Again, even if he'd just said, "Thanks, I'll try to listen when I have a chance," that really would have been sufficient. Even just "thanks." I wasn't expecting a reply with an analysis of the song. If he doesn't reply in any way before session, I'm not sure whether to even mention it. But obviously it's bothering me. But I also don't want to make it into some big thing. Sigh. Maybe just a brief mention? Or wait to see if he mentions it in session?

ETA: And ex-MC said at one point that he thought any email I sent him was basically looking for reassurance, no matter what the topic was. Which kind of annoyed me. Because yes, sometimes I was looking for reassurance, but not every time. So he may have read *too* much into things. I'd prefer some sort of happy medium, like, "Hm, LT sent me this email, I wonder what's going on there? I'll send some sort of acknowledgment, then we can discuss in session."

[DP_2017]

He also isn't big into music from what you said, so it probably isn't a priority to him. I honestly wouldn't even bring it up, it would feel kinda pressure like to him possibly. Just let him say something if he has gotten around to it, if no, then that's ok. Share the lyrics out loud or whatever.

And part of therapy is being vulernable so while it's a **** feeling, it's good when you feel it, it means something is working.

People share songs with people all the time, so for most people it's not gonna be a big deal. I probably wouldn't even have gotten around to it myself yet, mostly because I'm super lazy about music LOL....

I'm sure he will be there, he seems to go often, and if no, there's always Tuesday. Just breathe.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

He also isn't big into music from what you said, so it probably isn't a priority to him. I honestly wouldn't even bring it up, it would feel kinda pressure like to him possibly. Just let him say something if he has gotten around to it, if no, then that's ok. Share the lyrics out loud or whatever.

And part of therapy is being vulernable so while it's a **** feeling, it's good when you feel it, it means something is working.

People share songs with people all the time, so for most people it's not gonna be a big deal. I probably wouldn't even have gotten around to it myself yet, mostly because I'm super lazy about music LOL....

I'm sure he will be there, he seems to go often, and if no, there's always Tuesday. Just breathe.

Oh I know. I wasn't expecting some big response from him. Just "Thanks" would have honestly sufficed. I wasn't expecting him to give me some analysis of the song meaning. I guess maybe it also felt sort of exposing to share the song with him? Plus we had a brief discussion about how once I shared a song over email with ex-MC and he just never acknowledged it at all. And T was like, "He never even said anything about it?" So that makes me think he'd acknowledge it in some way. Trying my best to breathe, I know if tomorrow doesn't work out, there will be another day. Just figure that Thursday will be mainly about my D's annual IEP (Individualized Education Plan) meeting that's happening Friday. So I'd rather process this stuff in a separate session.

[DP_2017]

If you emailed it to anyone else and they didn't reply right away or at all. Would it bother you or is it just him?

Its just a song. I hate making it sound meaningless because it has meaning to you but it's seen differently in general than sending a regular email asking for stuff etc

It probably isn't a issue to him, again he isn't big on music and maybe he felt pressure with it. I personally would not bring it up and see if he does. I know you probably will though but try to not take it personally.

Maybe this t is not the kind of t to do random emails with. Maybe it is better to just generally discuss what the song means to you regardless if he hears it

Example.... if a friend told you about a movie that meant something to them but say you were not big into movies or a specific kind of movie but the person told you verbally how the movie impacted them, is that still meaningful? I'd say so. Songs are personal especially and different songs mean different things to people. Just tell him why its so important, even if he chooses not to listen and he has that choice, he can still hear your story and see the emotion. For therapy especially that should be enough

Try not to put standards on people so much. Not replying to a song link is not a huge thing. There could be many reasons one of which could be maybe he is saving it for session

[toomanycats]

My T also takes literally everything at face value omg it gets so annoying sometimes lol. I have to explain everythinggggg and he asks questions about details that make me want to scream. He's sooo intellectual.

[DP_2017]

Hope you have a good session tomorrow and I'm sure it will still be on. Good luck

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

Hope you have a good session tomorrow and I'm sure it will still be on. Good luck

Thanks, DP. The fact that it's just rain now is encouraging.

[LonesomeTonight]

I think maybe I figured out part of what's going on with me. I think when I told him that I wanted to be "all in" with him, I hoped for a particular reaction. Something about him appreciating my putting my trust in him. Maybe saying he'd be "all in" as well. I don't know. But instead I got his saying that maybe he'd be an asshole, which would lead me to leave, and that I should accept my ambivalence. So maybe that's what some of this is about? I mean, there's sort of continual conflict in personality types, in that I tend to be more of an idealist, I guess, while he's more of a realist. Maybe that's what's coming into play here? I don't know...

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I think maybe I figured out part of what's going on with me. I think when I told him that I wanted to be "all in" with him, I hoped for a particular reaction. Something about him appreciating my putting my trust in him. Maybe saying he'd be "all in" as well. I don't know. But instead I got his saying that maybe he'd be an asshole, which would lead me to leave, and that I should accept my ambivalence. So maybe that's what some of this is about? I mean, there's sort of continual conflict in personality types, in that I tend to be more of an idealist, I guess, while he's more of a realist. Maybe that's what's coming into play here? I don't know...

That makes a lot of sense. In Gottman terms, he didn't really return your "bid."

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

That makes a lot of sense. In Gottman terms, he didn't really return your "bid."

Thanks, that's interesting, because he has cited Gottman to me before and says he's trained in that method for marriage counseling (which he also does). So maybe if I use that terminology, he'll get it?

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks, that's interesting, because he has cited Gottman to me before and says he's trained in that method for marriage counseling (which he also does). So maybe if I use that terminology, he'll get it?

Maybe, although that would center the therapeutic relationship in a way that doesn't really jibe with his style.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

...I think maybe I figured out part of what's going on with me. I think when I told him that I wanted to be "all in" with him, I hoped for a particular reaction. Something about him appreciating my putting my trust in him. Maybe saying he'd be "all in" as well...

Or something? I dont think a guy can say hes "all in" to a gal without it having certain implications. Which came first, the thought about trust, or the joke about "all in"? Arent you kind of putting him into a position of HAVING to be an asshole, by flirting with him and making him reject you? So who is being the butt? That is, who is the angry one?

This is why i like this this guy. He acknowledges the anger is there every day. He doesnt deny it and save it up to smash into a wall.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Or something? I dont think a guy can say hes "all in" to a gal without it having certain implications. Which came first, the thought about trust, or the joke about "all in"? Arent you kind of putting him into a position of HAVING to be an asshole, by flirting with him and making him reject you? So who is being the butt? That is, who is the angry one?

This is why i like this this guy. He acknowledges the anger is there every day. He doesnt deny it and save it up to smash into a wall.

Oh, I wasn't using "all in" as a joke--I hadn't even considered that to be honest...I certainly wasn't flirting with him in that regard. (Besides, I don't normally flirt with people while sobbing...) I think I only actually used the phrase "all in" once, and it regarded me.

I'll just have to figure out different phrasing to use today, I suppose. "Committed"? "Dedicated"? I feel I can't use that in regard to him though, because he would say he already *is* committed/dedicated to me. And I believe he is. I think I want him to want me to be committed to him, in a therapeutic sense. Does that even make any sense? I don't know...It's like I want him to be like, "Just trust me, have faith in me." Why am I looking for that? What's that about?

And I guess he's just being honest/realistic in his "Maybe I'll be an asshole and you'll opt to leave thing." But hearing those words doesn't help my insecure/preoccupied attachment. It's just making me *want* to keep one foot out the door. Maybe it would do the opposite for him, because sometimes I feel like his brain is the opposite of mine (which can be very helpful at times). So he's trying to use that technique on me, when really it just makes me want to run away. Well, I suppose I've rambled my way into a few possible, nonsexual-innuendo-laced topics for today...

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I think maybe I figured out part of what's going on with me. I think when I told him that I wanted to be "all in" with him, I hoped for a particular reaction. Something about him appreciating my putting my trust in him. Maybe saying he'd be "all in" as well.

It seems to me that this "particular reaction" that you're hoping for is thematic with you. You've said it most recently about sending the song link (hoping he'd say "thanks") several posts back. Maybe when you are upset with him, it's because he says something that doesn't jive with what you want in return.

Like una, I think therapy isn't really an appropriate place for this kind of balance, unlike a romantic relationship. But what would it mean if your expectations are that he would react to you like a romantic partner, which is the implication of following a particular model of marriage counseling.

I think your desire for change is very palpable from reading your session. I think that is so critical to making the changes you want and it's an exciting time for you. I wonder if your need for a "particular reaction" is something that might hold you back, because I don't think relationships work well or deeply when one partner has to conform to the expectations of "particular reactions" of the others. In my past I think that I could have a relationship with my own expectations and be consistently disappointed, or I could have a relationship with a person who has real and honest reactions to me and who also makes an effort to give me what I need when I can clearly articulate it and when they feel that's something they can do. To me real communication is a back and forth dialog. It was probably the place where I learned that not getting the reaction I wanted was okay, and understanding what I wanted and why I wanted it was more important than actually getting it.

[DP_2017]

Anne made some good points

Also i think with your desire for him to meet all your expectations is going to keep coming up as a roadblock. You can't change him. You are not supposed to

He is there to help you. Maybe his ways are not ultimately going to work for you because he can never meet all your expectations for him

He's accepted you as you are, what would it take for you to do the same? If something as small as no reply to a song link bothers you this much, maybe it's time to really consider going forward if he is going to ever be enough for you as a t? Regardless of how attached you feel, you need to think what type of t is best for going forward in your journey for the changes you want. Just stuff to consider

Good luck today

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

It seems to me that this "particular reaction" that you're hoping for is thematic with you. You've said it most recently about sending the song link (hoping he'd say "thanks") several posts back. Maybe when you are upset with him, it's because he says something that doesn't jive with what you want in return.

Like una, I think therapy isn't really an appropriate place for this kind of balance, unlike a romantic relationship. But what would it mean if your expectations are that he would react to you like a romantic partner, which is the implication of following a particular model of marriage counseling.

I think your desire for change is very palpable from reading your session. I think that is so critical to making the changes you want and it's an exciting time for you. I wonder if your need for a "particular reaction" is something that might hold you back, because I don't think relationships work well or deeply when one partner has to conform to the expectations of "particular reactions" of the others. In my past I think that I could have a relationship with my own expectations and be consistently disappointed, or I could have a relationship with a person who has real and honest reactions to me and who also makes an effort to give me what I need when I can clearly articulate it and when they feel that's something they can do. To me real communication is a back and forth dialog. It was probably the place where I learned that not getting the reaction I wanted was okay, and understanding what I wanted and why I wanted it was more important than actually getting it.

You make some good points here, and I know you (and I think others) have talked about my expectation of certain responses from people (T and others) before and how I can feel hurt or disappointed if I don't get what I'm looking for. The whole "Thanks" thing is really that he's never not replied to an email from me before that says something beyond "thanks" like for his response. (As in, I email him, he replies, I reply with "thanks for the response"--I certainly don't expect a response to that.) But this had other content, so I think it's just a case where it's a change in his pattern, which concerns me (see: hypervigilance). It's entirely possible that he glanced at it when I sent it, intended to send some brief reply later, then got busy and it just slipped his mind. And then he saw it today and figured he'd be seeing me and we could just discuss it then if I wanted. Or he may have figured it wasn't a big deal at all. Which, as I said, on the surface, it wasn't.

I think I'm getting better at dealing with not getting the reaction I want from people, including T--especially because he frequently doesn't give me the reaction I'd want or expect. But I think it's when I'm feeling particularly vulnerable, like after Friday's session, that it bothers me more and makes it more difficult to deal with. Because it triggers stuff like rejection and abandonment fears. It may seem sort of ridiculous that the lack of a one-word reply can trigger stuff like that. But it's not about the word. Maybe it's more about...being seen and heard? Still being accepted after I poured my heart out and sobbed in front of him (I mean, I often cry in front of him, but this was pretty intense, like, crying so hard I can't talk)? I suppose these are things I can address today. Like how to better deal with not getting responses I want when I'm feeling vulnerable. (And it probably didn't occur to him that I'm feeling vulnerable, because it's not like I said it in the email. Ex-MC would have just known that though--maybe that's part of what's hard here...)

[Anne2.0]

I don't characterize this pretty complex issue as that you have to learn to deal with not getting the reactions you want. I think that's pretty simple and brings to mind a toddler in the grocery store learning that a tantrum for a chocolate bar is not going to happen. I do think that's a piece of it, and also learning not to punish people for not giving you the reactions you want, or responding otherwise in anger.

I think the deeper issue is understanding the expectations you have and why you have them, what they mean for you, and how your expectations shape your communication and the nature of your relationships. I think it's tied to your focus on your T or the other person in the relationship, maybe keeps you stuck in this focus, and turned away from what is in your heart and mind. I don't mean to knock you over the head with this, just saying what it seems like from this side of the computer screen.

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

I don't characterize this pretty complex issue as that you have to learn to deal with not getting the reactions you want. I think that's pretty simple and brings to mind a toddler in the grocery store learning that a tantrum for a chocolate bar is not going to happen. I do think that's a piece of it, and also learning not to punish people for not giving you the reactions you want, or responding otherwise in anger.

I think the deeper issue is understanding the expectations you have and why you have them, what they mean for you, and how your expectations shape your communication and the nature of your relationships. I think it's tied to your focus on your T or the other person in the relationship, maybe keeps you stuck in this focus, and turned away from what is in your heart and mind. I don't mean to knock you over the head with this, just saying what it seems like from this side of the computer screen.

I think there are some good observations here, and I also think this kind of approach comes from a very logical, adult, left brain kind of mindset. I have my own pattern of attaching to certain kinds of people, and it's so clearly rooted in childhood stuff that it might as well light up in giant neon letters every time it happens (which is embarrassingly often!).

That drive to keep trying to get your needs met can't be thought away with logic. My T would definitely have responded to the YouTube link email, and if she had forgotten, we could talk in depth about why I was upset about it, without her telling me that I was being unreasonable or that other people in my life wouldn't appreciate me being upset (because I wouldn't be upset with other people in that circumstance!). We just had a long talk today about how upset I was that she wasn't there for me in session while she was out sick, even though we did talk on the phone. There was no shaming for the child-like feelings, and there was no exasperated sense from her that I want things she can't provide. I ask for things, she provides what she can within her own boundaries/limits, and we can process any discrepancies together without her telling me that my feelings are wrong.

I think the key for me is getting the needs met in a really consistent way while also using my adult intellect to process how unsettling it is for the child-like needs to actually get met. Then I can fully understand the childhood deprivation and my worthiness (that I should have gotten things I didn't) in order to grieve and make sense of things from an emotional standpoint. Otherwise I'm just trying yet again to wallpaper over the gaping emptiness. The real trick is in the integration of the feelings from the past with the thoughts of today.

Disclaimer: I fully recognize that this approach isn't for everybody, but it seems to me to finally be a path toward deep, meaningful change now that I am willing to put in a ton of work and have a really dedicated T. I'll update in about three years if this doesn't actually work, though.