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  #26  
Old Feb 22, 2019, 06:15 PM
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divine1966 divine1966 is offline
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Originally Posted by HD7970GHZ View Post
Hi SarahSweets,

Thanks for the question.

In short, the healthcare system exists to help people. Whether we are talking about mental health, physical health and or elderly, even though healthcare is designed to help people - it unfortunately harms a lot of people too. Like the 3rd leading annual cause of death in the United States has been medical errors... Those types of numbers. It is astronomical.

The big picture mentality is this: We need a healthcare system. Due to the vast amounts of money spent on keeping the healthcare system afloat, as well as the vast amounts of mistakes that are made, there are many things that must take place.

One of these things is alteration of medical records. It is a means of safeguarding professionals if they are to make mistakes. Alteration of medical records is common and normal behavior in healthcare. Even though it is illegal, unethical and corruption - they do it all the time. It is literally normalized deviance.


Many healthcare professionals come to see it as a necessary evil to keep the system afloat and maintain a public facade of do no harm - however, overtime, this kind of behavior leads to a toxic workplace culture rife with abuse and atrocity. Once these healthcare professionals realize they can control the only evidence that exists - it opens the doors to all kinds of bad.

There are many lawsuits against healthcare professionals when they harm someone. IF every healthcare professional was held accountable - there would be an even larger shortage of healthcare workers and the healthcare system would crumble from having to paying out millions for lawsuits. So - the healthcare system operates under parameters that operate above the law. Alteration of medical records are their way of protecting both themselves and their system. It is seen as a necessary evil.

I hope this answers your question. I have personally experienced this in the healthcare system multiple times - it is literally normal behavior for them. They live under the illusion that it is self-preservation. Unfortunately it is the same system that protects them that also allows abuse to go on behind closed doors.

Alteration of medical records can be used to cover-up mistakes, to distort facts and create an ideal defense package in a court of law, to destroy the credibility of a victim and or survivor, and last but not least, to write malicious content such as false diagnosis and or any other creative distortion that is necessary to keep a whistle-blower from speaking up.

Thanks,
HD7970ghz
My husband had a coworker, actually in a management position in health care field, who altered patient’s medical records to cover her own butt. She was immediately fired. He wasn’t sure if her license was also in danger as she was gone quickly. But the whole thing was a very big deal.

Most certainly there are medical professionals who would alter medical records to cover their butts but it’s not encouraged or looked at as a necessary evil. If one gets caught, it’s a major issue as not only it’s immoral but could easily cause them their job and mainly their license- their livelihood, investigation of the department and the entire facility often follows and it reflects terribly on the entire medical facility. So most medical professionals don’t look at it lightly as something common and normal.
Thanks for this!
HD7970GHZ

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  #27  
Old Feb 22, 2019, 06:28 PM
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What you are describing is bizarre behaviour. This kind of hypervigilance is often misplaced and eventually harmful to the person who subscribes to it. There are less intense, less harmful (to the client) and more legally sound ways of challenging unethical practice.
Thanks for this!
HD7970GHZ
  #28  
Old Feb 22, 2019, 06:35 PM
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HD7970GHZ HD7970GHZ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divine1966 View Post
My husband had a coworker, actually in a management position in health care field, who altered patient’s medical records to cover her own butt. She was immediately fired. He wasn’t sure if her license was also in danger as she was gone quickly. But the whole thing was a very big deal.

Most certainly there are medical professionals who would alter medical records to cover their butts but it’s not encouraged or looked at as a necessary evil. If one gets caught, it’s a major issue as not only it’s immoral but could easily cause them their job and mainly their license- their livelihood, investigation of the department and the entire facility often follows and it reflects terribly on the entire medical facility. So most medical professionals don’t look at it lightly as something common and normal.

Thanks for sharing this, I agree with some of what you are saying.

Unfortunately, not enough healthcare professionals are caught doing this. I know from doing a lot of research that this behavior is unfortunately normalized. It does happen, a lot. Doesn't mean everyone will do it but there is a process to handling situations where potential litigation and or complaints could arise.

Those who are caught are definitely penalized. Unfortunately many are not penalized enough and continue doing it. The way the system handles it is by blaming and shaming the culprit and making them out to be a single bad seed. (As in, it is not a cultural or systemic problem). This stuff truly is systemic and it really is getting worse.

Thanks,
HD7970ghz
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  #29  
Old Feb 22, 2019, 06:43 PM
missbella missbella is offline
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Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
Can those of you who have mentioned altering notes/records share more about that? It like never occurred to me, and I am not quite sure if I am understanding. Do you all mean blatant lies about you? Or is it half/truths? Or is it elimination of facts?

I didn't bother to get notes, and my therapist told half-truths in response to the grievance I filed. Never mind he would have needed to be clairvoyant for some of the knowledge and assessments he claimed. He won the case. He also seemed to think I was thriving under his magnificent care, only to slip from reality and his beneficent grasp at the end.

I've read other reports of therapists faking notes when there's a dispute.

That said, I strongly feel that clients deciding their therapist unethical best gather evidence and leave as quickly as the dynamic is recognized. My therapist did the most damage after I concluded he was venomous; I got no benefit from trying to right the relationship.
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Thanks for this!
HD7970GHZ
  #30  
Old Feb 22, 2019, 06:50 PM
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divine1966 divine1966 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HD7970GHZ View Post
Thanks for sharing this, I agree with some of what you are saying.

Unfortunately, not enough healthcare professionals are caught doing this. I know from doing a lot of research that this behavior is unfortunately normalized. It does happen, a lot. Doesn't mean everyone will do it but there is a process to handling situations where potential litigation and or complaints could arise.

Those who are caught are definitely penalized. Unfortunately many are not penalized enough and continue doing it. The way the system handles it is by blaming and shaming the culprit and making them out to be a single bad seed. (As in, it is not a cultural or systemic problem). This stuff truly is systemic and it really is getting worse.

Thanks,
HD7970ghz
I’d still not refer to it as “common and normal” . It’s like saying killing is common and normal because some murders remain unsolved.
Thanks for this!
ArtleyWilkins, elisewin, feileacan, growlycat
  #31  
Old Feb 22, 2019, 07:03 PM
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HD7970GHZ HD7970GHZ is offline
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Originally Posted by divine1966 View Post
I’d still not refer to it as “common and normal” . It’s like saying killing is common and normal because some murders remain unsolved.
I respect your choice to agree to disagree.

I suppose without going into detail, I will offer you a single piece of evidence to read. It is a peer reviewed article written by a PH.D nurse named Kathy Ahern. I recommend reading it in order to inform and protect yourself against these things. Professionals are penalized for advocating for change and speaking up against these matters. Ethical violations are unfortunately a cultural and systemic problem. Ask any healthcare professionals 1 on 1 and off the record, most will acknowledge these things if they've witnessed or experienced it. A lot of them are afraid to speak up because they are treated as whistleblowers if they do.

Here is something to entertain this topic. Please read it. It is written from a healthcare professionals perspective and acknowledges the systemic issues and what happens to those who advocate and speak up. (Professionals are victims too).

https://nursing.ceconnection.com/ovi...1000-00014.pdf

Thanks,
HD7970ghz
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  #32  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 03:21 AM
feileacan feileacan is offline
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I read this paper and it describes the types of issues that can happen. However, this paper definitely does not provide any evidence that changing patients records is "common and normal". I think this paper describes important concepts and does a good job in explaining them but it does not give any evidence what so ever about how frequently or infrequently these things happen. This evidence simply isn't there.
Thanks for this!
ArtleyWilkins, divine1966
  #33  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 04:21 AM
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ScarletPimpernel ScarletPimpernel is offline
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Changing records is probably the least important unethical thing a T can do (imo). It's the stuff done to the client that is where the real harm is. And many times, you don't realize the harm that's being done until after the fact.

Btw, if the T is smart, they just won't document the unethical things... "Yes, today I abandoned my client and she over reacted. Etc." That doesn't happen.
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  #34  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 04:54 AM
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luvyrself luvyrself is offline
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There were three attorneys in my family before my dad died.
Although I am furious at the low quality of care from therapists and pdocs (with their 15 minutes for most pdoc sessions dictated by insurance companies)here in the States, I would recommend seeing an attorney before trying any of this. The original poster is informed enough to warn against making assumptions about what the laws are. What doing this would cost most of us in terms of stress would not be worth it. I think that really flagrant behavior should be reported and yes, that would require documentation. For simply ineffective practices such as no goal setting, we should make our wishes known repeatedly, say that we’ll have to move on if they cant even help us set goals, and then change doctors if they don’t comply. We should all join advocacy groups such as NAMI and DBSA and donate money to them if we can, and come out of the closet and speak out against stigma once w are retired or don’t have a career to protect. Wish there wasn’t still so much prejudice that I have to limit speaking out in that way, but sorry, after all the school shootings, prejudice is still alive and well. Progress has been made however, thanks to various celebrities coming out.
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  #35  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 05:14 AM
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HD7970GHZ HD7970GHZ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feileacan View Post
I read this paper and it describes the types of issues that can happen. However, this paper definitely does not provide any evidence that changing patients records is "common and normal". I think this paper describes important concepts and does a good job in explaining them but it does not give any evidence what so ever about how frequently or infrequently these things happen. This evidence simply isn't there.
Hi feileacan,

I seem to recall having trouble with you in the past... Thanks for posting.

In bold: no one said that the link I provided would prove that alteration of medical records is common and normal. What it does show is that a toxic culture is normal and that those who speak up are victimized.

**In response to your post I will provide numerous accounts of alteration of medical records as evidence that this behavior is normalized, though all one has to do is google, "alteration of medical records," and do a bit of their own research.

Thanks,
Hd7970ghz
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  #36  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 05:42 AM
feileacan feileacan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HD7970GHZ View Post

In bold: no one said that the link I provided would prove that alteration of medical records is common and normal. What it does show is that a toxic culture is normal and that those who speak up are victimized.
I disagree. Nowhere in the paper does it say that this toxic culture is normal. The paper describes the concepts and no one claims that those things don't happen but simply raising an issue does not prove that those things are normal (i.e. frequent, standard, happening all the time etc).

Similarly, talking about murders does not mean that murder is normal (frequent, standard, happening all the time).
Thanks for this!
ArtleyWilkins, divine1966
  #37  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 06:27 AM
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divine1966 divine1966 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HD7970GHZ View Post
I respect your choice to agree to disagree.

I suppose without going into detail, I will offer you a single piece of evidence to read. It is a peer reviewed article written by a PH.D nurse named Kathy Ahern. I recommend reading it in order to inform and protect yourself against these things. Professionals are penalized for advocating for change and speaking up against these matters. Ethical violations are unfortunately a cultural and systemic problem. Ask any healthcare professionals 1 on 1 and off the record, most will acknowledge these things if they've witnessed or experienced it. A lot of them are afraid to speak up because they are treated as whistleblowers if they do.

Here is something to entertain this topic. Please read it. It is written from a healthcare professionals perspective and acknowledges the systemic issues and what happens to those who advocate and speak up. (Professionals are victims too).

https://nursing.ceconnection.com/ovi...1000-00014.pdf

Thanks,
HD7970ghz
Oh I know many health care professionals, I speak to them off record. that’s why I brought up an example of one of them (among many) who had an experience with ONE person falsifying records. Maybe there were some who weren’t caught of course but medical professionals are so afraid of losing their jobs and licenses that messing with records wouldn’t even enter their minds. It’s quite easy to lose a job and state license in health care (particularly nursing) so routinely going around switching and messing medical records just isn’t what takes place.

Now of course there are unethical people out there and article has some good points that things do happen but I don’t see anything in that article suggesting that it’s common or normal. It just describes the issue. We can find articles on every topic on the planet as well as google whatever concept and we will find stuff about everything. But it won’t make it common occurrence or normal.
Thanks for this!
ArtleyWilkins, DP_2017
  #38  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 06:36 AM
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divine1966 divine1966 is offline
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Originally Posted by HD7970GHZ View Post

Those who are caught are definitely penalized. Unfortunately many are not penalized enough and continue doing it.
HD7970ghz
So you are saying some people were not penalized enough and continue doing so. How do you know? What do you mean by “enough”? Are you saying they weren’t fired? Were they written up and suspended perhaps? So when they came from suspension, are you saying they started falsifying records again? Do you know anyone in person who continues doing that after insufficient penalty? Otherwise how do you know?
  #39  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 06:45 AM
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divine1966 divine1966 is offline
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Originally Posted by HD7970GHZ View Post
Like the 3rd leading annual cause of death in the United States has been medical errors... Those types of numbers. It is astronomical.

HD7970ghz
Do you have records of that? For many years it’s been heart, cancer and accidents/injuries from accidents and then other illnesses follow. I’ve never seen “medical errors” being third leading cause of death in the US. Do you have statistics on that?
  #40  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 07:02 AM
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HD7970GHZ HD7970GHZ is offline
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Originally Posted by divine1966 View Post
Do you have records of that? For many years it’s been heart, cancer and accidents/injuries from accidents and then other illnesses follow. I’ve never seen “medical errors” being third leading cause of death in the US. Do you have statistics on that?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnb...n-america.html
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  #41  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 07:05 AM
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HD7970GHZ HD7970GHZ is offline
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Originally Posted by divine1966 View Post
So you are saying some people were not penalized enough and continue doing so. How do you know? What do you mean by “enough”? Are you saying they weren’t fired? Were they written up and suspended perhaps? So when they came from suspension, are you saying they started falsifying records again? Do you know anyone in person who continues doing that after insufficient penalty? Otherwise how do you know?
Hi Divine,

While I appreciate you challenging this topic, I simply will not be able to answer all the questions in the world.

What I will say is that I will not have words put in my mouth. So if you need clarification about any of what I am saying, feel free to read my survivors of unethical therapy threads.

I have personally experienced this. More than once. In more than one organization. This is unfortunately a normal thing in healthcare and I highly recommend doing your own research. That is the only way you will become satisfied with your questions.

Thanks,
Hd7970ghz
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"roller coasters not only go up and down - they also go in circles"
"the point of therapy - is to get out of therapy"
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  #42  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 07:06 AM
ArtleyWilkins ArtleyWilkins is offline
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Originally Posted by divine1966 View Post
Do you have records of that? For many years it’s been heart, cancer and accidents/injuries from accidents and then other illnesses follow. I’ve never seen “medical errors” being third leading cause of death in the US. Do you have statistics on that?
Studies do hold this out. Various studies show the CDC’s reporting method for cause of death to be flawed. That said, not all medical error is due to errors of commission (deliberate error) nor do the studies say records are falsified. What tends to happen is cause of death is reported through diagnostic billing codes and medical error isn’t a billing code (my oversimplified explanation).
  #43  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 07:07 AM
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HD7970GHZ HD7970GHZ is offline
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Originally Posted by feileacan View Post
I disagree. Nowhere in the paper does it say that this toxic culture is normal. The paper describes the concepts and no one claims that those things don't happen but simply raising an issue does not prove that those things are normal (i.e. frequent, standard, happening all the time etc).

Similarly, talking about murders does not mean that murder is normal (frequent, standard, happening all the time).
Who said anything about murder?

I will not engage in toxic arguments. Thanks for your opinions, I can see where you are headed and I simply will not engage in it.

P.S. Do some research. I recommend it.

Thanks,
Hd7970ghz
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"roller coasters not only go up and down - they also go in circles"
"the point of therapy - is to get out of therapy"
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  #44  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 07:08 AM
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HD7970GHZ HD7970GHZ is offline
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Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins View Post
Studies do hold this out. Various studies show the CDC’s reporting method for cause of death to be flawed. That said, not all medical error is due to errors of commission (deliberate error) nor do the studies say records are falsified. What tends to happen is cause of death is reported through diagnostic billing codes and medical error isn’t a billing code (my oversimplified explanation).
Do you work in healthcare ArtleyWilkins. Sounds like you do.

Thank you for posting this info I actually didn't know about billing codes - I will have to research this.

Thanks,
HD7970GHZ
__________________
"stand for those who are forgotten - sacrifice for those who forget"
"roller coasters not only go up and down - they also go in circles"
"the point of therapy - is to get out of therapy"
"don't put all your eggs - in one basket"
"promote pleasure - prevent pain"
"with change - comes loss"
Thanks for this!
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  #45  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 07:11 AM
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HD7970GHZ HD7970GHZ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divine1966 View Post
Oh I know many health care professionals, I speak to them off record. that’s why I brought up an example of one of them (among many) who had an experience with ONE person falsifying records. Maybe there were some who weren’t caught of course but medical professionals are so afraid of losing their jobs and licenses that messing with records wouldn’t even enter their minds. It’s quite easy to lose a job and state license in health care (particularly nursing) so routinely going around switching and messing medical records just isn’t what takes place.

Now of course there are unethical people out there and article has some good points that things do happen but I don’t see anything in that article suggesting that it’s common or normal. It just describes the issue. We can find articles on every topic on the planet as well as google whatever concept and we will find stuff about everything. But it won’t make it common occurrence or normal.
In bold: that is exactly why they do alter medical records. Because they make so many mistakes and don't want to lose their jobs.

Thanks,
Hd7970ghz
__________________
"stand for those who are forgotten - sacrifice for those who forget"
"roller coasters not only go up and down - they also go in circles"
"the point of therapy - is to get out of therapy"
"don't put all your eggs - in one basket"
"promote pleasure - prevent pain"
"with change - comes loss"
  #46  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 07:14 AM
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divine1966 divine1966 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins View Post
Studies do hold this out. Various studies show the CDC’s reporting method for cause of death to be flawed. That said, not all medical error is due to errors of commission (deliberate error) nor do the studies say records are falsified. What tends to happen is cause of death is reported through diagnostic billing codes and medical error isn’t a billing code (my oversimplified explanation).
That’s quite interesting! I was aware of medical errors most certainly being on of the causes of death, but have never seen it being “third” leading cause. Good point about diagnostic/billing codes. Thank you
  #47  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 07:16 AM
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divine1966 divine1966 is offline
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Originally Posted by HD7970GHZ View Post
In bold: that is exactly why they do alter medical records. Because they make so many mistakes and don't want to lose their jobs.

Thanks,
Hd7970ghz
How do you know if that’s why “they” are falsifying records? Is that your opinion or you have some type of records where those who falsified something did it for that reason?
Thanks for this!
DP_2017
  #48  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 07:21 AM
ArtleyWilkins ArtleyWilkins is offline
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Originally Posted by HD7970GHZ View Post
Do you work in healthcare ArtleyWilkins. Sounds like you do.

Thank you for posting this info I actually didn't know about billing codes - I will have to research this.

Thanks,
HD7970GHZ
No. I am an educator and work a great deal with research and validity. It is important that studies are reported for what the statistical data actually states and not misinterpreted or misrepresented as meaning something other than they state. Additionally, I have a lifelong, intense history of dealing with the medical community due to serious and regular illnesses in m family requiring constant working with medical specialists. Several members of my family are medical specialists. I also am degreed in special education, working regularly with psychologists, therapists, diagnosticians, and other service personnel who often deal with students with mental illness.
  #49  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 07:28 AM
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divine1966 divine1966 is offline
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Originally Posted by HD7970GHZ View Post
Hi Divine,

While I appreciate you challenging this topic, I simply will not be able to answer all the questions in the world.

What I will say is that I will not have words put in my mouth. So if you need clarification about any of what I am saying, feel free to read my survivors of unethical therapy threads.

I have personally experienced this. More than once. In more than one organization. This is unfortunately a normal thing in healthcare and I highly recommend doing your own research. That is the only way you will become satisfied with your questions.

Thanks,
Hd7970ghz
Oh I only asked because you didn’t say that “you think or you believe or you have personal experience”, it was more of a firm statement: that’s what happens. So I thought perhaps you have actual info on hand.

If you believe that what happpens because you had personal bad experience then I do understand and sympathize. I still don’t agree on making sweeping generalizations but I totally understand why you’d feel like making generalizations. Painful experiences often do shape how we think. I hope things get better for you. Bad experience can shake someone to the core. Hang in there
Thanks for this!
DP_2017
  #50  
Old Feb 23, 2019, 07:28 AM
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HD7970GHZ HD7970GHZ is offline
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Hi all,

I just found this peer reviewed article.

Alteration of Medical Records Submitted for Medicolegal Review | JAMA | JAMA Network

It was written in 1992 by a Medical Doctor. I have ordered the article. The portion of the abstract I could obtain is written as follows:

Quote:
THE PRACTICE of altering medical records out of fear of litigation may be an increasing problem. This topic has received no recent attention in the medical literature. Physicians' alterations of research data1,2 and attitudes toward changing records to improve insurance collection3,4 have been reported, but no documented cases in the medical literature describe altering the records of patients who sue physicians. This review describes the medicolegal aspects of four cases involving altered patient records. The discussion following the cases focuses on some practical considerations about making additions and changes to medical records.

I have practiced medicine in academic centers for 20 years. Because of my academic orientation, several state medical boards, hospitals, malpractice insurance companies, physician groups, and even a few plaintiffs attorneys have sought my opinion on cases involving pending or potential litigation. In the last 5 years, there has been a disturbing increase in the proportion...

Thanks,
HD7970ghz
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