Can therapy really help with this?

What about DBT? That's a more functional approach that may help.

Apart from therapy I can only see trying at something small and safe and doing ok at it. Then you find worth in yourself that you did that. All these tiny bits add up. Or think my friend, whose judgment I respect, has liked me for 7 yrs - so there must be something to like.

It's hard though.

I struggle with same thing. I can totally relate. Thanks for starting this thread.

Ok, you know I absolutely adore my T and to be honest we are making a lot of progress. He has done far more with me in three months than others did in three years. Being in therapy for a month or two about self worth and attachment is just going to be a waste of time. I am pretty convinced at the moment that my T could walk on water but to expect the kind of growth you are wanting in such a short time frame is to set both you and the T up for failure. My Ts answer to “how long is this going to take?” Is “it takes as long as it takes”. My guess with him, at the rate we are going is 12-18 months maybe more... but I also don’t seem him as the type of T that wants a client dependent on him forever... so I know it is not going to be one of those things where 6 years from now I am still in this forum posting the same exact posts about the same T.

People arent in relationships BECAUSE they have value, because someone else chose them for their value. They stay in relationships because of inertia. Because they are afraid of being alone. Because being alone is worse than whatever torture theyve experienced from being with another person.

For some of us, being alone is BETTER than the torture of being subjected to the whims of another person. Its like a cat asking to go in and out the door. I hope im smarter than a cat.

Yeah, this was going to be my response too. There is no quick fix to changing deeply held beliefs, even when you know the beliefs are irrational and unhelpful. Short-term therapy isn't going to cut it. Surface-level CBT is only going to be like a Band-Aid, not something that can heal on a deep level (as opposed to something like schema therapy, which has roots in CBT but is much more comprehensive and relational).

My T compares this kind of therapy (like changing a belief that you're unlovable) to a river wearing a new path in rock, very slowly over time. So long-term therapy might fix it, but short-term definitely won't. You (and I) didn't get this way in a few months, so it will take more than a few months to change it. There are probably other ways to change things like this, but there are no guarantees regardless of the path you choose. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Just a note: I have this problem too, so I empathize.

Do you think people lie to you when they say they care?

Something my T has pointed out to me with losing connection/a loss of relationship is that I focus on the sadness and the loss of it, and not the fact that I had the connection in the first place, and all the positives it did involve. She was completely right, because I do that,and it seems so do you.

So instead of saying "Well T proved it all, I can't believe in anyone's caring," try and think "The connection we had while we had it was good. There were positives that was associated with that connection (whatever they may be)."

I know it is really hard and easy to focus on the loss, believe me.

Unfortunately, I don't think its a short process.

Yes I do. I know where it all comes from... but it doesn't mean I know how to stop it. T had a really hard time, it was over a year of being with him, even with our chummy relationship, before I decided to let him care if he really did...

Ya I think Baby T tried to say something like this once about the movie Inside Out, and how people kind of lose focus on the real message in the end, that ALL the emotions were ok to have with certain memories. I mean I get it and I struggle often going back and forth with the care/not care aspect of things. It is really hard but one big reason too, I've blocked a lot of my memories with T since we ended. It was too painful to deal with them.... so somehow it's mostly just the bad stuff that swirles in my mind

I kinda assumed it was a more long term thing. I am not willing to do long term (years of therapy) ever again.... so I'll have to just deal with it in my own ways.

I'm hoping that getting to do more things outside the house this spring will at least better my mood and I wont think of stuff like this as much.

Hi Una, I was reading Dyer back then. The book with the biggest influence on me was Pulling Your Own Strings.
OP - I think therapy can help but I don't know of any short term ways. It is a core issue.

No one is smarter than cats.
Dogs - yes. But not cats.

I think it depends on if you want to change it.
Is it something you want to change?

I may have a different history than you, but I would say when I entered therapy in my late 20's, early 30's (2 therapists in succession for about 5 years total, and a support group) I didn't trust anyone, was estranged from my family of origin. For me the trust issue came from a place where I didn't think anyone cared about me or loved me, because the people who said they did failed me in maybe the biggest way in childhood, by failing to protect me from a close and trusted family member. I think that was at least one of my core issues, and while I don't think it was solved perfectly and completely, it was enough for 15 years until different things brought me to therapy. But I did therapy again because it worked for me, not because I still have big trust issues.

So I agree with those who say it's probably not a quick process, but I don't think you have to decide or have proof that therapy will help, or make some rigid and definite decision that you will only do x number of weeks or whatever. Why don't you take it week by week, or do some other frequency that suits you, and re-evaluate every week or so to see if it's worth doing the next session? For me, I've told my T since the beginning 10 years ago that I was only committing one week at a time. I've taken breaks, some due to me, some due to his health or schedule.

It's just not necessary to commit to long term therapy or make the question or the next step bigger than it has to be. While i don't think therapy is right for everyone and every issue, something that is fundamentally interpersonal in nature seems unlikely to get better in the way that PTSD/anxiety/depression can be improved (in my case) by meditation, tai chi, acupuncture, exercise, self care, a lightbox, herbal supplements/tictures/homeopathy, and other things I think better than therapy. At least I feel that these things have probably helped me more than therapy itself. But issues relating to people are probably not the same, except I did benefit from nearly a decade of not interacting with my family of origin. It was also beneficial when I reconnected with them, so I'm not advocating this as a solution unless your family of origin creates problems for you, then I think stepping away can be good.

Maybe the real question is, do you want to live like this, with this kind of disconnection and distrust in people? If not, I'm not sure what you really have to lose except money and time in trying therapy for another week or whatever you want to try. Decide every week if you want to go the next week or skip or quit. You can unquit and start again if you change your mind. I don't think the decision to try more therapy has to be either long term or nothing.

I thought your wording here was interesting. Why do you say you "let" your T care about you? I don't think there's any "letting" about other people's feelings - people feel what they feel. The question is do you believe them when they share their feelings. What would it mean if your T cared about you even though you didn't believe it?

What makes you so special that everyone else in the whole world has value except you?

Do you really think that the ending of a relationship negates everything that came of it? Nothing good came of the friendship you had in kindergarten with the kid who shared the crayons - or that, since you haven't spoken with a former co-worker since you left your last job, all that time you spent ranting together about your crazy boss was wasted, was not cathartic, and therefore they didn't care about you, your feelings, how you were doing, or feel empathy/sympathy without condescension?

Surely it is possible that your T cared about you and his life circumstances changed?

Relationships are not black and white. The greys are hard to believe, especially when we only ever look at the extremes.

Are you able to see, perhaps with a logical part of your mind, how black and white your thinking is - even if, simultaneously, you believe deep down inside that it is all true?

My experience is that learning these things is really hard, really painful, and takes a long time - which was true for learning the opposite too, for all that I was less conscious of it. I have had many experiences where I learned that no one actually cares about me, so if I want to change some of those deep-held beliefs I will have to have at least as many experiences where I consciously learn that I have value, I am cared about, etc. A function of therapy, for me, is to have someone constantly pointing out those experiences - because it's far too easy to see black when there's grey and white out there too.

Yeah i got to that point in my rant and i wasnt sure what my point was. If cats or i were smarter.

There is a lot of truth in here and in fact my T said some of this very stuff to me. I am def a black/white thinker.... and I know I need to work on that. I've been trying with baby T in regards to my grief over T. I try not to get so depressed but also not so excited or hopeful but somewhere in between. He redirects me often with in between views on things.

I'm not special, I think I'm worthless crap and a mistake. It's hard to BELIEVE anyone would care or love that kind of person. However... I realize this is deeply about my own self worth, which I know I need to work on

I say let because I feel like I had to accept it. I spent so much of the time "Testing" him or needing reassurance because I couldn't accept it. It seemed like it was all part of the job and him just being nice. So that's what I mean, I eventually changed and allowed myself to accept it.

I really don't care about any of my former co workers or classmates LOL. I don't even think about them. However... my T TRIED to tell me that similar concept that ending doesn't negate what was.... I want someday to really believe that, I'm working on it.... but I am often torn between... was the care real or because he had to? Because he really cared or because I paid him? My mind goes insane over it if I let it.... but again I've been trying to be more middle of the road about it all... because it's less stress on me.

I know there's a lot of work I need in learning to love who I am... even though I know my family never will. I have to stop wishing for something that wont happen. It needs to be about me. I get that.

Thanks for another insightful post. I am open to seeing him again at some point or a new T.... I haven't written off therapy all together, I just don't want to be doing it years and years. I want freedom from therapy. I like your idea of one week at a time... it fits my trying to live more for today thing I am working on.

Also...Of course I want to change....but again if long term therapy is the only way, then no. I need to work on my self worth in other ways, and maybe be able to change this mindset when I change my views of myself

As you know I am a big fan of long term therapy but it isn’t for everyone. And therapy isn’t the only way to make changes in your life. The only risk to not doing therapy is that you aren’t pushed to do different things or try new approaches in your real life. I think you are doing some of those things and the more you try the more likely you will hit on something that works for you. There is however the risk of doing the same old same old that leaves you feeling terrible.

Yep, I for sure trying new things, pushing my comfort zone a bit more. Trying to stay busy.

It seems to me that your willingness to even try another therapist, and what you're doing to improve the quality of life/self care/do things you enjoy and that are fulfilling, is indeed great progress, something to be celebrated.

This thread got me thinking about something interesting.....I've always had issues with women.... and I am not able to emotionally connect with any woman. Not even my best friend.
I was thinking, because if my friend says she loves me or cares, I usually laugh. I 100% don't accept that sort of thing from women, it always seems like "That's nice, thanks for trying to be nice and pity me" or it seems condescending. I am actually ok if they leave my life. I've never cried over a female friend or family member who moved away or died etc.

With men.... I think it actually scares me more... because I AM able to connect with them easier/deeper.... and it's like if they tell me they care or love me... It's like I'm unsure of what to do with that... how do I not act stupid and change that? How do I keep them around? So I use my lifelong skills with women, and keep them at bay

With T, I allowed myself to feel that closeness, to try it, as scary as it was.... Yes he's gone but it's like... I'm trying to convince myself the care wasn't real... or he didn't care, because it's so much easier than... "He's gone and that's all over" but what if he did really care? What if in his way he did love me? I actually loved the feelings I had around him and craved more and more of it.... the fear of the closeness didn't last long. The fear of losing him was because I didn't want him to stop caring.... which I'm convinced he has... it's just something I have to come to terms with going forward.

Anyway it's interesting how it's so easy for me to emotionally detach from women and so I truly don't believe they care or love me. With men, it's like, in my mind, there's a chance they actually could and I don't know how to deal with it.

It's also interesting that growing up... I always "Related" more to men in TV and women.. even now I do. I bonded more with male teachers.... I would say I'm not close with anyone in my family but I feel more comfortable with the men. It's just really interesting how the male/female thing I've always had with jealously issues (only with women) could also be a part of why i don't feel value etc.

This is really complicated, ha! For sure a long term issue but maybe I can spread it out with many breaks in between, and just try to keep busy and find ways to learn to love who I am and allow others, both male and female to love and care about me. Just take that risk like I did with T.

My experience with myself and others close to me is that we can very easily slip into a mode where we sabotage what we want most. Maybe "sabotage" is too strong a word for, for example, laughing when your friend says she cares. But it is a pushing away from what you want, probably from fear of being hurt. If you can convince yourself you are "100% okay" with people leaving you, then why not just push them towards the inevitable.

One way to make change would be to stop doing this and accept what she offers you. Consider saying it back or letting her know something else you appreciate about her friendship.

It makes sense to me that this can be different with men for whatever reason. I think that your ability to relate to anyone doesn't ultimately have very much to do with gender, but how much you are willing, as you say, to take a risk to connect to someone. For me I do not think that rejection or someone leaving is worse than being in the moment with a person I can connect to. I've had plenty of rejection and relationships ending. Like death, it is part of the natural cycle of relating to people, and very survivable if painful.

Perhaps some of it is that I've lived long enough to see people leave and then come back. Sometimes I've left and then come back. But relationships for me have come to have a "door closed, window opened" kind of phenomenon. Sometimes the end of one relationship has made time and space for another.

I like the way you are considering things differently than you did in the past. I've never missed my rigidity once I've loosened up a little, and learning to be more flexible doesn't seem to have been a mistake. Good luck with it all.

I know it's unfair of me to classify all women the same... but I always have. It's something I need to work on. I see them as untrusting, judgemental and better than me. All of them. I only am able to "talk" to women more openly online because I don't actually see them. In person it's only surface type convos. I can't actually tell my friend I love her, because I don't. I only care about her a small amount. However yes I can work on trying to accept/believe it... although in my mind I keep wondering why she is still around. She should have been sick of me by now. (See? issues galore lol)
I do push people away indeed. It's why it was rare for me with T to allow and try the closeness... but I did try to push him away too.... at least for a while. I can never know for sure if he loved me or cared or I mattered (beyond job requirements) because he never said any of those things... but I felt them. So I try to go with at least to some degree, for a while in my life, yes. Does he now? Not likely... but he's moved on and that's ok. He should. Being stuck in the past does no one any good.

I made a choice a few weeks ago, during my recovery, to allow myself to TRY something different and not let grief and depression turn me into dark despair. It's hard for sure. I'm not good at positive thinking and It's hard for me to "grey" area think rather than black/white but I am trying. I looked at it this way... in 2 yrs when I'm allowed to contact him, if I do...I sure don't want to be the same pathetic loser he knew me as. I want to be better (in a good way) and if for whatever reason at that time, I don't reach out... my life would still be better. So it's a win win to go at things this way.

I know there is some real deep and core issues around women... thanks to 3 women in my family who I still have near daily contact with, and my HS bully, who was so evil--I dropped out of HS... and that has all deeply effected my ability to trust and feel safe with any women but I tend to be friends with women over men because there is the "safe" aspect of not emotionally connecting, of feeling detached. So when they leave... it's not painful. Just another day.

I am gonna try to work on my issues... with a combo of therapy, and putting myself out of my comfort zone in life.... and just staying distracted with things. I also need to work on my self worth, the program I signed up for in LA will help with that very much but it's sadly not until September but I expect it to be truly life changing for me.

I have had these, too, though not a HS bully.

I don't have contact with any women in my family any more. My mother is dead and the conflict about how her care should go -- it's complicated.

I have had good experiences with women in a support group over the last 5 years, as I have said. So, having experiences that contradict what my nervous system was "set" for has helped. But, it was extremely difficult allowing or getting myself into those situations to begin with. I found out I did have some social antenna, just hadn't used them much (got broken off, to protect me from picking up stuff it would be dangerous for me to know in my family?), similarly with my gut feelings around social situations.

So, I think it can be done -- but therapy as currently constituted and conceived doesn't address the situation IMO. Didn't address mine, anyway.