Have you tried to get your therapy notes?

True, but when it comes to therapy notes, the benefit is in getting insurance reimbursement. It's impossible to write a client-friendly therapy note that can also be used for insurance purposes.

I can't really speak for self-pay.

It doesn't matter what the notes are written for. Sharing such sensitive information with insurance is more of a justification to see your notes, not less, so you could see the information your insurance company was given.

I'm confused about if you're trying to convince me of something here. You can say I have a right until your face turns blue, but that doesn't mean I actually have that right in practice.

I get the feeling you think my opinion is that people shouldn't get their notes. I have never said that. All I said was that the consequences would make it difficult for therapists to be insured.

Sure, most people might realize a clinical person is writing clinical notes that may sound clinical-like.

The thing is-you can find out from medical notes that you have cancer and fall on cement and get a concussion and so be harmed. Other information can harm you-you can learn of a family member's death and faint and fall to the ground. People are harmed every day from information as we are adults and information is part of life. This doesn't justify someone shielding it from you-who are they to decide what's best for you?

I do see your point but it's patriarchal for someone to decide what information an adult should be shielded from.

Anyway-I'm just killing time here tonight, so no stake in this! My T doesn't even take notes....

No, that thought didn't really cross my mind.

With the information access in this day and age, people expect more information and trends are moving away from uninvested others-normally those profiting off you-controlling it all. The thinking you are illustrating is largely reminiscent from patriarchal healthcare. I think that context is important.

Why are you debating me, then? I'm not expressing how I personally think things should be, just saying how they actually are and the thinking behind it (which has nothing to do with me).

Most people actually really don't understand when they see a clinical note written in clinical jargon, often utilizing all sorts of ridiculous abbreviations and acronyms. I'm not likely to be convinced by you that it is otherwise than I have seen for myself with my own two eyes. But I don't expect you to take my word for it.

And I really don't appreciate you saying that stating the facts of how things work right now is an example of "patriarchal thinking." That's like saying that people speaking about racism in America today is an example of racist thinking. I understand that the system is patriarchal, but to attribute that to me is what I mean when I say it seems like you think I believe things that I've never even said.

ETA: I am talking about what IS, you are speaking the language of ideology and idealism - hopefully the future. I don't disagree with anything you've said, except perhaps that people would understand clinical documentation.

The patriarchal comment isn't about you personally, it's the way the system was set up. It's realistic rather than idealistic. (I think I'm also stating the way things are....)

I'm not sure why you think I didn't believe you about clinical notes being clinical. I've read enough of my own (medical) notes to understand what you are saying.

Anyway, I thought our conversation was fine. I didn't mean to upset you.

Hi everyone,

I just want to gently interject and offer some insight - as I fear this thread may be taking a turn into unnecessary conflict spirals that could potentially drift from the central purpose of the thread.

First and foremost this is a support forum. While we all have different opinions and are welcome to disagree, bare in mind the way in which we approach disagreements and our tendency to spiral into conflict. Conflict can be handled effectively in private messaging and in my opinion - it should be on forums where there is such a diverse populace with a wide variety of triggers and sensitivities.

Let's face it, it is SO easy to be misconstrued on forums. Especially when conversing about topics that we are so passionate about, and especially when we are all so sensitive and even more-so when 80% of communication is nonverbal and we rely entirely on nonverbal writing to communicate with one another. I cannot count how many times I have misinterpreted emails or text messages or messages on forums in my own life - and if I am quick to react (rather than taking time to process and respond) I risk creating unnecessary conflict and harming others inadvertently, and often times myself.

While it is okay to disagree, I think a lot of members would prefer to be messaged privately when something becomes heated. Not trying to be a hero here - I am guilty of these things too - I just felt like offering some insight that maybe could help.

Thanks,
HD7970ghz

Notes are to protect the taker - not the client. They benefit the therapist. There are ways to get the notes but it can take a bit. If you want them badly enough then my suggestion would be to hire an attorney.

I agree with this 100%. They are indeed a means to protect the professional and their organization the professional works for. They are NOT meant to protect the client. This is the problem with legal health records - they are still shrouded in mystery in general and SHOULD be a topic of EXTREME interest for everyone.

Health records should not be legal records. They should merely be notes and considered another persons opinion no different than if we were to write notes after our sessions. Unfortunately, it is the professional licensing that somehow grants mental health professionals the ability to write legal record - which in itself is EXTREMELY concerning and a conflict of interest, especially if and when they have harmed a client and litigation or complaints are filed.

Everyone is scared of being subpoena'd. They do craftily alter and falsify notes in order to protect themselves and their professionalism in the notes. I have experienced this more than once and I am researching this very problem.

Just wanted to add: EVERYONE SHOULD GET THEIR SESSION NOTES, PERIOD!

Thanks,
HD7970ghz

I wouldn’t want mine.

My relationship with my therapist felt deeply personal and connected. It would be really painful to contrast that with cold clinical notes and pathology.

Hi PurpleMirrors,

You make a very valid point - but you don't have to read them, you could just get copies and rest in knowing they will not be altered after the fact should there ever be a supboena. The point is, they are legal record, no different then your birth certificate or your ID, tax forms, etc. In my opinion notes should be accessible to clients AT ALL TIMES without the 30 day wait period.. Knowing what is done to health records has opened my eyes to this. But I understand and validate your concerns - they are valid and completely understandable.

Thanks,
HD7970ghz

Why "everyone"? I've no need or desire for them. I know what is in them. I have to use for them.

Perhaps you meant, everyone who feels they need their therapy notes should have access to them?

Because they are legal record. Because you have every right to have them. Because they can be altered and falsified. Because they can be used against you in custody battles and even in some cases block you from crossing borders. (USA has been known to block Canadians because of content on health records). For example:

Canadians with mental illnesses denied U.S. entry | CBC News

Suicide profiling at US border investigated - National | Globalnews.ca

It's Been Revealed That Canadians Diagnosed With Mental Health Issues Are Put On A List That Is Shared With The FBI And US Border Patrol - Narcity

Down the rabbit hole we go.

Apparently the APA even stepped in about this and has been working hard to abolish this kind of missuse of personal health information on police databases.

Psychiatric Associations Release Statement on Cross-Border Sharing of Mental Health Information

Thanks,
HD7970ghz

I’m never going to sue my therapist and don’t have much stock in her clinical observations in the first place, so I’m fine leaving them buried in the abyss. I think you’re assuming the notes weren’t skewed and screwed up from the get go. I’m hoping she tosses them after the 7 year waiting period and any record of our interactions are permanently eliminated.

Well heck, there are legal records concerning my life in all sorts of aspects, not just therapy. I'm not legally disabled due to mental illness nor was I ever. My kids are grown. I don't travel out of country. There is nothing in my health record that would even remotely be of issue. (Yes, I know what is in my health record concerning my mental health).

Again, why do I want a copy of all of that? I haven't been in therapy or treated for anything remotely mental health related in going on 7 years. Heck, my records are probably headed to the shredder at this point.

ArtleyWilkins,

You are entitled to your opinion and I welcome it. But I refuse to engage in arguments with you. This is beginning to drift from the topic of the thread into a territory that will be ineffective and therefore, I will no longer engage in this conversation with you.

However, you are more than welcome to private message me about this.

While I understand your inability to agree with the importance of obtaining your health records, do not rule out the fact that many of us do have things written about us that are both misinterpretations and or lies. This can greatly impact future treatment in healthcare systems because those notes are typically transferred and shared between past and future healthcare professionals. If something is misconstrued - false diagnosis, misinterpretations or whatever - it can keep someone from getting the help they need. Classic examples are, "treatment resistant," therefore they are unable to enter programs for help. Another is, "drug seeker," in which case physicians no longer prescribe medications even if and when the client genuinely needs it. In extreme situations people have died as a result of poorly maintained health records and and clerical errors. At one point someone wrote that I was allergic to all the major pain killers... Pretty disturbing considering I am not. Would they have given me pain killers if I was in a serious accident and could not handle the pain? Probably not. I have heard of situations where individuals go in for surgery to have a right leg amputated only for the surgeons to amputate the left leg instead - this is due to negligence and inaccurate health records. In fact, I do believe in that situation they have also been caught trying to alter the health records to cover-up their mistakes. Say you have a divorce and custody battle and your therapy session notes are subpoena'd and your former therapist had written something like, "concerned for clients safety and anger towards others, potential risk to the safety of others." Good luck trying to battle that in court. That could ruin your chances of getting custody of your kids. Or something more inadvertent, like word choice; a therapist uses the word, "paranoid," instead of, "anxious." Your credibility is now in question if you ever land yourself in a situation where someone has harmed you and you have to defend yourself, or even if you are a witness and you have to provide testimony. These situations can and do happen - simply googling this stuff will show you the importance that health records can have whether we like to admit it or not. This is how legal records work and this is why it is important to obtain them and read through them. We as patients can request addendum and changes to health records if we see anything that is false. Doesn't mean they will change it, but they can add a note and correct it with an edit.

Considering the weight that legal health records can have in MANY different areas - including insurance - which has already been alluded to earlier in this thread - there are many different reasons why obtaining your records is important whether you choose to believe it or not. It is a means to protect yourself if in the event something was to happen that was outside of your control, and believe me, those situations can and do happen.

Thanks,
HD7970ghz

Hi PurpleMirrors,

The reason for getting your health records does not only come from wanting or needing to sue your therapist. Those are legal records that could be used against you for many different things, not just lawsuits.

I am not assuming anything. I am sharing my insights from my own personal experience (and many others who have experienced this as well), in which case my notes were in fact altered and falsified with malicious material, even before threatening a lawsuit. (I threatened a lawsuit because of what was written in my charts). You can take my advice or leave it - but that is your choice and I am not forcing you to do anything. I hope you can appreciate my kind regard for your opinion and I would only hope for the same.

Some organizations do have a waiting period for how long they usually hold onto records, however, I have heard that in some circumstances, records are held for a longer duration. That is up to an organizations discretion in some cases. At least that is what I have heard from individuals who work inside the healthcare profession in Canada.

Thanks,
HD7970ghz

For clarification, I never stated what you say in the bolded section above. You are misrepresenting my point which is simply: your absolute statement that "everyone should . . . PERIOD" is a broad generalization that simply isn't true for most people. You've had a bad experience. I get that and understand your hypervigilance about this, but the broad generalization to "everyone . . . PERIOD" (no exceptions apparently) goes a bit too far for most people. I don't disagree that, particularly if you have questions about the professionalism of your medical personnel or if you tend toward disputes concerning competency with other people based on your history, having your own copy of your records may be important. Also important if you are working on filing for disability, etc. But for the average person who is stable in employment, without relationship issues that would end up in court, without mental health issues that have required treatment for many years, etc., having those files is generally not needed.

I agree with this - though might have worded it differently.

In cases where therapy ends badly, I can see how having access to notes might make the experience feel worse. Realistically many of us might not be able to just not read them. I really don’t want to know how my therapist perceived me or my issues.

In cases where clients wish to move on, I think leaving notes behind offer a sense of catharsis.

I don’t judge those who want or need their files - but don’t agree that it’s universally necessary or healthy for all.

So i have access to what i think are billing notes after every session. Every provider i see in network (pcp, dermatologist, etc) has acess to them which sucks. My dermatologist asked me if OCD causes me to pick at my face. And I was like how do you know i have OCD, my file says GAD (i know thos because when my pcp prints the aftercare page GAD comes up as other diagnoses and also GAD is my billing diagnosis). He got kinda sheepish so I'm pretty sure he read the therapy notes.

Anywho...It's basically a summary of what we worked on. The sucess of it. The status exam (well dressed, eye contact, mood, etc). And 1-2 sentences like: processed clients dislike of malls, client became tearful when recalling memory of trauma at mall age 6, agreed to process further next session.

I'm guessing she shreds hand written notes - i think they are mostly so she can track EMDR to kind of identify patterns and associations.

I think if you want your notes get them! Be prepared to feel a little embarassedand unfomfortable. I'm not saying they are bad, but it is a little uncomfortable at times to know what someone else wrote about your emotional experience.

Just curious - what country do you live in?

Here in the US, I was under the impression that private information such as this could only be shared with a client’s written consent.

I find this a bit chilling....

USA. Im guessing either i signed something saying it's ok or it's because my insurance is made up of core providers who are all employed by the insurance company? Not sure how to desribe it without giving away my location and employer - but I see almost all my doctors in the same building and they are all full time employees for the company who provides my insuance. The trade off is my therapy is free! I'm supposed to have 20% co insurance by my therapist's rate is less than the plan's max so free to me!

My guess is he wasn't supposed to read those notes, because I'm sure OCD only shows up in my chart in the notes.

What kind of attorney would one hire? How much would something like this cost? And what was with the likelihood be that I would win?