[Lrad123]

I have a lot of drama in my imaginary relationship with my T. I’m referring to conversations I have with him in my head in the days between our sessions. Our in-session relationship is much more stable.

Much of the “drama” that I experience is transference, I suppose, and I’m not really sure if it’s something I should bring up with him or not.

For example, right now, I’m thinking that I’d like very much for him to think I’m interesting and likeable and worth spending time with. I mean that on a deeper level and not in a superficial way. I want him to look forward to seeing me and our conversations. I can still feel the feeling I felt as a 5th grader when I tried to share something important with my father and was filled with sudden shame as I realized I had nothing of value to offer and felt foolish for thinking it could ever be otherwise. He didn’t say a word, but I felt his disapproval and irritation that I had wasted his time. I feel that same thing with my T sometimes, so I guess it’s transference. I guess it makes me feel a bit paralyzed or inhibited or “walls up” when I’m around him. So what do I do about it? Is it even important? Is it worth saying anything? Or should I just wait and see if it passes.

I have a fantasy in my head of storming out of the room mid-session (which is not something that would be typical of me) and I think this is related to imaginary conversations between my T and myself where he says something a bit dismissive or distancing or subtly rejecting. Obviously I don’t want this to happen but I’m clearly thinking about it. I want to know that he’s genuine and not faking his part of the relationship. I don’t think about this 24/7, but it does pop into my mind now and then. Do I bring it up or is it just a distraction?

[Rive.]

It is clearly impacting you (walls going up, feeling inhibited etc.), so yes it would be worth bringing up.

It could lead to fruitful discussion or new insights.

[Lrad123]

I feel like I already know how it would go. He’d normalize my feelings and say something like, “of course that makes sense based on your history,” and then the conversation would fizzle out and I’d be left feeling sort of exposed and unsatisfied.

[Rive.]

He might surprise you by having another type of response than the one you are anticipating.

But even if he did normalise etc. you could then tell him what you just said i.e. that you are left feeling exposed and his answer is unsatisfactory...

Your feelings are most certainly valid, so I would share them and take it from there.

Imaginations or fantasies, especially the accompanying feelings, are ideal therapy topics. They reveal our inner world.

Exploring why you aren't satisfied with your Ts response to your disclosures is good therapy content too.

[MoxieDoxie]

I could never discuss my day dreams with him.

[NP_Complete]

I just had this very discussion with my therapist this week. Well, I actually wrote it down and he read it in session. Then we spent two sessions on it basically. I feel extremely exposed. Still. Last session he told me that even if he felt that way, he wouldn't tell me if I was his favorite client or if he would want to be friends with me if he wasn't my therapist. I felt so mortified by this conversation, or rather speech, because I shut down at that point and mostly didn't recover for the rest of the session. He seems all thrilled that I shared this with him, but I'm wishing I could take it all back. If you think you can tell him about your imaginary relationship without feeling shame, I'd say go for it because he'll probably appreciate that you told him. I may arrive at the place where I'm okay with what I shared with him, but I'm not there yet, so think about what your reaction might be and try to put some safeguards in place first. Maybe talk to him about talking about it first. I kind of wish I had done that more thoroughly than I did.

[Lrad123]

NP - that sounds tough. I don’t necessarily need to be “special” or his favorite or anything like that. I just don’t want him to dread seeing me. I just have a hard time being open with him and I feel like I might be kind of disappointing. Getting conversations going can be like pulling teeth. He’s blank slate-ish so it’s all up to me to pick what we talk about but sometimes I feel like I could use some help. I worry that he may perceive this as my not having depth, or at least the kind that he’s interested in. I know I do, but I’m not sure if we can ever be on the same wavelength. I’m not sure that he’ll ever be able to really “see” me and that feels lonely.

[NP_Complete]

Yeah, I feel the need right now to be special to him. I want to crawl in a hole for telling him that. That Pretenders song keeps running through my head.

"I'm special so special
I gotta have some of your attention give it to me"

I also shared that I needed to feel like he liked me and cared in order to open up to him. I believe he does both like and care for me, but I was trying to explain how I manage to tell him anything. I am realizing that I'm a very closed off person and sharing things with him is so difficult for me. I don't think he minds though. We had one session where I was trying to tell him this one-sentence thought that was stuck in my head and I just couldn't say it out loud. I tried to. I cried every time I opened my mouth to say something. I finally had to write the sentence down and hand it to him. This took most of the session. I felt awful after that session for having such a hard time saying this one thing. Later he told me that that particular session had been the highlight of his day. I guess my point is, therapists may look at those difficult sessions differently than we do. Maybe try talking to him about how he feels when you're having trouble opening up and see what he says.

[susannahsays]

That imagined response sounds pretty useless. I hope that's not how he would actually respond.

Since your father killed himself, I assume he was a very unhappy person and depressed. Symptoms of depression include irritability and lack of interest in things. I can see how this combination could have felt like disapproval. I'm sorry your father's unhappiness caused you to feel shame. The reason he wasn't interested in what you had to say was likely because he was depressed, not because it had no value. I suspect your father didn't much want to spend time on anything, except perhaps things that allowed him to escape how he was feeling. That doesn't mean you aren't worth spending time with. A person can be the most entertaining, fun person to be around, and it still won't be appealing when someone is a person is in the depths of depression.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Lrad123

NP - that sounds tough. I don’t necessarily need to be “special” or his favorite or anything like that. I just don’t want him to dread seeing me. I just have a hard time being open with him and I feel like I might be kind of disappointing. Getting conversations going can be like pulling teeth. He’s blank slate-ish so it’s all up to me to pick what we talk about but sometimes I feel like I could use some help. I worry that he may perceive this as my not having depth, or at least the kind that he’s interested in. I know I do, but I’m not sure if we can ever be on the same wavelength. I’m not sure that he’ll ever be able to really “see” me and that feels lonely.

I’ve actually asked my T about the dreading seeing me thing. I forget how I worded it at first, but he was like, “Do you want me to say I’m excited to see you?” Me: “No, more that I worry that you see my name on the schedule and are like, ‘oh no, now I have to deal with LT.’” T said he could assure me that he’s never thought that. And that made me feel better. I’ve also expressed fears that he felt stuck with me, that he’d rather just replace me with an easier client, and he’s put those fears to rest as well.

So I feel like you could say something like what you said above. You could just start with the thing about having trouble getting conversations going at times and go from there, see how it goes.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by Lrad123

For example, right now, I’m thinking that I’d like very much for him to think I’m interesting and likeable and worth spending time with. I mean that on a deeper level and not in a superficial way. I want him to look forward to seeing me and our conversations. I can still feel the feeling I felt as a 5th grader when I tried to share something important with my father and was filled with sudden shame as I realized I had nothing of value to offer and felt foolish for thinking it could ever be otherwise. He didn’t say a word, but I felt his disapproval and irritation that I had wasted his time. I feel that same thing with my T sometimes

This is a great example of what I think is meant when people say "feelings lie." What you think someone felt may be wrong in the service of being consistent with what you think about yourself, others, or your relationship with them. But unlike your father, you can ask your T but I don't think a global question (what do you think of me?) will get a very useful answer. Maybe your father didn't think you wasted his time, but he was distracted by his own needs or thoughts and he couldn't pay attention-- not because what you had to say wasn't interesting, but because he was incapable in that moment or maybe even more generally. Paying attention to you in the moment and during a session is pretty much all your T's job, so it's unlikely to recreate exactly the phenomenon with your father. But maybe the issue is the emotional content of it, you presume it was negative with your father and you presume it is negative with your T, as in you are negative-- not interesting, irritating, etc.

I think therapy pulls for this in all of us because when we begin to expose ourselves, whatever that means for us, it's pretty natural to wonder what the guy sitting across the room thinks about you. And our usual cues for determining it-- a friend or a romantic partner, if "into us" texts us and wants to be around us, asking for time spent together. In therapy, we gotta make the appointment or show up, and the therapist can't even reach out to us if we ghost. So there are no behavioral indications that mean "I like you and want to be with you."

When I first went to therapy, I thought that if I told the truth about myself-- the darkness in my family, my secrets, who I was and how I moved about in the world-- would make me unlovable. Actually, I was pretty sure I was unloveable even if I didn't. And when I started telling my T things that I wouldn't tell others in the real world, because then they would reject me, I felt like I was covered in horrible sores or something. Exposed and vulnerable.

Every time-- sometimes even now-- when I say one of those things I've never told anyone before, I still feel that way. But what I have learned in therapy in that these are exactly the things that draws my T in, that he finds "interesting" or makes me a person worth spending time with (and getting paid for it, which I think is a pretty low bar).

I've learned this from my own work, too, as my work requires me to listen to people's secrets. And when someone prefaces their statement with "I've never told anyone this before," I perk up. I know that what will follow is important. My kid has a variation of this. He says, "Mom. No offense . . . [truth grenade]. I get a little shiver of anticipation with his words. Because-- truth rocks, even if it stings.

I spent a lot of my life worrying whether the truth of who I am will make me lose everyone that ever loved me. Instead, I found that the truth and how to reveal it in a way that doesn't TMI others is what people makes other people want to be around me. Maybe these days I even understand that knowing the truth about myself is how I love myself too. What therapy has done for me is enabled me to understand that revealing who I am is the core discovery of therapy. As a side benefit, being concerned about what my T thinks of me, as I now feel consistent warmth from him, is not nearly as important as what I do. Maybe he was once my mirror, but now I hold it up for myself.

I don't have an opinion about what you should do about the present issue-- talk about it, or don't. My impression is that your struggles in the past months have the center at looking outward at your T, his behavior, his schedule, his policies, what he thinks. It seems like you want him to reveal himself to you, to step out of the shadows so you can shine your spotlight on him in the same way you do with relationships in the rest of your life. But it seems to me that you might make more progress if you resist these impulses and turn your attention inward. Reveal yourself to him, and not just through email. Revealing is not just what you say, but in the interaction writing cannot possibly provide.

[Lrad123]

Thanks for your thoughts, Anne. My current reaction is triggered, I think, by the fact that my T never saw the most recent email that I sent him while I was on vacation. I miss emails all the time, so I completely get it. And you could argue that emails are outside the frame and I didn’t have an appointment with him, so maybe it shouldn’t matter. I think he genuinely just missed it and my adult self can understand that. On the flip side, even if I was in a rush, I’d eventually get back to an email if it seemed important enough. So my mind temporarily traveled to the place where I thought I wasn’t important enough for him to notice or remember my email. We do have an understanding that although he won’t reply, he will read my emails, and you could argue that the therapy relationship is different than relationships with coworkers or friends, so his missing my email hit a bit of a nerve.

I do think your comments about my father’s reaction are insightful. At the time, his reaction was painful, but I’m aware now that he was distracted by his own demons and was probably just trying to hold it all together as best he could. He took his life several years later which came as a complete surprise to me because I thought he had it all together.

[lesliethemad]

Originally Posted by Lrad123

I feel like I already know how it would go. He’d normalize my feelings and say something like, “of course that makes sense based on your history,” and then the conversation would fizzle out and I’d be left feeling sort of exposed and unsatisfied.

Exposing yourself is part of therapy.

However being "satisfied" is a weird way to do therapy. I don't mean that as an insult. The relationship with your therapist isn't supposed to be satisfying in these short interactions. I'm not saying you shouldn't be satisfied with progress, or achievements. But it seems like you are hoping to satisfy deep childhood needs. And if you focus your energy on that instead of goals for your current life, you will always be disappointed.

I would bring this up to your therapist.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by NP_Complete

Maybe try talking to him about how he feels when you're having trouble opening up and see what he says.

This is a good idea and I might just try it. Thanks.

[Lrad123]

Thanks for all of your thoughtful responses. It really helped me to process things a bit better, and I think maybe this was a fleeting worry that will pass. Maybe Anne is right in suggesting that I focus more on myself than on him and my reactions to him.

[unaluna]

You started this thread by saying you imagined yourself storming out of a session because your t dissed you. Kinda like how your dad dissed you, but never gave you a chance to storm out? I would say, now is your chance to talk about the diss and the wanting to storm out. The vacation email echoes this theme - i tried to contact you but you never answered - now im angry.

Honestly, you are doing so well in defining your feelings. That is more than half the work, IMO i am totally jelly.

Agree with Una Luna.

And everything you articulate in these posts is ideal content for the type of therapy you are doing, but it's interesting how you seem to compartmentalize what you say here, what you bring to sessions, and what you email to him.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by unaluna

You started this thread by saying you imagined yourself storming out of a session because your t dissed you. Kinda like how your dad dissed you, but never gave you a chance to storm out? I would say, now is your chance to talk about the diss and the wanting to storm out. The vacation email echoes this theme - i tried to contact you but you never answered - now im angry.

Honestly, you are doing so well in defining your feelings. That is more than half the work, IMO i am totally jelly.

You make some good points here. I think some of my pushing back against my T, letting him know that some people on PC don't like him, trying out a different T, questioning things, etc.--that's partly because I couldn't really do that with my parents. It's like they wouldn't let me rebel or act out like a normal kid/teenager (not going to explain all that here). But my T can take it. It feels like I'm going through some of that stuff with him. Not saying that's definitely happening with you, Lrad (and it would take a different form), but certainly something to consider. And maybe bring up with your T.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Honestly, you are doing so well in defining your feelings. That is more than half the work, IMO i am totally jelly.

Thanks. Not doing so well at defining my feelings in person with my T, though. I once told him, “I’m really bad at therapy,” and he calmly responded, “yes you are.” So there you have it.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by lesliethemad

Exposing yourself is part of therapy.

However being "satisfied" is a weird way to do therapy. I don't mean that as an insult. The relationship with your therapist isn't supposed to be satisfying in these short interactions.

Really? Why would I want to expose myself if it’s not at least a little bit satisfying in the end? In that case I’m just left feeling exposed and I might as well have just kept it to myself. Not trying to be flippant here, just trying to understand your perspective.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I’ve actually asked my T about the dreading seeing me thing. I forget how I worded it at first, but he was like, “Do you want me to say I’m excited to see you?” Me: “No, more that I worry that you see my name on the schedule and are like, ‘oh no, now I have to deal with LT.’” T said he could assure me that he’s never thought that. And that made me feel better. I’ve also expressed fears that he felt stuck with me, that he’d rather just replace me with an easier client, and he’s put those fears to rest as well.

So I feel like you could say something like what you said above. You could just start with the thing about having trouble getting conversations going at times and go from there, see how it goes.

You are so brave with your T. It’s inspiring, so thanks for sharing. Sometimes I think I need to channel my inner LT and just say what comes to mind. It just seems so natural for you. (I also wish I could cry more. I imagine it might feel cathartic). I do wonder if he dreads seeing me sometimes (like, “oh no, she’s going to be a lot of work to keep things flowing. I wish I had a more talkative client”) and I’ve sort of brought it up at least in a roundabout way. I don’t think it’s his style to be reassuring like your T, at least at this point in our therapy (in the beginning he might have done it a bit). Anyway, these are occasional worries I have with him, but I don’t have them all the time so I don’t want to make it seem like a bigger deal than it is, I guess. I also am not sure what I’d get out of sharing this with him, so I’m weighing the pros & cons.

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I’ve actually asked my T about the dreading seeing me thing. I forget how I worded it at first, but he was like, “Do you want me to say I’m excited to see you?” Me: “No, more that I worry that you see my name on the schedule and are like, ‘oh no, now I have to deal with LT.’” T said he could assure me that he’s never thought that. And that made me feel better. I’ve also expressed fears that he felt stuck with me, that he’d rather just replace me with an easier client, and he’s put those fears to rest as well.

.

Did you resolve this in one session? For me it took multiple sessions over at least a year to work through these types of (transference) feelings, to get to a place where I didn't worry if I was a burden to him.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by octoberful

Did you resolve this in one session? For me it took multiple sessions over at least a year to work through these types of (transference) feelings, to get to a place where I didn't worry if I was a burden to him.

Oh, it's kind of been an ongoing thing. That conversation was at least a few months ago. And I brought it up again this past week. And how I feel I must frustrate him at times. And again said how he must sometimes think "I wish I could just have an easier client who didn't question me so much." I think it's all part of the anxious/preoccupied attachment stuff.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by octoberful

Agree with Una Luna.

And everything you articulate in these posts is ideal content for the type of therapy you are doing, but it's interesting how you seem to compartmentalize what you say here, what you bring to sessions, and what you email to him.

You are right about compartmentalizing. I’m not sure how *not* to do that. My emails to him and my posts here feel more dramatic, and my in-person sessions are calm and civilized. When I see him in person I think I realize that my thoughts and feelings between sessions have been sort of over the top, and he’s just a nice person trying to be helpful. I’m aware that we’re playing roles and whatever I’ve felt towards him isn’t really about him.