My new T makes me doubt and blame myself for our bad therapeutic relationship

"I see through that kind of actions and I just ignore her back by leaving her room without saying goodbye nor looking at her. She said 'goodbye' when I walked towards her door and I then replied but she for sure noticed my reaction."

"I let my tears run over my cheeks and it was very visible to her.
Even if I had begun to cry a lot I had let my tears fall on my shirt or trousers or such just to demonstrate the dumbness in not offering a Kleenex. Yesterday I left with tears on my face and that doesn't bother me so much but it felt good to show her I rather leave that way than taking a Kleenex from her 'hidden' Kleenex box."

Just seems like there is a lot of game playing on your part. THAT would be interesting discussion and exploration with your therapist. Why do you go into passive-aggressive mode when you don't get what you want?

That's a history thing which is probably what she's pointing out to you. Your need for these niceties (and your focus on them) comes from somewhere. It is about you which is why you are in therapy. That isn't blaming you, but rather, it is pointing out that your focus on these things like a kleenex box or a greeting are really pointing to a larger issue.

The "things" - the kleenex and the greeting - are minutiae themselves. It is the underlying reason these things become such BIG things to you that needs to be explored because if you go back and read your posts, you inevitably get bogged down in detail about the other person.

This therapist may be saying it's time to focus on the detail about yourself so that you can understand why you still are feeling good about things and why you have the difficulties you experience in your current life.

Every therapist is probably going to do something you don't like at some point, they are just people—I like my T but there are things he does that annoy me. I think the challenge for you here is to get past her problems and find a way to do your work. You don't get to choose your therapist, and it sounds like she's far from your idea of perfect. But you don't need a perfect car to get to your destination, just one that runs. So maybe if you can focus on the problems that brought you to therapy, you can make progress anyway.

I think that if you want to have a different relationship with a therapist, it's you who have to do things differently. Why don't you start from the position that this person can help you and let her do that, rather than insisting she do it differently? And perhaps another way you could do things differently is in being honest about what is true for you. Tell her what you think about the kleenex and everything else you can think of.

Sweeping decrees about my failings and shortcomings have never helped me. I know many of them. It doesn't help me problem solve.

I've achieved some goals by determining them, breaking them down into steps,deciding additional tools and knowledge I needed and reverse engineering traits in people I felt effective.

This exemplifies "advice giving" I find negative. First, every being has moments of fear-based irrationality. I'd find it intrusive for another person condemning me, particularly about such a core issue.

Thankfully a few mentors gently guided me to recognize myself in moments trapped by restricting emotions.

It's been a long process emerging from my young adult anxiety. Motivation came from dreams for accomplishment. The scolds only reinforced a hurtful framework where I felt beholden to others.

It’s hard to say if this therapist is a good fit for you or not, but I’m not sure I’d discount them because they make you feel uncomfortable. I think there are therapists who are more about offering support and comfort and others who are about helping you see yourself in a new way which might be uncomfortable at first, but ultimately better for personal growth. I thought my T was cold and not very useful for a while, but I’ve learned over time that he can actually be quite warm and caring, but he expresses it in ways that I didn’t expect and couldn’t see in the moment.

The elephant in the room is the indignity of a mechanical, paid relationship. I'd look there first for perspective on why it feels unpleasant.

I went thru a lot of therapists trying to find that "special someone" who will make all the hurts go away and who would explain me to me. Pathetic and futile.

If therapy makes you feel crappy, then maybe it's because therapy sucks.

People in long term therapy are going to side with the therapist most of the time and these threads seem increasingly punishing. The therapist will be given benefit of the doubt and the client will be taken to task for getting it all wrong.

Some of the things you've talked about feeling are "common courtesy" and you felt the T was rude or even hostile for not: saying hello, asking about your trip in, offering water, walking you to the door, shaking your hand.

I was also brought up with a more strict interpretation of common courtesy/polite behaviour than is common these days. However, I have found that leading by example will often elicit the response I want. It's fairly automatic for most people to respond if you say hello or goodbye.

What would happen if you went in and were the one to initiate conversation ("hello, it's good to see you - how was your morning?")? She's not going to tell you about the details of her previous clients, but she might well say "my morning was alright, what about yours?"

You want her to offer you water... next time, bring two bottles of water. Pull one out of your bag for yourself and offer her the other.

At the end of the session, stand up, thank her for her time and offer your hand. She's unlikely to turn down a handshake or to be rude in response to a polite closing statement.

I suspect you'll respond to these suggestions by saying it's not your responsibility - she's the professional, she's supposed to be welcoming you into her office and doing her best to build rapport. I would argue that one should always be polite, regardless of the position of power you're in. Additionally, since it is easy to influence this level of behavior in many people, if it is important to you why wouldn't you do it?

Finally, there is a saying among therapists: don't work harder than the client. It sounds like you're upset because perhaps that's what this therapist is doing. She's not pushing herself to change her behaviours to make you comfortable and you're not pushing yourself to change your behaviours (trust her, accept her) to do the work that needs doing.

You make some great points GeekyOne


...but sometimes we run into people with attitudes we cannot accept and adjust to.

I think it's a good idea to do these things if these are something that are part of someone's everyday behaviour and come naturally. In which case there would be no need anyone to advise OP doing those things because she would already do them.

However, the result is probably quite different than you imagine because the T has specifically said that they won't engage in small-talk. That means, the T's behaviour is not lack of common courtesy but deliberate - this is therapy, which is not a normal social situation and thus there's no need to engage in common courtesy because it just takes time away that could be otherwise spent to the patient.

So, if the OP starts doing those things (which according to my interpretation would be just a next way to try to manipulate the T doing something, rather than focussing on herself) then the T would instead of reciprocating common courtesy draw OP's attention to why the she has the need to do those things when they are not necessary in this therapy situation.

If you've been assigned to her because she is the only one with available slots - then do you have an option to stop seeing anyone until a different therapist becomes available? I'm not saying that will solve anything, since NHS therapy has its particular distinctive mentality - get them fixed fast or else shut them up. Probably another reason that she isn't going to be your mother or your best friend is that you don't have a million dollars to pay for that kind of attention.

Perhaps what people are saying is that if you don't have enough best friends (I don't) then you need to honestly think about your options. Perhaps you have very few options but we all have at least one step that we can take to move forward, and then the next step. If someone outside isn't doing it for you, then you need to find a way to do it yourself?

One of the things that I did for myself was to follow something that was related to a twelve step program because I figured that my negative emotional states were something akin to addiction.

That's not meant to be prescriptive but situational. It's just my experience over the years that the best therapy that my friends experienced was - mostly - very expensive and long term therapy relationships. The one exception to that was a friend who found a low fee therapist in Texas who had a regular job but saw clients at weekends.

This crosses a number of lines in my opinion.

Pretty sure diagnosing people like this violates either the letter of the law or spirit of the law here.

So much for boundaries.

Seems OP feels consistently mistreated by therapists and then comes here and gets more of the same.

I guess every group needs a punching bag.

If normal social protocol is entirely dismissed in favor of psychological "techniques" and manipulations, and control is surrendered to the allegedly all-knowing therapist, then it's definitely a two-person cult. I think it's reasonable for OP to question the details of the relationship and to protest if it feels dysfunctional.

Also most therapists say the therapeutic alliance is the main thing. If the therapist acts like a sociopath, seems a poor foundation for a healthy relationship or alliance.

The OP absolutely has the right to protest, which, I hope she is also doing. But that doesn't mean that the T has to submit to her. After all, the T's role is to help her to become more functional in her life and not exchange pleasantries.

Except OP says she did not do these things. When the T didn't say goodbye at the end of the last session, OP left without saying it either. I'm arguing that you get what you give.

You could be right - or not. We can't know as we were not in the room for the conversation about small talk. Calling it "manipulating" the T, while probably strictly accurate, carries a negative connotation that is undeserved in this instance. I think it's about shaping the relationship, in as much as she can, to feel more comfortable. There's nothing wrong with that. People do that all the time in all kinds of relationships.

Further, I still think it would be unlikely the T would blatently ignore an outstretched hand at the end of session, or a friendly/casual "see you next week". This T is reportedly psychodynamic - not psychoanalytic (I could possibly see it happening if the T was an analyst).

And... it seems it would be good to explore this. The OP could make a good faith effort to engage in exploring these topics - perhaps starting with the observation that it upset her that T didn't do these things, and maybe that has soured other relationships (or how it goes back to childhood, or whatever). That is one way to start building rapport with the T and eventually lead to a relationship where she could look at harder topics. It's not bad to start "small."

I also still think that if the OP demonstrated the behaviour, and did some work with the T beyond petty power struggles, OP might feel more empowered and the T might modify her behaviour. Right now there is little incentive to do so. Unlike a private T, this T is in a public system and will have a new client to fill the slot fairly quickly if OP walks away. In that sense, OP has more to lose in the failure of this relationship and should modify her behaviour accordingly.

I agree that OP should do these things if she feels like it but not because a stranger in the internet suggested it.

I think OP is doing best by just being the way they are, which in the current moment seems to mean acting out certain things she seems unable to talk about openly and honestly (like leaving without saying good bye and demonstratively not using a tissue). By doing all these things she is doing exactly what she's supposed to do in therapy. It's the job of the T (who actually seems to be psychoanalytic) to figure out how to use this material.

Wow, people here are getting quite passionate about telling Sarah how she is supposed to (and not supposed to) do therapy and what her experiences mean. I think a client has the right to have expectations and even demands regarding what kind if service they want to have from a paid provider. Of course the provider also has the right to refuse doing what they don't want to do. If there is not much overlap between the service and expectations, it is probably just not a good match. But if there are no alternatives and therapy is still desired, I guess the only option is to form some sort of compromise. I personally would want it to be a mutual compromise though, not sure it is correct for a T to collect money if they do not adjust to the client's expectations at all, at least I am sure I would not pay for such a service.

This suggests the OP is a subordinate of the therapist. Creepy.

People who believe their role is to help others become more functional in life are usually dangerous and/or deluded.

Personally i would tell this therapist to go f herself, and walk away, and that would be much more therapeutic than continuing the self-flagellation.

That's your interpretation and not the meaning I put into my writing. It's not my problem that you tend to interpret everything through such lens.

The OP is searching out the services of a therapist out of their own free will. No one forces them to do that. So, there must be something that they expect to gain or receive from this relationship (i.e. they expect to be helped). If someone feels that there is nothing to be gained (like for instance you) then they just don't go for therapy.

It's interesting how others seem to visualize their ideal therapist. Some see a warm supportive guide; some see a listening ear, others paint a stern disciplinarian to whom the patient must surrender.

I see that authoritarian tone both relating to therapy and in peer conversation here.

The authoritarian shtick definitely doesn't work for me and based on experience, doesn't work for many. Yes, some people feel they thrive having their backsides kicked, but I don't support contempt or reprimand as a default approach.

Interesting. But i think authoritarian is in the eye of the beholder, rather like rose colored glasses, so they presume the choice is, either t or me will be the authority. But if you remove the idea of authority altogether, you can have a partnership of two adults.

They often use authoritarian language and talk about themselves as authorities - I don't see it as a stretch nor do I believe it is all in the eye of the beholder.

Are you still undecided on whether or not to continue seeing her?

Thanks. Yes, to some extent I am but it leans towards ending it with her. Also, today I met with my case manager and I just cried about what happened during those three evaluation sessions I´ve had with this new T.


As they share medical records about me, my T will notice what my case manager has written and I assume she´ll write about what I told her and how much I cried.

I´ve read all comments to my post here at PC and I find both good pros and cons on continuing to see this T. In a way I think it´s a good thing to get frustrated and to bring forward anger and sadness. In another way I feel this is similar to how I experienced a former T, also within public health care.

With her I also early on felt we weren´t a good match but I kept seeing her because there was no one else until I switched facilities altogether.

My case manager told me today that changing behaviors and creating a therapeutic relationship that isn´t only supportive but also handle issues on a deeper level can be done in several ways.

She got the apprehension that my T is rather old school and analytical. (She´s also a pscyhoanalyst even if I see her for psychotherapy). My case manager also said that when she went through her own therapy during her education she didn´t want traditional psychodynamic therapy as she felt it was too strict.


I´m kind of sure of how to do with this T but I´m also afraid that I end up with a T who´s only supportive and kind instead.

Probably I won´t get access to therapy at all, I think this T will refer me to some general counseling with someone who isn´t a psychotherapist or she´ll just end it with me.

I´m kind of "doomed" when she understands I've vented about her with my case manager.

That shifts how I envision your therapist--she's an analyst. Mine was sort of a riddle sphinx, reflecting a blank slate in response to whatever I said. I was OK with that, only because of my expectation, being in analysis. Her procedure would have been weird if one expects something else.

I'm involved in a demanding art that involves giving and receiving feedback from others. It's possible to be simultaneously rigorous and warm, imparting affection and respect for the feedback recipient.

My comments were about the advice being given in this thread. It's the usual disempowering stuff... the therapist knows what is best for you, go back and take more abuse, your perceptions are faulty, blah blah blah. That's great if the goal is to cultivate crippling dependency and low self esteem. Was also commenting on what i see as public shaming of OP, which is an interesting form of support. OP might see it differently. I find it disturbing. Therapy culture is unfailingly hierarchical. Always someone is pushing someone else around. Hey i get it, makes you feel powerful for a minute. It's why therapists become therapists. But i digress.