The adult part taking care of the child part

Sorry, I somehow missed this reply. I don't know what to say. Like here today, I have no qualifications. There are some similarities between what you are experiencing and what I experienced/experience. My T is out of the office next week. Yesterday was the last session with her. I see her 4x wk and I email on the other days and have for over a year now. This is the 3rd time that she has been out of the office and it didn't feel like she was gone the minute I stepped through the doorway to leave on the last session. 2 of the times have been while doing video visits so I don't know if that has played into it or not. For several years, when she took time off, I would fear she would be a different person when she got back. I also would be panicky around who would take care of me if something happened to her while she was away. Like I said I see her 4x a wk. For the first 10months-a year, I saw her 1x a week. We moved to 2x a week and stayed there for a year before adding a 3rd time a week. We were at 3 times a week for about a year and a half before moving to 4 times a week. We'd just started that when covid hit. When I was 1x a week, I had a pattern of sad/missing/longing/aching, then I'd get mad at myself and at her - I'd call myself all kinds of names, then I'd lose any connection to her and by time the next session happened, she was a stranger again. At 2x week, we were able to keep me from forgetting who she was in terms of connection and transference. It was also almost a constant state of missing, longing, aching, wanting - very painful times. At 3 times a week, I was able to bring anger into the room, some of the longing and aching started to dissipate. I still wanted and missed her. I still want and miss her very often.

I can't say for sure that my self-worth was tied to her in the same way you feel yours is to your T. When I started seeing her, I was actively suicidal. I believe it was her belief in my life was worth living that made a difference. My trust in her around that belief allowed me to let her hold something/contain something. I'm not really sure what.

From what I experience, you can guess I have low object consistency. This is hard for me with everyone. From what you've written, I'm not sure your's is object consistency. Maybe it is more like what here today is saying about blending/merging your sense of self with what you perceive to be the idealized parent. My T once asked me if I ever felt like I wanted to crawl back into the womb. Her question brought out some anger feelings and confusion for me. I'm not sure if it's an accurate thing for me, there are some things that kind of point there. I have no clue what it means.

Ok, that's a lot about me. Do you know what about being apart leaves you feeling kicked out and not wanted until your next session? It seems to me that you are able to hold onto who your T is so what about the separation feels like being kicked out... I mean literally, is there something about how you end session that feels like you are being discarded or pushed aside? How soon after a session does this feeling happen? Are you ever able to feel the being wanted feeling with the anticipation of your next session? You know that session is coming, you know you'll be home with T then. And yeah, sometimes the space both the office and the contained space feels like home to me too. There's been times where I've asked or stated something about wanting to come home. At one point my T said something about it being ok to want to come home, that I was welcome to be home. Did the feeling of being kicked out start after your rupture that lead to you taking a break from him or was it happening before then? Can you pinpoint when it started and what might have triggered it?

You don't have to answer these questions, they are just things for you to think about.

Okay, just your t's fantasies of the raccoon kits getting abused would be enough to make me quit him. What is wrong with him that he brings that kind of violence into the room? You cant get nurturance from him - he only knew abuse in his past. Thats what it sounds like to me.

Plus he is angry that you have the ability to care for them. I dont know if this relationship can be saved - i always think they can, but wow it could get ugly. You would have to confront him on his ugly fantasies. Yuck.

Eta - i think your better help t is saying the same thing - the regular t is acting like a butt.

Do you have any literature on this? I can not find in what stage in a child’s development that they are to idealize their parents.

My T has said that this is like elementary school age (maybe 5-10-ish).

I find your BetterHelp T's response about love curious. Why do you need to stop or change the love? For me, the purpose is to have my love accepted and cherished. That it is okay to love my T and for her love me back and it can just be. That's... pretty much everything. The whole point. She doesn't use the word love (so neither do I), but that is essentially what it is. For somebody who was not really seen and loved by my parents, that's the only thing my child part craves.

I don't have anything specific. It has to do with how a child/person's sense of self develops. That's generally about age 2-3, or starts by then.

The ideas about idealization and the development of a sense of self come from psychoanalysis. Here's one article.

Self Psychology

I found someone's master's thesis (posted the link in the 'interesting articles' thread) that is basically a small survey on how clinicians handle idealising transference, and the theoretical background on it. She found that many (most, even?) went with Kohut's ideas of it (I hope I don't misrepresent it too much) being a developmental need and needs to be let to run its course (as opposed to it initially being viewed as a defense mechanism that has to be interpreted away).

My own experience:

I have a BPD diagnosis, which is supposed to come with alternating phases of idealisation and devaluation, and it's somewhat true for me. I can to some extent bridge the gap if I try really hard, but not fully (took me decades to learn even that), even less with something as intense as this stupid transference with ex-T. For a long time I didn't notice / acknowledge that part of my transference is probably the same as any other 'idealising transference', it just isn't the dominant one all the time, but now I think that it is. And, here's the kicker: despite her making it very clear in very painful ways that she's a flawed human being, that idiotic little girl part of me STILL wants to idealise her.It can't, really, my other parts are not letting her, but no amount of rational thinking, no amount od hurt and rage from other parts stopped her from trying. So I'm not sure BetterHelp T-s idea would work that well. As long as the 'little fool' has the need to idealise, she'll hold onto that idealised image no matter what. Stupid thing is still looking for ways to somehow get back to ex-T, because it must all just be some terrible misunderstanding. (It doesn't help that the angry part of me that feels betrayed and defeated yet again also wants to go back and shout her head off, lol).

Mind you, from what I see of your case, M also very clearly proved that he's a fallible human being.

I think while there's a lot common in attachment and love, adult love and a little-child love are very different, so might not be the best idea to treat them the same?

Yeah, the problem is, 'love' can mean so many things. I think this 'idealising love' is indeed something that one would want to gradually change eventually, seeing that it's clearly based on a false image of the other. Like it often happens naturally in romantic relationships, if all goes well.

I believe the idealizing stage occurs much earlier than elementary school. Have you never seen how very small kids (even less than a year old) sometimes possessively and totally adoringly look at their moms? I have seen it and it really looks like being totally in love.

Also, many small kids show very dependent behavior (for the lack of a better word). They don't let the mom out of sight even for a second and if the mom goes to bathroom for instance then they cry to whole time behind the closed door. They maybe occasionally do some independent play on their own but very soon they look around for mom and if she has sneaked away then they start crying and come to look for the mom for attention.

Some people then respond with pushing more independence, thus actually fostering the clinging even more. On the other hand, those parents who accept the clinging and offer enough closeness and attention, will experience one day that their child has gained enough security and starts to more explore on their own.

Honestly, I thought that I have to start attending school together with my older son (starts at the age of 7 in my country) because even at the age of 5 it seemed to me that he would never accept being there alone without me. But he grew out of it and now he is a very independent young man who still knows that I am there for him if he has any troubles or wants to share anything.

In therapy, I believe that any intervention that is designed to lessen the idealization and get the patient less dependent on the therapist (other than patiently letting the process run its course, being there and accompanying the process, helping to work through it and make sense of it as much as possible, while carefully making sure to not add or foster depenency artificially by ambivalent signals or unnecessary self-disclosure) is doomed to fail because that's simply not how these things work naturally.

So what does one do when
1. working through such a transference / letting it work itself out is not an option, for me certainly, because any attempts to sort things out with ex-T made things worse, if anything, and neither of us is willing to try anymore (I know I'm not, from our last email exchange I got the impression that she isn't either). I also have serious doubts about Moxie's T for that matter.
2. one would rather not feel that sort of desperate longing and helplessness ever again, let alone for yet another bloody therapist (I mean, I actually like the current one, and she didn't do anything particularly alarming yet, but ... still a therapist and I really don't want to somehow transfer this bloody transference to her). Except maybe for the part that keeps getting into these situations, damnit. I know I'm supposed to be compassionate with myself, and sometimes I can, but this **** is thoroughly unsafe, I get hurt again and again and again, why can't I learn that already?!???!?

What does it mean “work through the transference”? What does that look like? I want to cut this out of me so bad and not feel this pain that is so hard to describe. I feel like my hear is breaking.

Letting it run it's course seems to be my T's method. I think it's helping. I'm not sure how much of my process is attachment, love, and other issues stem from idealisation or object consistency. Or how they blend together.

At one point, it was very reassuring for my T to say that a part of me could always see her a part of her as mommy and that was ok/fine. In other words, the transference didn't have to go away. At the time, the little boy very much didn't want it to go away.

As far as "work through the transference" and what it looks like for me - so far... it's little steps like this time of her being out of the office, I was able to feel mad and not feel the sorry for being mad, or sorry I told her I was mad and wanting her to feel how her makes me feel when she is out of the office. A big one I think is the last 3 times she's been out of the office, there hasn't been this sensation that she is just gone the moment I walked out the door (or hung up). There's been less belief that she might be different when she gets back. To some degree and at times, it weirdly feels very much like growing up all over again. Internally, my inner world has gotten much quieter and maybe even more cohesive, not sure.

Other times, I'm not sure when I am writing to mommy in my emails to T, if I'm really talking to T or if I'm talking to some other part of myself. This has become more common over time, the uncertainty as to who mommy really is. I think it's been good for me to be allowed to communicate to T this way in terms of getting my younger self and parent self to start seeing things differently. In T's response the parent self is able to see that the younger self has value/worth for just existing and existing just as it is - something it didn't get growing up. With that, it has become more accepting of the younger self's needs - not all the time, but much better. Much less name calling and so on. I think - well it feels right that as there became less name calling and more allowance for what the younger self wanted - and allowing him to act on wants that were age appropriate to him and soothing without the criticisms, shame, and a whole pile of other things... he has started to want to talk to that inner parent. I don't know. It's really hard to describe and I'm pretty darn certain it is different for each of us -- whatever thing that allows us to connect and grow.

BTW - I don't always write to T as if she's mommy. I let it flow from where ever it is coming from, whichever part wants to talk to her talks to the part that it wants to speak to. She accepts me calling her mommy, yet never pretends to be mommy - that's one of those boundaries. I think she's acknowledged my address a few times with something similar to 'what child wouldn't want that of their mommy'. Otherwise she doesn't really acknowledge me calling her mommy. She doesn't ignore my needs and she acknowledges the content of my words (regardless if these are in email or in session). She shows interest, support, encouragement, and so on in response to my comments. When I am feeling her as mommy, it feels like she is responding as if she was mommy. When I am feeling her more as T, the same type of response still feels supportive and what not - just not coming from mommy. It's a bit of a dance.

I am grateful she is willing and able to let this play out this way. I know for many it might be a red flag or an eye roll. I feel it has been and is making a difference in my life.

I hope some of that was helpful.

What is the age difference between you and your therapist? I am 20 years older than my therapist I have no desire to call him daddy but to want to be taken care of by him like a guardian. For him to hold me in his heart and mind. To worry about me, to include me in his life.

She's about 6 yrs younger than I.

I don't believe the calling her mommy has anything to do with her age or her gender. What you describe wanting from your T, is very similar to what I want from my T; except, I do not want her to include me in her life, as in day to day life. I want to be the center of her attention when we are together. The only way that is even possible is when I'm not in her day to day life. There's too much life in day to day living, too many other needs in the world, to always be the center, be the focus. Oh, I often want more time with her. The time we do have together is my time with her - my special time with her, where if I let myself, I can ask her anything, talk about anything, and do lots of things. And to some degree and in some ways, I get to make her be whatever I want/need her to be during that time. In that way, she is a blank slate for me to project onto her elements of my inner self.

Oh, and I want her to worry about me and I want her to miss me, too.

If you strip away all the pretense and look at it a bit from object relations theory, it seems to me what you describe is a mommy object.

Mommy object is wrong. Why? Because I have become rage full if a female even tries to be nurturing to me. I can not even have a female therapist as I want to

I am not sure why I feel I want nurturing from male figures. My father was never in my life and both step-fathers were awful to say the least. Sex was a way to get nurturing and attention I craved in my younger years. Not sure how this is all tied. I do not fantasize about having sex with T either.

hmmm - I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree on if your T could be a mommy object. And maybe I'm understanding it incorrectly. The way I understand the mommy object, is the association the nurturing, care giving, and so on in relationship to a part or whole other person. My take on it is that it is regardless of the person - thus the name object and gender/sex of that person is not really a part of the whole thing, just the relationship - the type of actions and interactions that go on between the infant and that person. But then again ... for me, the word mommy is what comes through my head when I am alone and longing. So who knows.

Anyway, the whole development stuff is complicated/complex - so many places things can have hick ups and so many ways we as humans adapt to survive.

Oh ok I thought by you saying mommy it had to be a female.

Yeah this is where I am at. I want T to take care of me and save me from the abusive parent.

Do you remember how long it took before your adult part was able to do it? Months? Years? It has been almost 2 years now for me.

It took me about... 80 sessions (I couldn't see T weekly and our frequency varied)...and to be honest, I told her I still want her in it

That she doesn't have to do most of the rescuing but I always want her to be willing to help even if she doesn't help. My safe space imagery has her in it as well. I liken her to an ally.

Where my T and yours differs is that your T not only expects you to do this alone now, he doesn't want to stay/be invited in?

I had a recent trauma and my T "disappeared" from my safe space and I told T in session "my child part only has me to rely on. No one else is safe because they can leave and hurt me". T actually wanted me to NOT shut her out in imagery. To have allies with me.

She agrees with me in my goal to internalise her and carry her with me, and while therapy will end, I don't lose her completely. That we'll go slow and build things up so I "train properly for this 45km maraton that is therapy".

I guess maybe some might find her too giving but she has rock solid boundaries and I still feel the care because she's willing to fight for my child part.

I agree. I feel this is a limitation of your T's method. Perhaps he does more than what we understand or perhaps he's willing to do more and you guys just need to figure out what that looks like for you.

I hope you are able to talk more about his role in mediating between your parts - both in how they process your past and how they interact in the present.

Do you not think by him stepping in to save little me in the imagery that it will fuel the transference? The more I have him the less I will be able to let go?

I guess it depends on if the imagery exercises work for you. They don't for me. If they do, I do believe initially it will seem like it fuels the transference. I believe that if done correctly the concept is that eventually the modeling you witness as well as the strengthening that occurs with unconditional positive regard will allow for shifts and growth.

We are no longer the child that was hurt, so we don't need that type of support forever. And even if we were that child (a child), we grow from that place into independence. How we deal with the stresses that life throws at us, is in part an indication as to how that independence developed in us and how capable we are at dealing with the stresses.

So, I guess, if the imagery exercises don't work for you or if you need something else first/instead then it might be that you get stuck in the transference or retraumatized if he handles it in a way that is not helpful for you. Dealing with and working through transference is a minefield at times, it's hard work and can be very painful at times. There's really no one fits all box here. For example, with me, my T has had to work really really hard to get me to accept that I am doing my best at all times - which I still don't completely believe, I do believe it more often and am able to accept what I perceive as mistakes with less stress and self damage. For others, they need to be pushed to do more or to recognize that they are capable of doing more. My T's approach would be different for someone that she felt had that need. For them, perhaps she wouldn't encourage between session contacts, perhaps she would be more direct in the sessions - I'm not sure. We've talked about it and she acknowledges that there are differences.

It seems like your T doesn't want to or doesn't believe he should be part of your imagery maybe because he feels you know what to do. Have you talked about it from that perspective? Have you asked him how he will help or if he will step in if you get stuck in the imagery exercise? Or what will happen if imagery isn't the way for you - will he be open to other ways to helping your child self feel safe?

Yet, he gave you a transitional object in the past. Would he do that again, given how things have developed? Seems like he might, which is slightly puzzling how how that fits into the independence he is trying to foster in the imagery exercise and some of the other items he's suggested.

In the end - you'll have to decide on if you can give his suggestions an authentic trial. Can you buy into enough of what he believes is the right path for you because I don't believe he is flexible enough to let you guide your own process. Can you live with that?

Again, lots of questions for you to ponder - these are not ones you need to answer here (for me).

Imagery exercise do not work for me. I honestly hate going back into childhood memories. I can not do it without feeling it all over again. I am supposed to do it like watching a movie safe in the movie theater seat but that just does not work.

I am to embarrassed to ask him to go into the memory with me and help out. So that is never going to happen.

I am going to give all his suggestions a good try as it is the only option I have right now.

Well I will wait to see what goes down on Thursday. This week is going by so slow.

This sounds worrying, but who knows, maybe at this point it's really your best option? At least you have BetterHelp T for some sort of safety net, right?

Edit: though by far the most worrying part is your being too embarrassed to ask him to help. Are you sure you can't find a way around that? This is precisely the way I keep getting into trouble - too embarrassed to ask for help or signal that something is wrong, and by the time I do it's too late.

Good luck, hang in there. 2 sleeps.

BetterHelp T is sooooooo busy that he will only reply at around 8 a in the morning and then at night and is responses are paraphrasing and validating. He is starting a new position at his day job, selling his house, searching for a new house to buy and moving in with his girlfriend and then all his betterhelp clients. He is not the best help but it is something.