What if you don't agree?

That sounds like what I've been trying to say just worded slightly different.

I do feel unheard and unseen. Maybe there's not a lot of badness inside me. She know I would never harm someone maliciously or forcefully. But there is bad in me. There's bad in everyone. If this thing isn't considered bad... then how am I bad? Because this is the worst thing in my life.

I think I might be understanding her a little. She cannot judge me morally, ethically, or legally. She doesn't have the knowledge or the power. Like she said, she is just my therapist. And being neutral on this...I guess that's how she really feels. She's been 100% honest with me this far. Why should I doubt her about this?

I am probably wrong, but this is what is crossing my mind. I hear you unable to forgive yourself, and to justify your harshness on yourself, you want your therapist to justify your unforgiveness.

(Note: I'm about to go into a faith topic that I am sure not everyone wants to read or agrees with, so feel free to skip this paragraph.) In my faith practice, there is this thing called "grace." It is a concept of forgiveness for our humanness - even the worst of our humanness - even before we ask for forgiveness. It doesn't free us to partake in bad behavior, but it does assure us that our humanness doesn't condemn us. And God just sits there and patiently waits for us to work through our humanness, but all the while, He has already granted forgiveness long before we even knew we needed forgiving. Sometimes, I just have to trust that despite my own view of myself, there is this acceptance and grace out there that is rather beyond my full understanding. And I find God is a rather patient entity; He will just sit with me while I work things out, and I find that patience very reassuring.

Your therapist has no reason to condemn you or honestly forgive you for something that happened years ago involving someone else. It didn't happen to her; it isn't her history. She is listening to and validating your experience. She isn't the one who was hurt by your history and she isn't going to "feel" that history the way you do. She is accepting you where you are, with all your foibles, and waiting for you to move forward and away from that judgment that you place on yourself.

You do not seem to trust that she will wait patiently with you. You expect judgment because that is what you know, but perhaps there is a different way for humans to interact that can be learned for your own life. Your ways haven't worked for you; they have kept you in distress your entire life, but habitually (like all of us) you default to what you know. So, perhaps this isn't about "agreement," but rather, about patience and grace and forgiveness of yourself so that you can find a different way of viewing yourself and interacting with others that is healthier and more "grace"-ful.

I also believe her when she says that she says that she doesn't judge you, and she is neutral about the specific thing.

I think you are saying she acknowledges that you have bad in you, as we all do--but if the specific thing isn't bad, then what does make you bad?

Maybe she is saying that:

1. you have done bad things, like everyone
2. the specific thing, though, in her eyes, isn't one of them

But to you the specific thing is so bad that it is the worst thing in your life. So maybe this difference in perception of the specific thing is why you feel unheard and unseen?

Grace is a hard concept for me to accept for myself. I understand the concept from God and even from a relationship standpoint (i.e. I give L grace to make mistakes). That was an over-generalized example, but I hope you understand what I mean. But accepting it from God or others is hard especially with the secret.

You're right. L has no reason or place to condemn me or forgive me. She is not my "judge, jury, or executioner". Like she said, she is just my therapist. And it's a good thing that she can remain neutral about this. It shows she has good boundaries.

Giving patience, grace, and forgiveness to myself is extremely difficult. I don't feel I deserve it. It feels like I'm not taking responsibility for my actions. I don't want to lets myself "off the hook".

I do understand what you mean about defaulting to what I know. I learned judgment from my family and my church. I'm very good at judging myself. I also am a people pleaser and a perfectionist. If I don't live up to my standards, then I punish myself. That was part of the reason I used to SH. But you're right, it's not helping. I've gotten nowhere with this. It's stayed buried for a long time and has only festered. That's one of the reasons I'm finally opening up about it here and with L. I want to not only be responsible for my actions, but I want to live my life (if possible) from the guilt and shame.

Yes, I think so. I guess I'm learning through talking with you all and L, that this thing isn't as bad as I'm making it out to be? It's bad, but not condemningly bad? I know most don't know what it is, but whatever it is you're assuming, you all seem accepting.

L says we're going to process this some more. She also reminded me again of circle living/core-self.

I need to trust L that she will guide me on the right path. I'm not expecting her to have the answers, but to support me in healthy ways along this path.

At least I'm trying something different: bringing this to the light, talking it out, being open and honest.

Perhaps, and if it is a bad thing, it may be one bad thing in a sea of good. That can be forgiven, can't it?

Or maybe it is that bad...someone else reacted negatively... I give up on telling people. I already judge myself. I don't need to be judged by others.

I know what you mean. I have told people the worst thing about me, and reactions ranged from being laughed at for being silly, being asked how I could live with it, being left standing there, the other person having left, and some shades in between.

Telling someone is hard, because you will never know how they react, but not telling them is also hard, because they will never know you. That, at least, is my experience. To me, it makes me want to withdraw. If they laugh, I feel misunderstood. If the leave, I feel broken and abandoned. If they understand and stay, I feel as if on eggshells, as if I have to do everything they want from now on, because I ought to feel eternal gratitude for their naivite (I judge them for staying). If I don't tell them, there is a world of distance between us.

There's really no way for another person to react appropriately. And me, too, even if I were okay with that part of me, I could still never tell anyone and accept their reaction as a function of their own free will, mind and heart, that I would but accept without not at least considering the potential impact on my life.

I'm not sure I am helping, but I thought I'd share...

**Trigger Warning for history (in case it triggers people).

I totally relate to the different feelings from each possible reaction. I don't feel the need to tell people in my life about the secret. H knows as well as T and L. Not my family, and they will never know. They're judgmental people and would use it as ammunition when needed. Also, without knowing, they've made jokes about it which really hurts. I told T and L early on because I did want the help, but I figured if they were going to reject me, to get it done and over with early. With H, T, and L, I did feel like I have to walk on eggshells for a long time. Like I have to be extra good to make it up to them. I know it's backwards thinking, but that's what I did. I still feel that way now sometimes.

Hugs, Scarlet. I'm sorry that some people were so judgmental.

I did something pretty bad (that I've mentioned on here) almost exactly 6 years ago. Of people I told, most were understanding and forgiving--it was a bit more complicated with the person it directly affected--my husband--but he ultimately forgave me and did so relatively quickly (even though I didn't think I deserved it).

However, someone I'd been friends with since I was 12, who I thought would be accepting, was incredibly judgmental and made me feel really awful about myself. We've since mended things (though don't talk that often). But now I no longer feel I can trust him as someone to confide in (he had been one of my safe people, where I felt I could tell him anything and he'd still accept me--and vice versa). So it can be really difficult and painful when someone you thought you could trust and who had your back unconditionally judges you.

I told my T early, too, because I have a bad track record of waiting to tell people until they know me a bit and then ending up never telling them at all. I was in a 4 year relationship once, we lived together, talked about having kids, and I never told the guy. My family doesn't know either, and they, too, never will. I can take anyone's reaction, but theirs would last.

I'm sorry they are joking about that stuff, your family. I guess that's another down-side to not telling people. Of course people talk about my issue, too, though noone finds it very funny, understandibly so. I don't find it very funny, either, but here we are. I suppose that downside is to be expected and perhaps one just has to stop listening when conversations go that way. Walk away and do the dishes or something.

I guess that's why I put up with my T not being sure if he can treat me in the long run, because I get that this is difficult for him on probably more levels than I can even begin to undestand. I feel I can't express my concerns over his pending decision either, because that might imply any number of things, like me thinking him weak, or me being angry at him or simply not accepting that he needs time to get to know me. And as I generally find it hard to pinpoint my feelings, I couldn't even deny these with strong conviction, cause all I know is that it confuses me and that's that, everything else is guess work. So I find it best not to bring it up.

I'm glad though you have 3 people in your life who know your secret and are accepting of you as a whole, including the secret, and it's good to see that you can let the need to be extra good with them slide, because what's the point of telling someone so they'll know you, if then you have to be extra cautious about being yourself, right? That's contradictory.

[FONT="Georgia"][SIZE="5"][B][QUOTE=LonesomeTonight;7170070]Hugs, Scarlet. I'm sorry that some people were so judgmental.[\quote] do
You mean people here or people in the OP‘s life?

People here, I believe.

I didn't clarify, but I think LT read it right: people here. I haven't told too many people irl. 10 I think? They were professionals (i.e. therapists or counselors), 2 women who did the exorcism, and H. My post about being judged again was from a person here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel I didn't clarify, but I think LT read it right: people here. I haven't told too many people irl. 10 I think? They were professionals (i.e. therapists or counselors), 2 women who did the exorcism, and H. My post about being judged again was from a person here.

Oh man I’m sorry. I see your post goes back to October so I’ll have to read through it better.

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I feel so much relief after today's session. L told me that she does see the secret as bad, just doesn't see me, my core as bad. I feel like she's in reality, tracking, and understanding. Of course it hurt for her to say it, AND it makes me feel so much more known.

I also found someone else who shares my secret. I'm glad I'm not alone AND I feel for the person that they have to carry the weight of it.

HUGS Scarlet, I'm glad you got an answer from you T. I'm glad you feel relief. I'm sorry you are feeling hurt and I'm sorry you are feeling that the other person has to carry the weight of it. It might not feel that way to them but maybe it does. HUGS Kit

You're right. I can't compare myself and the other person. I guess I mean that if they do carry any shame or regret, I feel for them. I pm'ed them to let them know they're not alone.

Also glad you found some relief in today's session. And that you found someone else who shares it.

My T said something today that resonated with me, in talking about the secret that I referenced on here, and maybe it could be helpful to you? That it seems like I feel that I'm a "bad girl"* who deserves to be punished. Even though everyone by my age has stuff in their past that they aren't proud of. And that I judge myself much more harshly than I would judge anyone else around me. That I should try to look at things I shared as if it was my friend telling them to me--would I judge them the way I judge myself?

*He's using "bad girl" as the opposite of feeling I had to be a "good girl" growing up, which I've talked about from childhood, not referring to me as a girl rather than a woman, to clarify.

Yes! I try so hard to be the "good" girl. L and I were talking about it today in terms of a period in my life where it was "popular" in society to be a part of an evangelical church. And that I learned a lot of my purist ideas from that (i.e. no premarital sex, no sexual thoughts outside your marriage, other rules that evoked shame). A lot of it I have come to terms with and can accept. The secret is just one thing that I cannot accept. L and I hypothesized that it's because of the church and because we can't figure out the cause of the secret.

L was also talking, again, that we are all angel and all demon, even her. And that we have all made decisions that we regret. And that we all wrestle with it trying our best in the process.

I guess I liken it to what we teach children. Children are inherently good, they jusy sometimes do bad things. But they don't mean to be bad.

All that to say that I really resonate with the trying to be a "good girl", and feeling like I deserve to be punished for the ways I feel like I was a "bad girl". And yes, I would be accepting of someone who shared my secret. It's bad, but I'm learning that it doesn't make them a bad person.

I just fear so so much being judged because the bible condemns it, and society really frowns upon it. And I've been judged by a few people here. But I guess it's fair to assume there will be some who judge me AND that some will not. And like AmyJay said, 3-5% of the population is actually a lot.

I'm glad L is willing to work on this with me. I believe it is helping. It's just not easy!

I'm glad you feel relief and seen after this session Scarlet. I have no idea what your secret it, but it makes me feel a little leery to hear you T tell you it was a "bad" secret. My T has said that even if I have murdered someone, I am not bad...I get that your T also told you that you are not a bad person, but it feels weird to hear that she "agreed" that the secret is also bad.

But that is just my opinion

My therapist defines some things I do, or did, as bad. Some things are objectively bad and only a depraved and/or morally bankrupt person won't understand this. So, if my therapist did not define anything I did as bad, I would think she must be either stupid or evil. Maybe misguided at best. Plus, I need her to believe that some actions are just bad. I can't tolerate a lack of certainty about, for example, abuse being bad. If she believes that I am incapable of being bad, then logically nobody else can be bad, either. And that's very disturbing to me - the thought of her having that philosophy or worse, being inconsistent and not realizing it.

But that comes down to my own personal preferences due to the way I think. I can understand why it would be harmful for someone else to have anything related to them conceptualized as bad by their therapist.

I understand that some would feel if their T judged an action, it would feel like they might be judging you too.

In mine and L's relationship, we try to be as honest and open as we can be...if we get hurt, then we work through it with our foundations: curiosity, compassion, understanding, empathy, etc. Never with criticism, punishment, or cruelty. We've built our foundation strong so we can do the hard work that we're doing now.

I depend on her honesty and openness. I guess transparency is a better word. I need her understanding; not judgment. And she wouldn't and doesn't judge me. I need to know that she's tracking, present, and in reality, and sometimes that requires hard truths.

Like susannahsays, I think some things are just bad actions: abuse, murder, r-word, my secret, etc. And while we my judge those actions as bad, L says she would still love me and still work with me even if I have done any of those things.

I didn't think of it like this, and you have a great point.