[ChickenNoodleSoup]

I have heard this question a few times in various formulations, as well as thought it myself before starting therapy. I wonder what you guys think about it, would answer to it, whatever, just a topic on my mind.

I was on a trip with a friend recently and during the few days I talked about my T sometimes. Not big discussions, more like "my T would say X" or "my T's comment on that was Y". My buddy at some point commented that he thought I value the guy's opinon too much and said: "You realize you pay this person to listen to you?"

I know this is a common thing for people to consider. I remember myself thinking before going to therapy that it's basically a sign of society's failure, we have to pay people to talk to instead of having friends to rely on (these were my thoughts).

I think my friend is coming from the place of "if you pay someone to listen, they are not actually invested in it". Which is not quite the same as what I used to think, but similar.

What would you say if a friend/important person of yours said something like that? In the moment, I was just like "yeah, I know", which is of course true, but does not really explain anything.

Personally, I nowadays think that the payment is a good thing. I do not think I pay them to care, and I actually think it's pretty hard to do that. If you see somebody once a week, at some point you can tell whether they care about you as a person or not. Influencing that with money is quite difficult.
What I pay for is that they keep their own stuff out of the room as much as possible. I mean something very specific by that, so let me explain. I do not mean not having a personal life that sometimes affects therapy (lots of people on here have Ts that have personal stuff that affects therapy, including myself). But when you can talk, it's about your experience first and foremost. For example, if a T has lost their pet a week ago and decides to work and their client has some topic with their pet, that discussion is not off limits. Let alone is there ever a day where you sit down and the first sentence is something like "I know we said we'd do your session today, but really I'm kind of down, can we just go grab coffee instead".

So, what do you guys think? Is payment a necessary evil or a roadblock?

[Oliviab]

I agree with you. You don't pay them to listen or care. You pay them to hold space for you, a space where your needs for support take precedence. You pay so you don't have to leave equal space for your T and provide reciprocal support to them. You pay so there is reciprocity and balance in the relationship, even though you are each giving and getting different things. It is a real relationship, although one with boundaries that are different than most other relationships.

[unaluna]

Ya know, Freud said, when someone said, arent you just doing what a friend would do? "Yes, but where would you find such a friend?"

Ironically, you are paying your t to refrain from dispensing such wisdom as your friend was doing!

If your friend has a question, let them ask their own t. You are not auditioning for the job. You have enough of your own questions. By offering what your t says, you were sharing your t with your friend. If your friend had a problem with the content, then let them question that. But even that may be bogus, because they are not privy to your t's intent, say in building up your self-esteem with unconditional acceptance, which might not be an appropriate role for a friend past adolescence.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Ya know, Freud said, when someone said, arent you just doing what a friend would do? "Yes, but where would you find such a friend?"

Ironically, you are paying your t to refrain from dispensing such wisdom as your friend was doing!

If your friend has a question, let them ask their own t. You are not auditioning for the job. You have enough of your own questions. By offering what your t says, you were sharing your t with your friend. If your friend had a problem with the content, then let them question that. But even that may be bogus, because they are not privy to your t's intent, say in building up your self-esteem with unconditional acceptance, which might not be an appropriate role for a friend past adolescence.

While I don't like Freud on a lot of things, I really like that answer!

[ScarletPimpernel]

I hate that it IS a paid relationship. But like you, I also think it's a good thing, for many reasons.

First, I'm paying for her experience and education. L got her doctorate. It's my opinion that she actually uses that information she learned to help me with my issues.

Second, I pay for her to run her business. As a business she has rent and bills. She provides me with a safe space to talk. I help her afford that safe space.

Third, this IS her job. This is how she makes a living. I am her client. So I help her with everyday living expenses.

Her care, love, respect, and investment I do not pay for. She gets to choose that.

[divine1966]

By this logic we shouldn’t listen to GP’s recommendations because we pay them or to teacher’s/professor’s instruction because we pay them. That’s quite a dumb comment.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by ChickenNoodleSoup

While I don't like Freud on a lot of things, I really like that answer!

Agreed! He had his moments!

I loved his book, "Jokes abd their relation to the unconscious" in which he analyzes the following exchange:

A: Did you take a bath?
B: Why? Is one missing?

i cant believe that joke is so ancient. Or that that kind of attitude still exists.

[stopdog]

It is paid for.
I never found therapists to do anything remotely requiring skill. I have no idea what those people think they get paid to do in any real sense and I believe they give themselves too much credit when in reality they do nothing. I never found them caring and didn't find having someone pretend to listen was helpful. I can't imagine telling anyone what a therapist I hired said - and I never guessed at what they might say in any situation. I don't know why one would do that (I am not saying it is wrong - just that I don't get why or how it would even come up).
I do think they are paid rent for you to go in and talk and they sit there and pretend to pay attention. If you find it useful then great - I never did. But paying them was the thing that kept me safe - I had no personal investment in them like I would a friend. I do think some of those people are paid to appear caring. I know their standard line but to me that is like if they said "I am from the govt and I am here to help" - believe it if it helps you but I don't think it is true.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

I hate that it IS a paid relationship. But like you, I also think it's a good thing, for many reasons.

First, I'm paying for her experience and education. L got her doctorate. It's my opinion that she actually uses that information she learned to help me with my issues.

Second, I pay for her to run her business. As a business she has rent and bills. She provides me with a safe space to talk. I help her afford that safe space.

Third, this IS her job. This is how she makes a living. I am her client. So I help her with everyday living expenses.

Her care, love, respect, and investment I do not pay for. She gets to choose that.

This sounds similar to what my T has said about why I pay him. That I'm paying for his expertise, for his PhD training, continuing education, and his 20 years of experience in working with clients (though I still feel I'm teaching him quite a bit!).

I also have no obligations to him other than financially. I don't have to listen to his problems, fear that I'm dominating the conversation, or worry that something I say might offend or trigger him (though he's a bit touchy about some things). I can just sit there and talk about myself for 50 minutes.

And, like you said, in exchange, I help with his living expenses.

In terms of therapists only caring because they're paid, I go back to one of the things my former marriage counselor said to me, when I said, "You only care because I pay you." He replied, "You can pay me to do my job, but you can't pay me to care." As in, he chooses to care. I've mentioned that to my current T, and he agrees with that.

Who is wasting their time and money to pay someone simply to listen?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

Who is wasting their time and money to pay someone simply to listen?

Yeah, I mean, I get guidance and support from my T, too. And he'll challenge me on things at times. Assuming that's what you mean.

[TishaBuv]

Well you do place a lot of value on your therapist’s opinion. That’s why you are in a professional relationship with them.

I think of my therapist’s opinion like a voice of reason coming from an educated place of understanding and toward guiding me for my best interest. If I didn’t feel like I could trust them, I wouldn’t want to have a therapeutic relationship with them.

Your friend who made the comment wasn’t being helpful. Why would they say that? It was kind of a put down. Maybe they feel you should value their opinion instead and the comment was their ego talking.

[Therapy reviewed]

Paying for their time and if your lucky there good grasp of the human condition

[Rose76]

I think that some people in therapy often kind of put their therapist on a pedestal. They have this person who validates them in many ways, and they idealize the therapist as a Font of Truth. Especially if others in your life have undermined your feelings of self-worth, it can feel great to sit down with someone who says things to you that make you feel good. Hearing someone frequently mention their therapist in an admiring way makes me wonder if the person is getting a bit addicted to visiting the therapist. That makes me a little suspicious that perhaps the therapist is blowing a lot of smoke up their behind that is mainly designed to make the client want to keep coming back. I'm not saying that therapists set out to lure you into returning by flattering your ego. I don't think that is their conscious intention, but I think it happens a lot. They do want you to return. After all, you are in need of help . . . and the T needs to make a living. So they don't want your session to be an unpleasant experience. That's a valid point. However, if therapy feels wonderful, then I would suspect that there's too much "stroking" going on and not enough attention paid to what is wrong with your approach to life.

I do believe that people in emotional distress have an approach to life that is not working for them. I would say that about myself as quick as about anyone else. You might disagree with me on that, as I expect many would. I believe that many people go to therapy because they want to be told good things about themselves. They often want to be told about how their distress is due to the bad treatment they got from others in their life. They want to be told, "It's not your fault. You were a victim." Some therapists are very quick to reinforce that kind of thinking. If you struggle with a lot of emotional distress, you probably were treated poorly at some time earlier in your life. It's appropriate to recognize and acknowledge that, but, if that stays the focus of therapy, then I don't think therapy is going to improve things for the client.

When someone keeps quoting their therapist, it starts to sound like they've become overly dependent on that relationship, as though this therapist has become their new best friend or even their new "significant other." That can be a little like falling in love with a paid sex worker. The reality is that your therapist is giving you time and attention because you are paying for it. There's nothing automatically wrong with that. It doesn't mean the therapist only wants your money and doesn't care about you. But you are not sitting in that office because the therapist loves spending time with you because you're so wonderful to talk with. Here's what I believe: Your relationship with your therapist is productive, if it leads to you having better relationships outside of the therapists office. If you love going to therapy because the therapist is so nice to you, that's just spinning your wheels and going nowhere. Your therapist is human, which means he or she is going to be wrong from time to time. Not everything your therapist says will be valid. If you're incapable of seeing that, then you have idealized your therapist into something he or she is not. I think your friend was trying to caution you not to do that.

[Therapy reviewed]

Nice knowing what someone may post on this mental health forum from where they are in their therapy journey is being analysed with such esteemed knowledge....

Originally Posted by Rose76

I think that some people in therapy often kind of put their therapist on a pedestal. They have this person who validates them in many ways, and they idealize the therapist as a Font of Truth. Especially if others in your life have undermined your feelings of self-worth, it can feel great to sit down with someone who says things to you that make you feel good. Hearing someone frequently mention their therapist in an admiring way makes me wonder if the person is getting a bit addicted to visiting the therapist. That makes me a little suspicious that perhaps the therapist is blowing a lot of smoke up their behind that is mainly designed to make the client want to keep coming back. I'm not saying that therapists set out to lure you into returning by flattering your ego. I don't think that is their conscious intention, but I think it happens a lot. They do want you to return. After all, you are in need of help . . . and the T needs to make a living. So they don't want your session to be an unpleasant experience. That's a valid point. However, if therapy feels wonderful, then I would suspect that there's too much "stroking" going on and not enough attention paid to what is wrong with your approach to life.

I do believe that people in emotional distress have an approach to life that is not working for them. I would say that about myself as quick as about anyone else. You might disagree with me on that, as I expect many would. I believe that many people go to therapy because they want to be told good things about themselves. They often want to be told about how their distress is due to the bad treatment they got from others in their life. They want to be told, "It's not your fault. You were a victim." Some therapists are very quick to reinforce that kind of thinking. If you struggle with a lot of emotional distress, you probably were treated poorly at some time earlier in your life. It's appropriate to recognize and acknowledge that, but, if that stays the focus of therapy, then I don't think therapy is going to improve things for the client.

When someone keeps quoting their therapist, it starts to sound like they've become overly dependent on that relationship, as though this therapist has become their new best friend or even their new "significant other." That can be a little like falling in love with a paid sex worker. The reality is that your therapist is giving you time and attention because you are paying for it. There's nothing automatically wrong with that. It doesn't mean the therapist only wants your money and doesn't care about you. But you are not sitting in that office because the therapist loves spending time with you because you're so wonderful to talk with. Here's what I believe: Your relationship with your therapist is productive, if it leads to you having better relationships outside of the therapists office. If you love going to therapy because the therapist is so nice to you, that's just spinning your wheels and going nowhere. Your therapist is human, which means he or she is going to be wrong from time to time. Not everything your therapist says will be valid. If you're incapable of seeing that, then you have idealized your therapist into something he or she is not. I think your friend was trying to caution you not to do that.

[East17]

You pay for a Ts time and expertise (because they are a professional offering a service), but you cannot pay them to care.

Given that most Ts (the good ones anyway!) do care about their clients and are invested in their wellbeing, I would say many go above and beyond their remit of simply 'listening' for that therapy hour per week.

[divine1966]

I sometimes quote a therapist I had a few years back. She said some cool useful things and some useless or even dumb things too lol.

I quote anyone who say anything useful. People see therapists for so many different reasons that there’s no way to summarize. Some see them because they need continuous refreshment of skills and strategies (often people with life long disorders), some need support from a third neutral party about things you can’t share with family and friends, or family and friends are just too invested to be objective. Ton of reasons.

If someone said something what I find useful I’d use it. I don’t care if it’s people I pay or random passer by or a friend.

[TishaBuv]

“ Your relationship with your therapist is productive, if it leads to you having better relationships outside of the therapists office.”

^Well said. This is the simple goal to focus on.

[ArtieTheSequal]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

Who is wasting their time and money to pay someone simply to listen?

Sadly, I think I did. For way too long.

[unaluna]

As i look back on my life, most of it spent driving to therapy , i recall telling myself that i was doing this to keep from unaliving myself. I thinj i have had a very weird case of DID. I mean, what little kid's favorite movie is The Three Faces of Eve? I have always felt like Notme, the character in the Family Circus cartoon. Who did this? Notme!

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

Originally Posted by ArtieTheSequal

Sadly, I think I did. For way too long.

I think having somebody who just listens is productive in many circumstances. I think it's bad if they just go with whatever you say, but if you feel challenged and pushed in the right direction, I think that is enough. I'd be kind of surprised if somebody in therapy doesn't feel challenged and if that's all that it is, i.e. they just listen, that's surprising to me (might still help, just not my experience).

If you feel fine with everything, then why are you talking to somebody? If you do not feel fine about everything, then there's something that needs to change. Humans do not like change, you will feel challenged if you have to embrace the change.

[mote.of.soul]

Well, it's like a doctor or a pharmacist really. You're not paying them for the relationship as such, you're paying them to help you. So you should go to the T with specific ideas that you want to discuss and find solutions to. It can save a lot of time and money knowing what you would like them to help you with. It's a case of staying focussed on your goals with them, and not veering off on wild speculative chit chat all the time.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by mote.of.soul

Well, it's like a doctor or a pharmacist really. You're not paying them for the relationship as such, you're paying them to help you. So you should go to the T with specific ideas that you want to discuss and find solutions to. It can save a lot of time and money knowing what you would like them to help you with. It's a case of staying focussed on your goals with them, and not veering off on wild speculative chit chat all the time.

I think it's a bit different with a therapist. As, often, the relationship can be a big part of the therapy, or at least contribute to whether it's helpful or not. My therapist has said that studies show the strength of the therapeutic relationship is the biggest predictor of successful therapy outcomes, more than the mode of therapy (like CBT vs. pyschodynamic, etc.). I share much more and more frequently with my therapist than with my primary care doctor (who I only see once a year if my health is OK, maybe a few times if not).

[ScarletPimpernel]

I don't think therapy is all about being challenged. I think validation, too, is important especially for people who have been invalidated their whole life. It gives confidence and understanding and compassion which are all healing.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

I don't think therapy is all about being challenged. I think validation, too, is important especially for people who have been invalidated their whole life. It gives confidence and understanding and compassion which are all healing.

I agree with this, especially as someone who was/is often invalidated by my mother (and some others in my life). And I think there's a difference between a therapist being validating and just nodding and agreeing with whatever a client says.