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  #1  
Old May 16, 2008, 08:41 PM
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I recently saw a post on another forum from a young female who went to a therapist for bulimia, only to get there to recognize that the therapist was "extremely, anorexic thin." Whether the therapist truly had an ED or not, who knows.....

However, that leads to this......

Personally, I find it shocking when therapists who are actively battling eating disorders, addiction, self-harm, uncontrolled mood disorders and personality disorders are practicing and dealing with clients daily.

How can a therapist model good health and self-care to a client when the therapist can not do it themselves?

It is similar to a physician telling a patient to lose weight, when the physician is obese. What kind of model is that?

Even if they hide their behaviors or symptoms, what is the ethical obligation to the clients?

I have seen several MDs lose their licenses when battling terrible genetic illnesses, such as ALS or MS. The Board has said, you are not safe for your patients.
In medicine, it can be quite difficult to get licensed to practice if the MD is ill or presents with a possible danger/harm to a patient.
For example, a psychiatrist who has severe PTSD symptoms may be prevented from being licensed by the board, for fear that the psychiatrist may do harm to their patient.

Psychology does not say that. This is frightening.

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  #2  
Old May 16, 2008, 09:35 PM
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This feels like a very mean spirited post.

You should spend some time worrying about yourself.
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  #3  
Old May 16, 2008, 09:39 PM
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Rip, what we have to remember is that not all therapists follow the APA guidelines for ethics, nor are they required to. I personally think it's very clear the guidelines to follow when having personal problems:

2.06 Personal Problems and Conflicts
(a) Psychologists refrain from initiating an activity when they know or should know that there is a substantial likelihood that their personal problems will prevent them from performing their work-related activities in a competent manner.

(b) When psychologists become aware of personal problems that may interfere with their performing work-related duties adequately, they take appropriate measures, such as obtaining professional consultation or assistance, and determine whether they should limit, suspend, or terminate their work-related duties. (See also Standard 10.10, Terminating Therapy.
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Old May 16, 2008, 09:55 PM
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Freud himself was terribly depressed his entire life - even to the point of taking crack to deal with his symptoms (i just studied him last term).
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  #5  
Old May 16, 2008, 09:58 PM
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Slippers Slippers is offline
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There are many wounded healers out there, and they have made some of the best therapists ever. They heal with a depth that no others can.

Ethics of Therapists who Are Mentally Ill ((((((((((((Wounded Healers)))))))))))))))) Ethics of Therapists who Are Mentally Ill

S
  #6  
Old May 16, 2008, 10:06 PM
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
MissCharlotte said:
This feels like a very mean spirited post.

You should spend some time worrying about yourself.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

This is not. I am making a point. If you choose not to be able to critically evaluate issues, then don't bother reading posts dealing with these type of things.

If all you want to do is give support, then don't read posts containing information regarding the discussion of intellectual issues pertaining to the topic of this forum, PSYCHOTHERAPY.

I am sick of this crap where people who bring up intellectual issues to discuss are told they are being "mean-spirited" or not supportative. And it has not just been me.

I am trying to make people think, critically.

And this does have to do with me. Because I have some of those issues, so when I think about what I need and want in a T, it is for sure someone who has dealt appropiately with their issues, so they can help me.

  #7  
Old May 16, 2008, 10:08 PM
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Yes, that's true. Freud's legacy will be one of being a pioneer in the science, but not for what he did.

June 2006 | 123 » Essays » After Freud
On his 150th anniversary, Freud's legacy is being dismantled by the ideas of his greatest challenger, Aaron Beck.
Alexander Linklater
Robert Harland

When early patients of Freud's complained to him that nothing could change the original circumstances which made them unhappy, he agreed—with a caveat: "Much will be gained if we succeed in transforming your hysterical misery into common unhappiness." This is one of Freud's most celebrated remarks, though it appears in Studies in Hysteria, which was published in 1895, before he had developed the full psychoanalytic method. But it captures the pessimism—or realism—which threads its way through all Freudian practice.

http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/a...ls.php?id=7457

His fatalistic view permeated everything, IMO that stemmed from his depression. (err hysteria.) Ethics of Therapists who Are Mentally Ill
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Old May 16, 2008, 10:12 PM
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The whole site is basically for support of others, and not intellectual discussions (believe me, I would love that too!) IDK if it's advantageous to blatantly expose any therapist that shares "too much" (whatever that is) about himself, carte blanche in one fell swoop.

I think as we read the posts, and find something that might not be quite ethical, then members gently nudge the person posting to talk about it with their T. We all generally agree that unethical Ts are not good for healing, but as noted, the level of sharing is left up to the T him/herself with each patient.
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  #9  
Old May 16, 2008, 10:13 PM
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Riptide said:
I am making people think.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I don't think you're making people do anything. People choose what they want to do.

If people don't want to read another person's posts, one option is to put that person on "ignore." To do that, simply click on the person's name and it will take you to their profile. Then click on "ignore user" in the lefthand menu.
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  #10  
Old May 16, 2008, 10:13 PM
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I know very little about my T's personal life. I don't know if he self-harms, has an eating disorder, has an addiction, etc. I DO know that during the 50 minutes that he spends with me, he is present, empathetic, supportive, and is finally the person who is helping me heal. He leaves his personal life outside of the room, and is completely there for me. That's what matters.
  #11  
Old May 16, 2008, 10:17 PM
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Slippers said:
There are many wounded healers out there, and they have made some of the best therapists ever. They heal with a depth that no others can.

Ethics of Therapists who Are Mentally Ill ((((((((((((Wounded Healers)))))))))))))))) Ethics of Therapists who Are Mentally Ill

S

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Yes, I agree. The majority of people who go into "the helping professions" do so for personal reasons and because they have had to deal with demons themselves.

But the point is, have they healed themselves enough to heal? If yes, they make wonderful models for self-care and self-acceptance. If no, do they do more damage ~ for example, by having poor boundaries, by emeshing with their clients, by being triggered by their clients and dissociating during session, by going home and getting drunk after a hard day, by taking it out of their children?
  #12  
Old May 16, 2008, 10:20 PM
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You know, Rip, when I earned my doctorate and entered private practice, the APA required "verification" of the previous 5 years of being "without mental defect." That doesn't hold today, and isn't written anywhere. It's just the sad state of affairs of today, I believe. It's a tough nut to crack because with all the people hurting and needing someone to even just listen to them, how can anyone begin to pick and choose at this point?

Obviously you do have an issue with this, and PC is a good place to work that out for yourself. How can we help you?
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Old May 16, 2008, 10:25 PM
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  #14  
Old May 16, 2008, 10:27 PM
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I'm with you on the obese doctors... oh! even obese surgeons who do the obesity surgery Ethics of Therapists who Are Mentally Ill I surely wouldn't trust myself to them? I liken it to a minister who preaches one thing and you see him do another... literally do as I say and not as I do! Ethics of Therapists who Are Mentally Ill
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  #15  
Old May 16, 2008, 10:28 PM
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
_Sky said:
The whole site is basically for support of others, and not intellectual discussions .

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

The title of this site is:

Psych Central: Learn. Share. Grow.

I think the Learn and Grow part falls into discussion of intellectual ideas regarding the forum topic. For example, in the Health areas, people post all kinds of information about Health, as well as support topics.

Perhaps, I am in the wrong place then
(which would not surprise me at all)
because the "learn, share, grow" ~ to me means thinking and discussing things and ideas.


Thanks for pointing out the "assumed by most" purpose of this site.
I guess I did not get it.
  #16  
Old May 16, 2008, 10:31 PM
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Ethics of Therapists who Are Mentally Ill The problem is that on such a site as this, we have many members who are just learning to trust their therapists, whom they dearly need. Since there is no bright-line rule about how much a therapist can do with what ailments he/she may suffer, does it warrant scaring members here with such concerns?
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Old May 16, 2008, 10:34 PM
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
_Sky said:
I'm with you on the obese doctors... oh! even obese surgeons who do the obesity surgery Ethics of Therapists who Are Mentally Ill I surely wouldn't trust myself to them? I liken it to a minister who preaches one thing and you see him do another... literally do as I say and not as I do! Ethics of Therapists who Are Mentally Ill

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Or my favorite....The oncologist who treats lung cancer patients and sneaks outside to smoke after each patient and during lunch.

MD: "Patient, smoking is killing you. You need to stop."
Pat: "How much longer do I have to live."
MD: "cough cough cough. Hold on a second, I am losing my lung."

(FYI ~90% of Lung Cancer is attributed to Smoking, so do not tell me that I am being mean-sprited to smokers. This is a medical fact)
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Old May 16, 2008, 10:35 PM
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Rip, your profile says you help kids... can you share more? Has something happened with a child that perhaps was "caused" or not caught by a therapist, that you had to "repair" and this has you upset about this issue? Perhaps if you could share more about where you are coming from, others will be able to understand too.
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Old May 16, 2008, 10:43 PM
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
_Sky said:
Ethics of Therapists who Are Mentally Ill The problem is that on such a site as this, we have many members who are just learning to trust their therapists, whom they dearly need. Since there is no bright-line rule about how much a therapist can do with what ailments he/she may suffer, does it warrant scaring members here with such concerns?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Well, IMO, yes. I don't see it as scarring, but as making one question whether the T is right for them.
Imagine working for months to trust your T, and then say after 6 months, you learn that your T is puking in the bathroom. All the trust has been shattered. Or your T suddenly changes moods because they are spending all night drinking so they treat you differently and you try to figure out why.

The point is part of therapy is learning better self-care and acceptance from T. If a T has not adequately dealt with his/her problems, how can one model self-care? How can one model appropiate boundaries and behaviors?

And even if they could, how ethical is that. Again, I speak to the oncologist telling a lung cancer patient to stop smoking, but yet the oncologist smokes every break possible. Ethical? No way.
Is the MD practicing, Yes. But is it ethical? Is the MD a fraud?
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Old May 16, 2008, 10:48 PM
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I do hear what you are saying, yes indeed. It could be part of why some patients aren't healing? But how wide-spread is the problem, do you know? I don't have stats if they've been pulled at all. Is it possible that with the institution of the PsyD, with it's lesser requirements, that the idea may have trickled down to even those who just counsel? Perhaps those who would never have earned a PhD, and would stay as they were, are now PsyDs and what we are seeing is an abundance of others who have moved up the chain but without adequate supervision or training? Idk. Ethics of Therapists who Are Mentally Ill
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Old May 16, 2008, 11:08 PM
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I have to agree with you Riptide. Having worked in a voluntary/involuntary psych unit as a provider, I was forever amazed that I saw and experienced the same dysfunctions out on the floor with the patients as I did in the break room with the other docs, nurses, therapists, etc. I think it comes down to BOUNDARIES. If a provider is able to PROVIDE good care for their patient/client and keep their personal stuff out of the relationship, then rock on. If the boundaries break down and the therapist is not able to PROVIDE to the patient/client, then it's time for them to stop pretending and get help themselves. Btw, this should in no way be considered shameful for a mental health provider to get help for themselves. I think it is not only POSITIVE role modeling of self care, it additionally helps to reduce the stigma still associated with obtaining mental health care.

Best,
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Old May 16, 2008, 11:12 PM
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I believe therapist are human like doctors, like anyone else. Therapist's have mental problems, marriage problems, problems with their children, inlaws, parents, the list goes on. They have problems that change with their life just like everyone else.

I do believe that most therapists try not to take clients where they can't be objective. One of prof who is a T, while he was going through his divorce, he didn't take marriage couples or individuals who were going through it. My own T now won't take DID clients if he can help it, because he is too vulnerable to their demands. If we had to wait for all psychologists to be perfect, there wouldn't be a profession. The point is everyone has issues and problems, T's are not super human by any means.
My T says that an effective therapist is one that has been %#@&amp;#! up at one time or another.

As far as doctors, I think a heart surgeon can be an effective one if he has heart disease. People who get into the profession as helpers, have problems like everyone else or they will encounter them as they get older. There is no way to prevent it. It is easier for one to help others than it is to help with their own family, there is no objectivity. A therapist isn't directly involved with their clients so they can keep a objective distance.

But I do think overall they need to be strong to do the demanding job. I would like to see therapists take a break or something if they are suicidal or dealing with personal issues that effect their job.
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Old May 16, 2008, 11:17 PM
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Part of the problem on this, I think, is that other therapists enable the unfit therapist to continue working.
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Old May 16, 2008, 11:24 PM
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I concur.
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Old May 16, 2008, 11:31 PM
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I'm with you on the idea that it's just plain unethical for an obese doctor to promote weight loss etc. but that a mental health care provider should be entirely without his or her own mental scars in order to sufficiently help others I must confess I dissent. I believe that as long as the T's own "issues" (for lack of better word) don't interfere directly with the therapeutic process, then they allow for more empathy and understanding on a much more realistic level than a T with a "clean mental state" who's empathy resides in a void of book knowledge.

Sometimes you just have to feel things, experience them...in order to understand them. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way condoning the practice of therapists who are SEVERELY mentally ill. Only I am saying that unless their own hurdles interfere directly with their clients (or patients, to individual preference...) then the situation is entirely morally rectified by the supplement of true empathy and realistic understanding.
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