[zooropa]

if you read over my last few threads you can see that I had something of a rupture with T over the weekend, around phone calls & stuff. This has happened time & again with her. She just says it's good for me to experience her as being human. I didn't think she was an alien??

We're doing trauma work & I'm triggered as hell & want to call her but I'm forcing myself not to. It just seems like there have been so many times when calling her has ended up with me feeling worse instead of better. I can't afford to take that risk right now, I'm already on the edge as it is.

Part of me knows this is old behavior, this drawing away & pulling inside myself. In the past when I got hurt or even *thought* I might get hurt, I'd cut people off. Delete their phone numbers, never speak to them again. I have turned my mind from that and opened myself up again and again with T, because I'm trying to do things different now. Trying not to do those old behaviors that got me where I am.

But ****it. I'm tired & scared & hurt. I'm not calling her. I may or may not go to my next session, probably I will but I have got to hold something back here, not give myself up to her completely for her to hurt me again. I will deal with whatever's going on with me in whatever way I can, whatever way I have to, whatever works.

Originally Posted by zooropa

Part of me knows this is old behavior, this drawing away & pulling inside myself. In the past when I got hurt or even *thought* I might get hurt, I'd cut people off. Delete their phone numbers, never speak to them again. I have turned my mind from that and opened myself up again and again with T, because I'm trying to do things different now. Trying not to do those old behaviors that got me where I am.

Sorry you're having a rough time, Zooropa. I think what you said here is so important, that you're looking at your own responses and making the deicision to change them and try to grow. Maybe you need some time here to let the emotions dull before you can apply this at the moment, but I hope you can down the road. It's big. (I have a tendency to do similar and made the conscious choice with T to not do that -- we agreed early on that if I got upset I wouldn't just stop talking to her forever, and even when I've needed a little space, I've always come back and worked through things with her. It's helped.).

[zooropa]

thanks notme. I have made the choice, again and again, over the past year of working with T, to keep opening up to her every time my "gut" says to close myself off. Because I know that my "gut" is what's gotten me where I am now, and I want to change that.
Just, this time, I just feel so tired & battered (emotionally, not by T, but just by the constant flashbacks & nightmares & memories lately). Somehow, though, I needed to say this here, I don't know why. To process it, I guess.

Also? I'm aware that part of me is doing this so I can see what T's reaction will be. I want her to reach out to me when I pull away. I want her to be the one to reach out, for once, not always me. I'm not saying I expect her to call me or anything. I don't know what I expect. I just want to see if she will in some way reach out. That's part of it.

To do this to get a reaction out of your t is a bit manipulative. At least you realize that. Now that you realize it, change your behavior. It's your choice. Reach out for help when you need it.

You remind me of my husband. He has lived in fear of being rejected all his life. He does this with me, and there is absolutely no rationale for thinking I will reject him. His philosophy is "I'll reject you before you can reject me." It's totally irrational. He over-analyzes and wrongly interprets the slightest things. No one can live up to that standard. He's gotten better over time and with therapy, but it is tiresome at times.

Don't operate on the presupposition that your t will end up hurting you. You'll end up over-analyzing everything your t does and you'll get your wish. Allow the help. Continue to open up. You'll learn you can survive small issues with other people. Small issues don't have to be turned into big issues.

Originally Posted by zooropa

Also? I'm aware that part of me is doing this so I can see what T's reaction will be. I want her to reach out to me when I pull away. I want her to be the one to reach out, for once, not always me. I'm not saying I expect her to call me or anything. I don't know what I expect. I just want to see if she will in some way reach out. That's part of it.

I don't think this is manipulative in the sense of being pathological. I think it's a normal approach to take in interpersonal relationships, to offer up a little bit, see how the other person responds, see if they offer up something, etc. I think that's how trust is developed and the relationship grows, in many types of relationships. Not something you should feel bad about doing, IMO, unless you feel it's holding you back or is excessive or something.

But I think, here, it's a bit different because the therapy relationship is so unique, and well, one-sided in a lot of ways. There is some of the trust building back and forth, but in therapy, it's a lot more about the client than about the T. So the things you look for in a normal RL relationship, well, they might be a little different in a T relationship. It doesn't mean the T's don't care. They just show they care in different ways...a lot of it, I think, is about being protective of the client and making sure the client, while feeling supported, stays focused on what they want to achieve in therapy/personal growth/etc. and not too focused on the T relationship being the end result. It's all a matter of balancing the different goals of therapy, I think.

But it is different than RL relationships and early on in my therapy, I definitely remember feeling the way you are, that I was sick of always trying, and that I wanted her to do something affirmative for a change. Not sure exactly what changed, but now, I feel really content with my T relationship. I know she cares, I don't really need her to prove it any more. Maybe it's due to trust developing over time, or because I better understand how therapy works so I'm not triggered so easily, or something... but it's nice. I hope this made sense and I hope your T can find some ways to reassure you that she cares.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by farmergirl

To do this to get a reaction out of your t is a bit manipulative.
grrr. The testing & the pull/push reaction are unconscious, automatic, and a classic effect of trauma.
At least you realize that. Now that you realize it, change your behavior. It's your choice. easy to say, but it takes a long time to change this.

You remind me of my husband. He has lived in fear of being rejected all his life. He does this with me, and there is absolutely no rationale for thinking I will reject him.
oh really? Are you his therapist, that you know all his life events from babyhood onward?
His philosophy is "I'll reject you before you can reject me." It's totally irrational.
Ouch! "itotally rrational" is exactly what you hear from people "IRL" who have no understandind of what reasons there can be for ingrained behaviour. I sympathize with your apparent frustration - truly - but it's your DH I have compassion for.
He's gotten better over time and with therapy, but it is tiresome at times.
that's great to hear. Now with some loving reinforcement, he may heal in time.
Don't operate on the presupposition that your t will end up hurting you.
Ah... "don't" is so easy to say.....
Allow the help. Continue to open up. You'll learn you can survive small issues with other people. Small issues don't have to be turned into big issues.
now this is well said, encouraging, helpful. Good job.

sorry, it's late and I'm tired. Don't mean to beat up on you, I just have a lot of sympathy for people who have closed off from life from fear of being betrayed or hurt (again). Just sign me........ sitting at water's edge ......

[BlueMoon6]

Hi Zoo (((((()))))

Also? I'm aware that part of me is doing this so I can see what T's reaction will be. I want her to reach out to me when I pull away. I want her to be the one to reach out, for once, not always me. I'm not saying I expect her to call me or anything. I don't know what I expect. I just want to see if she will in some way reach out. That's part of it.

OMG! Do I do this! I did this so much with dt. I am not sure why, but I have some ideas. I wanted something from her. I wanted to pull back and for her to have the utmost concern for me and call me, reach out to me, show some kind of empathy and nurturing toward me. And I got nothin'. I think the rules are......if you want them to call, you call and ASK for a call back. UGH! The rules! I have done this with dt, just to see her reaction. I was so curious why she had reactiions that were so out of the ordinary for a therapist. I think, but I am not sure, that I made dt into my mother. Her coldness and rejecting manner. And I would try and try to re-do/un-do childhood frustrations, sadness, hurt and rage at my mother thorugh dt. Its easy to say that I believe that, but I STILL cannot connect that feeling-wise.

What do you think? Am I out of line asking you if you see your t as a mother-person to you and are trying to re-do mother-caring through her? Getting her to show some kind of response to you?

The strange thing is, I dont see ftt that way, and my instince tells me, she unlike my mother! Not cold, distant, rejecting etc...My feelings seem to operate on a level I am SO not aware of and that gives me the creeps sometimes.....

[Kiya]

Zoo - "It just seems like there have been so many times when calling her has ended up with me feeling worse instead of better."
I totally relate to this. T wanted me (early on) to call when i was in flashbacks/self harm. But she was NEVER there. Never answered. If i managed to hold off on SH, when she called me back it would be a trigger, and then SH happened anyway. I did end up not calling her anymore when I was in crisis.
I turned to crisis lines - they asked if i called T. *sigh*.
THen i turned to PC only. that was a pretty good move.
Now I am starting to turn to self (after 6 years of therapy) and realize i can decide something is not a crisis even when it feels like it.
Will turning to PC work for you instead of T? We're here for ya!!!!
((((((((Zoo))))))))))))

[zooropa]

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

Hi Zoo (((((()))))

What do you think? Am I out of line asking you if you see your t as a mother-person to you and are trying to re-do mother-caring through her? Getting her to show some kind of response to you?

The strange thing is, I dont see ftt that way, and my instince tells me, she unlike my mother! Not cold, distant, rejecting etc...My feelings seem to operate on a level I am SO not aware of and that gives me the creeps sometimes.....

((((blue)))) of course you're not out of line at all!! I do think in some ways my relationship with T is like with my mother. I certainly feel that T only cares about me because she "has" to (she's getting paid to) and my mother only did because she was my mother. That they both may have cared for me out of obligation but neither of them like/d me as a person or would have anything to do with me given the choice.

On the other hand, T is nothing like my mother. She is warm & compassionate. She is supportive & validating. I think I bring so much hurt & trauma & fear to the relationship, it wouldn't matter much what she did, you know? Also, we've been working together for a year, and have never talked about our relationship. I get the sense it's not something T would want to talk about.

Originally Posted by Kiya

THen i turned to PC only. that was a pretty good move.
Now I am starting to turn to self (after 6 years of therapy) and realize i can decide something is not a crisis even when it feels like it.
Will turning to PC work for you instead of T? We're here for ya!!!!
((((((((Zoo))))))))))))

thank you, Kiya.
I feel like I need to quit calling her, trying to tell myself not to quit therapy but calling her has just ended up throwing me into more chaos more than once. My plan is to do like you said and turn to PC, try to focus on getting the help I need here & helping other people here, too, when I can.

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

sorry, it's late and I'm tired. Don't mean to beat up on you, I just have a lot of sympathy for people who have closed off from life from fear of being betrayed or hurt (again). Just sign me........ sitting at water's edge ......

thank you!!

Originally Posted by notme9

I hope this made sense and I hope your T can find some ways to reassure you that she cares.

it definitely made sense, thanks. I'm not saying I'm *proud* of the fact that I'm looking for some sign of caring from T, I'm just acknowledging that it's in there, in my mixed up head & heart.

[FooZe]

Originally Posted by zooropa

... part of me is doing this so I can see what T's reaction will be. I want her to reach out to me when I pull away. I want her to be the one to reach out, for once, not always me.... I just want to see if she will in some way reach out.

Since it's her job to do the best therapy with you that she can, what makes the most sense is that she'll reach out to you only if she expects it to somehow move your therapy forward. If you were to find yourself wanting her to reach out to you whether or not it moved your therapy forward, that would be like wanting her not to always do her job.

Discussing this with her, and possibly looking for a therapist who'll respond to you differently, makes more sense than trying to get her to do something for you that she might not think was a good idea.

If she ever did reach out to you, what do you think you'd do then?

My apologies for coming to this thread late, zooropa.

Originally Posted by zooropa

On the other hand, T is nothing like my mother. She is warm & compassionate. She is supportive & validating. I think I bring so much hurt & trauma & fear to the relationship, it wouldn't matter much what she did, you know? Also, we've been working together for a year, and have never talked about our relationship. I get the sense it's not something T would want to talk about....

I'm not saying I'm *proud* of the fact that I'm looking for some sign of caring from T, I'm just acknowledging that it's in there, in my mixed up head & heart.

What kind of therapy does your T specialize in again? It seems, from what you wrote, that your relationship with T is not only very important to you, but it's an important part of your therapy experience overall. There is a lot of rich material to be discovered by talking with your T about your relationship - I should know! And it seems like it's something that you would like to discuss with your T. Have you and your T ever discussed why you are reaching out for a sign from T that T cares? It's great that you know it's there. Maybe bring this up with T now, as scary as that idea can be.

[zooropa]

Originally Posted by dreamseeker9

My apologies for coming to this thread late, zooropa.


What kind of therapy does your T specialize in again? It seems, from what you wrote, that your relationship with T is not only very important to you, but it's an important part of your therapy experience overall. There is a lot of rich material to be discovered by talking with your T about your relationship - I should know! And it seems like it's something that you would like to discuss with your T. Have you and your T ever discussed why you are reaching out for a sign from T that T cares? It's great that you know it's there. Maybe bring this up with T now, as scary as that idea can be.

thanks dream! My T specializes in DBT, & I do wonder if that doesn't have something to do with her approach to how she addresses the relationship with her clients. I don't know, honestly we have never discussed it, as much as I would like to it is also scary as HELL. So many abandonment & rejection triggers. I have never told her that I would like a sign from her that she cares. She has never told me that she cares. I've always thought that would be crossing a boundary for her, for someone who is very warm & compassionate she does a startlingly small amount of self-disclosure.

Originally Posted by Fool Zero

If she ever did reach out to you, what do you think you'd do then?

good question, fool zero! In thinking about how to answer it, I've realized that T has in fact reached out to me in the past. I can think of several times, in fact, either just by saying something like "I'm glad to see you today, I was worried you might not be here", or calling me to check in on how I'm doing, or setting up a time for me to call her back to check in with her.

I guess I'm just feeling especially vulnerable in therapy right now, because we are doing trauma work & we just started that in the last 2 sessions, and that has for whatever reason triggered this need in me to make sure that T is committed to me, to our relationship, that she's not going to abandon me in the middle of this mess I've dredged up??

Originally Posted by zooropa

My T specializes in DBT, & I do wonder if that doesn't have something to do with her approach to how she addresses the relationship with her clients. I don't know, honestly we have never discussed it, as much as I would like to it is also scary as HELL. So many abandonment & rejection triggers. I have never told her that I would like a sign from her that she cares. She has never told me that she cares. I've always thought that would be crossing a boundary for her, for someone who is very warm & compassionate she does a startlingly small amount of self-disclosure.
Do you think the DBT is the best type of therapy for you? It seems that you would greatly benefit from discussing your relationship with T, though I can understand how scary it is. I'm fortunate that my T specializes in object relations therapy, which is all about relationships, and it's a really good fit for me. Still, she hardly self-disclosed until very recently, when she told me I could ask her questions about her life. I held back for a few sessions before even feeling comfortable enough to ask, and I haven't asked much. But maybe it would be easier to hypothetically ask your T if she thinks the therapist-client relationship is an important part of therapy. I know that might lead to T asking you questions about it, and you could say that you're not ready to discuss it quite yet but that it's been on your mind.

I've realized that T has in fact reached out to me in the past. I can think of several times, in fact, either just by saying something like "I'm glad to see you today, I was worried you might not be here", or calling me to check in on how I'm doing, or setting up a time for me to call her back to check in with her.
It does sound like T definitely cares about you.

I guess I'm just feeling especially vulnerable in therapy right now, because we are doing trauma work & we just started that in the last 2 sessions, and that has for whatever reason triggered this need in me to make sure that T is committed to me, to our relationship, that she's not going to abandon me in the middle of this mess I've dredged up??

That is so understandable! Trauma work is so hard and so painful, of course you want T to reassure you that she will be there for you when you need her! Can you talk to T about just that part of how you're feeling, how you need her to reassure you? I've found that often, unless I directly ask my T for something, she won't know I need it - so I told my T recently that I needed her to reassure me about a few things, and she did, and I believed her! I hope you can have the same healing experience.

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

sorry, it's late and I'm tired. Don't mean to beat up on you, I just have a lot of sympathy for people who have closed off from life from fear of being betrayed or hurt (again). Just sign me........ sitting at water's edge ......

Yeah, you did beat up on me a bit. But that's okay. I stand by what I had to say. You are making a huge assumption that I don't know what it is like to be hurt and afraid of being hurt again. I've been there. I never said any of this is easy. It's hard as hell. I completely understand.

[zooropa]

one of the things that's been so great about finding PC is the opportunity to process this stuff, and the feedback from you guys, other people who are in therapy & have experience with what it's like.
For example! I hadn't realized that I was feeling vulnerable in therapy right now, or why, until I was writing my post above. Being able to put into words here is SO valuable! I can go to my next session & tell T that I'm feeling that way, and I would not have even realized it if I hadn't had the chance to bounce ideas off of you people.
now, just to be able to get those words out of my throat and into my mouth and OUT when I'm in session, that'll be the hard part...

oops, realized I didn't answer your question, dream! do I think DBT is the best therapy for me? Well, it certainly WAS, at the time I started, a little over a year ago. I believe it saved my life, no joke. But now that I've gone through the skills training group twice & I'm no longer in the group , I don't actually know that I *need* to have a DBT therapist in order to do the trauma work. Except, of course, that I'm fairly attached to my T.
Then again, hanging over this whole thing is the idea that I don't know if T even wants to keep seeing me after this 2nd year of together is over. If she does not, I imagine I will go looking for a new T, and I won't be looking specifically for one who does DBT, no.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by farmergirl

You are making a huge assumption that I don't know what it is like to be hurt and afraid of being hurt again. .

is it an assumption? If you can say that someone;s being afraid of being hurt again is "completely irrational".
the thing is, I don't think you really meant it though. I think it was probably your (understandable) frustration that that particular wired-in response can even extend to you, who really care about him. BTW I'm glad you keep on being that caring & dependable person for him, even when it's hard sometimes. This is probably what will help him more than anything, having you in his life and finding out again and again that you are there for him, and he can trust you.

It is irrational to believe I would hurt him or leave him. His thought is not based in the reality of our relationship. I've always stood by him. He knows I love him, yet he thinks I'll leave him? That's not rational. It's a thought not built on reality and evidence about ME and OUR relationship. When we extend our reactions to people not based on present reality but on the past, we are being irrational. I do it too. Just see my current thread on turning the corner. (That word "irrational" doesn't bother me. Must be my cbt training at work.) Irrational doesn't mean I'm crazy or even wrong, it just means I'm not basing my thinking on current reality.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by farmergirl

It is irrational to believe I would hurt him or leave him. His thought is not based in the reality of our relationship. I've always stood by him. He knows I love him, yet he thinks I'll leave him? That's not rational. It's a thought not built on reality and evidence about ME and OUR relationship. When we extend our reactions to people not based on present reality but on the past, we are being irrational. I do it too. Just see my current thread on turning the corner. (That word "irrational" doesn't bother me. Must be my cbt training at work.) Irrational doesn't mean I'm crazy or even wrong, it just means I'm not basing my thinking on current reality.

Now you are starting to separate out the truth of the matter (I think). First you say it is not built on reality, then you say it is not built on present reality. You are thinking more clearly than most therapists of my experience when you get there.

Things not based on present reality still have effects.

Words and clarity matter.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by farmergirl

It is irrational to believe I would hurt him or leave him. His thought is not based in the reality of our relationship.

that's it. As my T told me, "I wasn't hurt (when I deliberately tried to say something hurtful to her). I knew that it wasn't about me, not really." That may not help you much, Farmergirl, but maybe it will take some of the hurt out of it. I know it helped me when I finally grasped that fact about my father and HIS behaviour too.

If yr DH could change his "reflex" it he would - God willing he can, in time, with help.

He's somewhat better about it, but he had such a horrendous childhood that he tends to frame interactions with everyone against his childhood. He is aware now that he does it, but he still has trouble stopping those thoughts. It's better than it used to be, but it really p*sses me off from time to time. I'm NOT his mother! Grr.

[zooropa]

I think that's at least the first step, the awareness of the thoughts. I feel like I have so much more to say on this topic, but I haven't slept for days & can't really be coherent right now. Maybe later?

Yes, awareness that you're even having the thoughts is the first step, and it takes time for it to become a habit (I don't know if habit is the right word, but that's all that comes to me right now). It takes a lot of practice.

Sorry to hear you aren't sleeping. Have you called your doctor about that? You may need to take something to break that cycle. Take care of yourself.

[zooropa]

yeah, I called my prescriber on Mon but she said to wait until my next appt & we'll talk about it. That's Dec 23rd. Seriously?? I don't even know. Ready to start self-medicating. I mean, I've already tried benadryl so I guess I've already started self-medicating, but it didn't work.
the sleep deprivation, on top of everything else, it just adds this extra layer of...unreality? And makes me extra trigger-y & flashback-y and all that. I don't have to tell you guys, I'm sure. Ugh.

I'd call her back. Dec. 23rd is just too far away to be this miserable. It's been three days since you talked to her and things haven't gotten better. Maybe she thought it would on its own? Call back. Be a pest until she prescribes something. If benadryl isn't doing it, it may be time to call out the big guns.

[zooropa]

it's hard for me to not be pessimistic, I've had conflict after conflict with this prescriber. But I have no other choice because of my insurance. You're right, though, I should at least call her back today & tell her I haven't slept. Even if she does nothing, I will know I tried. Thanks farmergirl!