email woes

Hey there Sunrise ((((((((((((((((((((SUN)))))))))))))))))))
My T doesn't really email, the main reason being that emails are discoverable evidence in court cases. Some of his therapy patients have become involved in legal issues where he might be called as an expert witness, and he also does a lot of assessments of inmates awaiting trial in criminal court cases at an attorney's request. He also will consult and assess patients at the request of attorney's for civil suit cases of all varieties.

Don't let that sound misleading--my T is not a flashy guy who loves the spotlight or the money (he's a psychologist and doesn't like actual court appearances); he just finds psychological evaluations interesting. Even if he didn't have just a regular practice (which is where and how most of his time is spent-with regular therapy patients), he's been around the block for so long (twenty plus years) that he has learned how to protect his clients from prying eyes. He's very concerned about the privacy of his patients, and tries to protect them from distortions of the truth by attorney's and other unscrupulous people who might use what they discovered against his patient's. I just wanted to throw that out there.

I have called my T before when needed (usually he is seeing patients so I leave a message for a return call on his private voicemail), and thankfully he has always followed through. I don't think my T would be comfortable in the role that your T is playing, Sunrise. He doesn't even want to take the chance that his therapy patient might get hurt by a misunderstanding from the other role, be it as coach or whatever. I'm not sure if I understand your T's "dual role" position as a personal coach during the lawsuit, or if that label even applies. If the role was purely supportive and that of an advocate for you and didn't involve anything else, my T would be down with it. I don't think the "dual role" your T is involved in has anything to do with his failure to respond to your emails. My preference is not to email my T for the simple reason that emails could be misconstrued and get lost in translation. I think my T has similar concerns in this regard, but I haven't asked him because it's not really important in my situation. However, I would be VERY pissed off if my T told me he was going to be there to support me, and then ignored my emails or phone calls/voicemails.

That said, I can't imagine your T would spend all that time with you as your coach during your divorce proceedings (outside of regular sessions), and then just not return your email---my guess is that he flushed the Blackberry down the toilet or whatever . I think that something must have happened, and his excuse is likely valid. If it were me, and I had a pressing issue---I wouldn't email my T; I'd call him, especially if he didn't respond to my email. If your T doesn't answer messages or return calls--then I'd say he needs socked in the jaw. Speaking to patients on the phone outside of sessions are par for the course and all part of the job of being a therapist (my T is the one who confirmed that with me).

Give the guy a call--hell, leave a pissed off message (I know I would be pissed), even if he doesn't answer his phone or return messages. Either way, bring this up with him in session. Tell him you'd be very happy to take his precious Blackberry (or whatever) off of his hands at a reasonable price, considering the guy doesn't seem to use it!
When's next regular session?

That's an interesting observation. It made me remember that when I was just T's therapy client, I did not have his email. It is not present on his business cards and was not offered to me, so I assumed it was "off limits" to clients. I always called him when I needed to reach him (which was rarely), and these calls were almost always about logistical issues such as appointment times. I know his failure to listen to messages in a timely way sometimes screws up his appointment schedule. One time a guy showed up for a session at the same time as me due to a miscommunication he had tried to resolve by phone, but T had never listened to his voice message. The result was a double booking. So with my T, it is kind of the opposite of what you suggested: phone is the only way therapy clients can contact him, but they need to be aware he only checks messages sporadically.

When T also became our coach (after close to a year of being my therapist), I was given his email. The whole team, including clients, uses email to communicate all the time. It's pretty essential for our functioning.

I don't believe my T would get drawn into doing therapy by phone and would easily fend that off with words (not game playing). He has really firm boundaries. Although I think it's great some T's are just a phone call away to support their clients at all times, my T is not part of that group. (I'm a little envious at times of the phone support some of the people here receive!)

Yes, he is there for me 100% and then some whenever we are together. Thank you for reminding me of that. I am sure I will get that degree of support during our next session. If I can let my annoyance over this incident go, I can be open to his support. But I'm not sure that's the best course.... (I worry it recapitulates unhealthy behavior patterns from my past.) Even if I wanted to, it's hard to deal with this with T, because the next time we see each other (alone) will be after the next legal meeting, so there will be a mountain of accumulated stuff to go over: the legal meeting last week where I totally freaked out, and the following legal meeting where who knows what stuff will happen (another sunny freakout?[/shudder]). Hard to add Sunny's annoyance over T's failure to respond to her email to that mix. It somehow seems trivial, in comparison. But there's a different voice inside me saying, it's not trivial. It's hard when there are conflicting voices, and what both of them are saying has merit.

Your feelings ARE NOT TRIVIAL. This definitely sounds like some kind of old message playing in your head. I really don't know what the legal meetings entail and how essential it is that you go over them with a fine toothed comb, and how long that takes.....BUT, to me, this feeling you are having about your relationship with T is the most important thing to talk about. No matter WHAT else is going on, that's what T always wants to deal with first. Sometimes it takes a whole session...but I think it's essential.

That's a good insight sunny. Could you start out the next therapy session with something like "I know we need/should use a part of this session to review the legal meeting, but I want to let you know that I felt hurt/angry/sad when you didn't respond to my email after offering support."

I know I couldn't do it, but you're strong and brave!

I am feeling a lot better tonight! I had a meeting with my lawyer and we got a lot of stuff sorted out. I don't feel nearly so needy as before, and that makes the unreturned email from T seem less of a problem. When I'm totally stressed out and feeling out of control, I am more needy and want his support more. I asked my L what happened during the big legal meeting when the team went off by themselves. What did they talk about? L said, it was mostly T who did the talking. He explained to them all what was going on with sunny, and sunny's H, and how what they were saying and doing was derailing the process. He said sunny has had the rug pulled out from under her by some things you (my H's lawyer) have said, and she is completely overwhelmed. And you need to do X, Y, and Z to support her and get this meeting back on track. (And he had insights too about my H, who had his own set of things going on.) I just felt very cared for to picture T in the back room with the lawyers and financial guy, going to bat for me and watching out for my needs and well-being. OK, yeah, he may not be good at email and phone calls, but he sure is my knight in shining armor sometimes. It was really nice of my L to share that with me.

I think when we meet this week that we are going to settle!!!!!

Awww, it's so nice to hear about your T looking out for you like that!

And it sounds like the end is in sight, divorce-wise! Woo-hoo!!!!!!!

I am so upset right now.

Tomorrow AM we have another legal meeting and I was feeling very positive about this, based on my talk with my lawyer last night. Then tonight at 10 pm, I gave my email one last check before going to bed, and I find a VERY IMPORTANT legal document sent to me by my H's lawyer that I am supposed to review before tomorrow so we can discuss it. This is a very long, dense, legal contract with a lot of technical and financial detail. The document was sent at 5 pm, but I haven't checked my email all evening as I've been out with my daughter and then we watched election results together.

I have asked before that documents be sent 24 hours in advance of our meetings, and we all agreed to that. Now I feel completely rattled and insecure that I am going into the meeting not having been able to review the document and think about it, whereas others have had it before me. I tried to download it and couldn't even get that to work as it was created with a version of Word not compatible with mine. He has never before sent an incompatible document.

I sent everyone a brief email saying I had just received the document and it was too late for me to review it in time for the meeting.

I get very uncomfortable if I am not prepared, and start distrusting people. Like right now I am feeling that my H's lawyer knows how uncomfortable I get and so he sent this document so late just to bug me. I know that is not true. He was just inconsiderate, not deliberately trying to throw me off balance or piss me off, although I am feeling both. I really need to be thinking clearly at these meetings and that requires my full attention, which I can't give if I'm upset. As I wrote upthread, at the last meeting I got overwhelmed by events and didn't behave well. One of the things I did then was bawl out my H's attorney for waiting until the night before or even the morning of meetings to do what he is supposed to do, even when he has a week or two weeks, or even a whole month to do it! Maybe he's getting back at me for taking him to task for that by doing the very thing I reprimanded him for.

The kicker is that within 30 minutes of my sending the message to everyone, T responds to the whole group, trying to smooth things over. (Not successfully, in my opinion.) Anyway, this totally pissed me off! I have waited a whole week for him to respond to an email in which I told him how I am feeling (at his request!) and requested a session with him, and he never responded. After luring me into being vulnerable, he f**king ignored me for a whole week. But now, within 30 minutes, late at night, he responds eagerly to this legal s**t. Likewise, he responded within an hour when I asked him to update his bill. The message I am getting is that the money I owe him is important to him, and this precious legal process is important to him to mind and keep on track. But when sunny needs support, that's totally unimportant--just ignore her and maybe she'll shut up.

I am trying not to let all this bother me--both the document and the T stuff--because I have to go to that meeting tomorrow and be lucid, sharp, and focused. How can I let this stuff not bother me?

I think your H's attorney doesn't care about anything other than his schedule. He also might be trying to snowball you into making a decision regarding the document so that he gets a more favorable outcome for him and his client. Plain and simple--even if it was a mistake and he forgot about the agreement not to, it goes entirely against common sense to send it like that. It was disrespectful and inconsiderate, even if he didn't intend to violate the 24 hr in advance agreement. I would make sure you tell your attorney ASAP that if your H's attorney doesn't respect your right to review what you are dealing with (and disregards YOUR schedule), then you will cancel the next review meeting and reschedule on YOUR time.
I would also make this perfectly clear to your H's attorney at the meeting tomorrow (if your attorney doesn't have the chutzpah to speak up about it himself).

I question the value of any attorney who doesn't evaluate documents and review it with their client, especially important decision-making ones. Your attorney needs a swift kick in the rear. I'd be happy to do that for you!

Taking this together with the above, it's probably because he's trying to pull the wool over your eyes. He severely underestimates your intelligence (I hate it when people do that!).

I think being uncomfortable with being unprepared is a good sign! I don't even recommend that you trust any of the attorney's, yours included. It's hard to know what they are doing if you don't know what is going on behind the scenes. Your attorney should have already reviewed the document that your H's attorney sent you, and actually Sunny--your H's T isn't legally allowed to contact you in any way whatsoever! Everything MUST BE SENT THROUGH YOUR ATTORNEY. That's the law, and also violates the state bar. Is your H's attorney contacting you directly (via email or telephone)? That should be addressed immediately with your attorney. There is no excuse for that.

There isn't ANYTHING wrong with that (unless you called him dirty names or something). I'd actually go a step further and make YOUR attorney do the balling out. Set conditions for what is and is not acceptable. Your H's attorney seems to have a PATTERN of this sort of thing. You don't have to put up with it though. Tell your attorney that it is not acceptable on any level for your H's attorney to control how and when information is shared.

Something you may not know is that your H's attorney has a LEGAL OBLIGATION to forward in a TIMELY manner (usually set by your jurisdictions local rules of civil procedure-you might find these online) ALL DOCUMENTS USED IN THE CIVIL PROCEEDINGS TO THE OPPOSING ATTORNEY.

I recommend you tell your attorney that you want copies of ALL documents filed in court by both you and the other attorney/litigant. Legally, all of these are recorded on the schedule and docket sheet. If you want to check up on your attorney, you can call the clerk of court for the jurisdiction you filed in, and ask for a copy of the schedule and case docket for your case. Nothing can be used in the proceedings that isn't filed with the Clerk of Court.

I think your T was incredibly inconsiderate. I can't think of a legitimate reason, but it is possible. I don't remember, but didn't you say that your T had ADHD too? I might be thinking of someone else, but if he does bring it to him that he needs to work on that. I'd be direct with your T, as I don't find him supportive or helpful in any way at the moment. You don't need the added stress. Make your T aware of what exactly he has done wrong. He should never offer up support and then disappear. I also wouldn't let him have any discussion with any members of the divorce proceedings other than through you and with your prior approval. It could F**& things up, even if it was meant to be helpful. It's hard for me to assess anything about your T right now, and with his inconsistencies in word and action, I'd make sure he's on the same page as you are before you continue with him in the current capacity.

It would bother anyone Sunny. You are not a robot, and no one else is either.

It's frustrating and would make me feel as though I didn't matter, like I was just an object or somebody they tossed a cookie to so that I'd shut up. I'd slam them for their behavior, all of them, but I'd do it in a way that was results oriented. The goal is to change their behavior, and to toss them out if need be. You deserve nothing less than to be treated with respect by all parties. I have faith in you. You will work this out.

wow what more could be said?

Well, Simcha totally said it ALL.

I know this will slow the process down, but don't you have the right to either call off the meeting, OR refuse to discuss this document until you have had time to review it?? You must. Don't discuss it if you're not prepared. It's like logical consequences for H's attorney - send a document at the last minute, it can't be discused until the NEXT meeting. Sorry, H's attorney! It reminds me of how we are supposed to discipline our kids - it's not an emotional thing - it's just - hey, you did this, and now "this" is what happens.

As for T. Well, DANG. That just sucks, and I don't care WHAT you need to discuss after the legal meeting, I really think this e-mail thing and how it's making you feel need to be at the TOP of your agenda. Maybe you can schedule an extra appointment (while you are sitting there with him, not via phone or e-mail) to discuss the legal stuff.

I KNOW that your T has shown you that he cares for you. So, I don't think that is in question. However....he is treating you in a way that is hurting your feelings, and that is unacceptable, and he needs to know about it. Whether it changes his behavior or not, you need to tell him, because YOU deserve to be treated well, and you've got to stand up for yourself.

Sending loads and loads of . Please come back and let us know how everything goes today.

Sunrise...since the 24 hrs was agreed on I would suggest that you either tell your L that you want the meeting reschedule so that you have an opportunity to proper review the document. Or if there are other matters on the agenda attend the meeting deal with those issues, and when this issue is presented... simply move to table it until you are afforded adequate time to review it. I would try not to loose sleep over this particular issue. They breached the agreement, your entitled to take your time. After all the process has dragged on this long what does one more meeting or one more week. Don't let the guys bully you!

Not sure what is going on with your T. He clearly is not getting where you are at the moment. I totally understand why you do not want to email him again. It is just a shame that you are having to withhold your suffering until you meet. Do you think it would help you at all, to just send him an email vent? Not one where you expect a reply. One where you just express in a plain and direct way that your dissatisfaction with support(or lack there of) this week. I don't know if that would make you feel any better or not.

You are just dealing with so much at the moment. ((((Sunrise))))

I think there is a possibility that your T did not get the email, or that he "missed" it amongst other emails and thus never even read it. From what you have written here about your T, it seems very unlikely that he would purposefully ignore your email, especially since he initiated contact. Maybe he has a spam folder and it somehow got in there, which happens to me all the time.

I had something similar happen to me, and I found out about 6 months later that my T never got my email. I knew it was true because of things she said that proved to me that she couldn't have read it.

Well, my meeting is come and gone. Simcha, some of your comments were very interesting to me... When I read them, it makes me realize how revolutionary collaborative divorce is and I actually feel good to be part of that, instead of the litigative system. It's not like I want to be going through a divorce, because it sure is hard, but if I have to, I am glad of my choice to use the collaborative process (a form of alternative dispute resolution).

She did, made some changes, and gave the OK to my H's lawyer to send it on to the clients. But he didn't send it to us 24 hours in advance, which was the problem.

Our lawyers and other team members send group emails to the entire team, including both clients. This is the common system of communication in collaborative divorce and is agreed to by all at the outset (in a legal document signed by everyone). My H's lawyer has never called or emailed me individually. There is no prohibition against this in our agreement, but there has been no need for it. My own lawyer does email and call me individually. I have emailed my H's lawyer a couple of times, but always copied my own lawyer on the messages. Interestingly, during our big meetings, anyone is allowed to pause the meeting and call a sub-meeting with anyone else. I have asked my lawyer very specifically if I could call a sub-meeting with any combination of people, and she said yes. So I could actually meet privately with my H's lawyer during our big meetings. Kind of wild, isn't it?

I have copies of everything. All documents are shared in collaborative divorce. Oh, and there is no litigant. We are not litigating. It's a paradigm shift!

Yep, bingo. I think he's worse than I am.

Our divorce coach is part of our team and employed by both my H and me. The team members all communicate with each other from time to time without sharing the communications with their clients (me and my H). This is part of our signed agreement. Sometimes it does suck, I admit, because I can get feeling paranoid that they are talking about me behind my back. Once I became privy to some of these behind the scenes communications by accident. Some of what was said about me made me hit the ceiling! I remember I totally exploded at my lawyer and told her I wanted her to recant and apologize for what she said (it was inaccurate!) to the other team members. She did. She called them that day and tried to make things right. She also volunteered to step down as my lawyer if I wanted. Talk about ruptures! But we survived. In general, it is the lack of confidentiality between me and my coach that has been the hardest for me. Although I had confidentiality with him as a therapist, when he became coach, I had to waive that. I try to deal as best I can and keep in mind that he has my best interests at heart and will do nothing to harm me.

Thank you so much. I think I have worked out a lot!

I think you are very wise, April. Thank you.

((((((((((((((SUNRISE)))))))))))))))

Just a hug!!!!!
You know, some things are more important than words.