Family therapy is hard

Why do you say that? I think you're misunderstanding our interactions. I do not attack my daughter and never said I did. I do not raise my voice, yell at her, or make insults or cutting remarks. My typical response is reasonably asking her to desist. You are mischaracterizing our interactions. I wonder if you are projecting how you would react into this? I am just not like that, pachy, and I hope I didn't give everyone here the wrong impression. The family therapist says I need to make sure when my daughter does this that she understands she is hurting me by her comments. I have tried that approach many times before but it has not worked. Her knowing she is hurting me has not promoted change in her. Yet the therapist says I should keep doing it. I'll follow his advice because have nothing left to try. Maybe he'll have me run through his ideas even if I've tried them before, just to clearly eliminate what doesn't work.

I do not attack with sharp claws, with sharp tongue, or any of that. I wonder why are you saying that? I am sorry if this is how you interact with your kids, but it is just not me at all.

I do see that she is angry, afraid, etc. We have known that for some time. (Anger often stems from fear.) So we know there is something underlying her behavior, but we don't know what. Perhaps this knowledge has indeed influenced my responses to her (created greater sympathy?) and that is why I do not attack her, yell at her, hit her, etc. However, I am at the point now where I realize that even if I don't know the root causes of her behavior, I can still insist on respectful treatment and behavioral changes. I am a person too and don't deserve this. So right now I'm trying to identify strategies that will promote behavioral change in her. She can work on the underlying issues at her own pace, if she wants to, with her therapist perhaps. I can't help her with those because she won't tell me what they are. We have all surely tried. If she changes her mind and wants to provide more information on the underlying issues, I am always there to listen, and I have made sure she knows that.

Thank you so much for your suggestions, Susaan. I am looking for ideas, and appreciate it! I have said just about all of the things you suggested to my daughter many times. So far, they have not helped her behavior. Maybe somewhere inside, though, she does appreciate them.

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I know your daughter is in therapy. Do you think she has something "diagnosable"?? Like, someone mentioned, attachment disorder or some other thing?

I am completely projecting my own experiences here - but with my middle son with autism (who is only 8), we had a hard, hard, hard, HARD time figuring out how to connect and interact with him. Once we learned what was going on, we learned new ways to approach him that helped. AND we learned that his negativity, volatile reactions, etc. are part of who he IS, and not necessarily something that can be "fixed" - at least not in the way I would do it with my other sons (kind words, love, connection, modeling, talking about it). He just requires a different approach.

Not that your daughter has autism, obviously, but just putting the thought out there that maybe there is something "more" going on than just typical teenage bad behavior....

And as out there as this might sound, A LOT of his volatile behavior was related to food allergy issues. Once we got rid of the foods he was sensitive to, he calmed down....A LOT. Some kids are really, super sensitive to things like preservatives, etc. and it really shows in their behavior.

None of this may apply to your situation AT ALL - but I know you are looking for ideas, so thought I'd just throw some more out there.

I know from experience how hard it is to have a kid that it's hard to connect with. I know you are giving it your all....but give yourself a break too, if you can. Balance. You need time and space to breathe, even if it means just ignoring how she is acting and shutting yourself in your room with a book or a movie or whatever.

You may be right, I may be projecting, it may be how I would react instinctively, and have to work on not carrying that through in action.

But is there no truth to what I say in your mind, if not in your overt actions? Are you not preparing for a battle? Maybe not. I may be off base.

No battle for me, either inside or out. I don't know how to do that. I am not "normal" in that sense, pachy. As you said, you might "instinctively" react as you projected onto me, but there are some wires crossed in me somewhere and I don't react in the angry, attacking way that many people might. (Not that I'm some perfect, ultra-nice person or anything.) I don't have that instinct or have repressed it or something. It's probably part of my pathology, but for what it's worth, it's me. This caused me problems in my marriage because I didn't stick up for myself. I'm trying to learn how to do the boundaries thing, but one thing I won't do is attack, yell, snipe, etc., at my kids. I don't see that that is productive, and it would also be very "fake" of me to do that. It reminds me of how when I first started therapy, T told me I could express anger by punching a pillow and he wanted me to do this in his office. I tried, honestly I did, but it felt so stupid. So fake. It just didn't work for me. T picked up on this pretty quickly. "I can see the pillow is not going to work for you," lol. Pachy, thanks for your comments, though. With enough people offering diverse comments and views, maybe some of them will help or inspire.

My worry about myself is that instead of doing a battle, like a normal person might, I will just exit the situation. I tend to do that in life and must fight against it. I do need to stand strong and stay in this relationship with my daughter. I know I do. I want to do that. But I just get so tired sometimes.... A nice thing is that with the separation from my H, I get a few days of "down time" without my daughter. That allows me to recuperate and build up my reserves, and then I can be better prepared to meet what she offers when she returns. Oddly, when she is with her father, she will sometimes call me and sounds kind of forlorn, and rather nice actually. She called me tonight, and our talk was OK! (Maybe absence makes her heart grow fonder?)

I like that, SpottedOwl. Thank you. I think there is some wisdom there for me. I think I am trying to fight her pain with verbal and even physical manifestations of love (e.g. hugs), and that doesn't work--the walls go higher. I need to "listen" more closely perhaps to what she does need.

Although in therapy, my D is not usually that communicative, one time she said something really amazing to me. She said that one thing she really liked about me was that I knew what she was thinking and feeling without her having to say anything. And then she continued that she really liked how I didn't leave her alone when she was sad or mad. Wow! And then that door closed and she said nothing else. But that gave me encouragement that she really did want me to "pursue" her to try to talk to her and see what the matter was even when she was acting like a butthead and pushing me away, insulting me, and certainly not giving me an answer. I need more moments like that!

The family therapist says I should be hurt by what she says. And that I must tell my daughter that her words hurt me. I shouldn't build walls and go behind to protect myself (been there, done that, and it really is not the direction I want to go in with my personal growth). I should allow myself to be hurt and let her see that and her role in it. About the consequences: I do need to be better about that. I find it hard to give consequences for every transgression since there may be hundreds in a day. It is wearying. I feel I just need to let some of her infractions go. But the therapist says no. He says I need to confront her with her hurtful actions and try to talk to her about why she does that. It's all so confusing. Thanks, Sannah, for your comments.

I dont' know, EM. It worries me and I try not to think about it. As you know, I'm not into diagnoses and labels. But I do have niggling worries sometimes that she may have a personality disorder or maybe Asperger's or something. I try not to think about it. I don't want to label her. And her therapist is not a diagnosis-centered practitioner either. EM, do you think there is an advantage to pursuing a diagnosis? Maybe I will ask this question also of my PNP. My D's T is more centered on the relationship in her approach, and I think it is indeed very important that my daughter learn to have a relationship with someone. Invaluable. There was a bit of a crisis with my D's therapy a few months ago and I was wondering if she should quit or decrease her sessions. At that time her T told me that my D was depressed. She was very blunt and matter of fact about it. It was really unlike her to say this. I think maybe she offered it up to me to make me see how important it was for my D to stay in therapy and not let her withdraw from it. D was trying to push T away and T was trying to hang tight with her, which was not being helped by Mom telling T that session frequency was going to be decreasing!

EM, thanks for sharing your experiences with your son and about how your acceptance of him helped. If it is OK to ask, what is your approach with him? Maybe some of what succeeds with him might help us too.

I do not think it is typical teenage bad behavior because it did not start with the teen years. I think things really changed for her when she was about 3 years old. She was really different before then. Sometimes I look at pictures of her before this and get a bit of a jolt. Her whole facial affect was different. I don't remember anything traumatic happening to her at that age.

How did you find out what foods he was sensitive to?

Thanks for understanding. And for all of your ideas.

Do you know what has made you feel that way? I wonder if it's similar.

That is how I often feel too. But then other times, I think otherwise, as Earthmama wrote.

This "age" she is at has lasted for many years.

Sounds very wise. I struggle with the idea that her journey should include inflicting pain on others.

Maybe that's kind of like what the therapist was trying to tell me when he said I needed to have confidence in the part of me that was a good mother.

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions, chaotic.

Thanks everyone for all your thoughtful comments. Even when comments didn't seem to fit, they helped me clarify in my mind what does fit.

Yes, I really do. My son wasn't diagnosed until he was 6 - although we did a lot of interventions with him prior to that time (working with a nutritionist, occupational therapy for sensory issues,etc). I was REALLY torn on the whole "label" question, and I struggled with it, even AFTER the diagnosis.

BUT having the diagnosis has actually helped in many ways. When I take him to a class, I can say "C has aspergers" instead of "good luck!" like I used to, and it helps the teachers know what to expect from him. I can read books by and about people with aspergers and it helps me know how he sees the world and what is helpful and not helpful to him. We realized that he's not going to learn "social skills" by osmosis like typically developing kids do, and now work with him and let him take classes that help with that.

The biggest (and most unexpected) advantage to having a diagnosis was that once we shared it with HIM, his world started to make more sense. He knew that he was different from other people, and was starting to say things like "i'm stupid" which were SO not true, but his child's mind's way of trying to make sense of why he wasn't like everyone else. Once we were able to talk to him about autism, in a positive and accepting way, his attitude about himself changed. Now he feels sorry for people who DON'T have autism It gives us a "language" we can use when he's getting out of control or having a really hard time in a situation that wouldnt' bother other kids.

AND having the diagnosis helped with his brothers (he is my middle son). The rules are a little different for him (because like you said about your daughter, if there were consequences for every possible thing he does, it would happen like 57849345345 times a day), and it helps his brothers understand why.

As for the food sensitivities, we had some testing done - I can PM you if you want more information. Or, you might want to look at the website for the Feingold diet, which we follow loosely in addition to the other food things we do. A lot of people have had success with that for various things.

Whew! Is that a long enough answer for you?? I really understand the "label or no label" question, and it was a hard, hard, hard one for me, but for us, I'm glad we chose the path we did.

Sunrise, I agree with you about the fake feeling punching the pillow. I wanted to punch someone (not sure who) real, not a substitute!

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i'm so sorry you're having such a hard time with your daughter. it sounds really tough. it does sound like you've tried many things. have you also tried being a little bit tough with her and taking away privileges and things like that? maybe take away her phone, ipod, ground her from fun activities, etc. those things always worked like magic with me and my sis.

you mentioned something about consequences but i'm not sure your being hurt by her is a consequence. i think that is more an effect of her behavior. i'm thinking a consequence would be something she deals with because of her inappropriate behavior.

don't know if any of that is helpful but i do hope things get better.

When people who are hurting or are really having issues say something hurtful to me I am able to not feel so hurt about it somehow???????? I guess I must think that it is the hurt or the issue saying this and not them so I don't take it personal?

One more thing Sunrise. When your daughter does this does it remind you of another relationship when this happened too? If so, this could be about more than just what is happening between you and your daughter and this could be what is making it so hard to deal with and making it more complicated.

Sunrise - I just read your original post. Not sure where I've been that I missed it =( It was hard to read since in my position, my dad is in you shoes in terms of me. I walked away from the "relationship". He tried his best to fix it, gave me an ultimatum of "you go to counseling with me or this relationship is over." I said "OK, it's over". And we haven't talked since. I think it's been three years. I hear that he won't even mention my name now in his house (with his new wife). You asked "how do you walk away from your child?" Maybe if you just allow space...the child will see things different and return? I fought horribly with my mom in my early 20ies. But now things are sort of alright. I haven't read the rest of the posts, so I'm really behind, but hoping you are ok out there.
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Thanks, Kiya. Unlike your father, I never gave my daughter an ultimatum to go to counseling with me. I don't want to force her to go to therapy, and actually, she was pulling back from her individual therapist and I supported her on that, but her therapist really wanted therapy to continue for my daughter's sake. It turns out they were having a big rupture, and that was why my daughter was pushing her away, and they needed to make it through that. They are now doing OK again. For the family counseling, twice I have suggested canceling appointments (busy schedule) and both times my daughter said no, so I guess maybe she is getting something out of it. I have tried giving my daughter space, as you suggested. Has not helped. But I still do it. I have tried giving her love. Has not helped. But I still do it. Etc. Etc. I guess maybe if I hadn't given her those things or tried all I have, it would be even worse? I don't know. It would be so helpful to me to have some positive feedback so I know what is helping, if anything. I guess I am just a parent who is not capable enough, smart enough, or loving enough for this challenge. I have tried all my ideas. And the ideas offered here (except perhaps Earthmama's), pretty much are what I have tried--love, sympathy, not attacking, space, understanding, etc. I think the discipline ideas are an area I am very weak on. I don't know how to get her to do stuff. She doesn't obey. She has no things I can take away as privileges unless it is food, like tell her she could have no sweets. Even if I removed all the sweets from the home, though, she would just buy stuff from vending machines at school. She doesn't have any friends so I can't tell her she can't do activities with friends. She has no Ipod or similar she really likes. She has a cell phone but has no friends she communicates with on it, so she wouldn't care if I took it away. She has a laptop but it is from the school and she has to do all her homework on it, so I can't take it away. She does like sports but if I forbade her to play on her teams, she would say "fine" and then sit at home and be even more isolated. Is that really what I want? I want to encourage her to exercise, be healthy, and her sports teams are about the only way she has of interacting with other girls her age, since she has no friends. I guess maybe my best bet is the sweets. Just clear all of that out of the house and let her have the privilege of having sweets as reward for improved behavior. I'm just not sure it would work but I guess I should try everything possible.

Kiya, I'm really sorry you and your father are estranged. It sounds like he tried so hard and when you rejected his effort to mend things with the help of a counselor, he closed his heart to you. It was just too painful. I'm so sorry. Maybe with time, he will open his heart again. Your story scares me as I don't want to close my heart. Kiya, like you, my relationship with my mother is much better now than when I was younger. Maybe that's partly why I want the relationship with my daughter to mend now, so we don't have to go through decades before coming back to each other. I am glad you have had that mending experience with your mother.

Sannah, our relationship reminds me a little bit of my relationship with my mother (with my daughter talking on my mother's role). My mother was very harsh and unloving to me with lots of yelling and anger and hitting. I retreated inside myself to protect myself. Now I have a daughter who kind of treats me in the same abusive way, and I do fight the temptation to withdraw, the strategy I used as a child. It's a strong, strong pull and I am reaching out to this family therapist for help on this, for support on "staying in the game." I tend to withdraw under the onslaught of anger, and I think my daughter knows that and uses it to her advantage. It is so hard to try to stay open and present in the face of that. But I have worked very hard in my own therapy to be better able to stand up to mistreatment and "not take it," and I think in part this is helping me want a better relationship with my daughter and recognize I deserve better treatment. But I do get tired and then think well maybe I just have to admit I am not up to this and give up. I told the family therapist that giving up ("walking away") would probably look like each of us living in separate parts of the home and not speaking to each other. It's not that much different than how it is now, but I would have given up trying. It makes me sad to think about it. The therapist commended me for not doing that and not giving up and said he sees parents who do. They retreat to their office or TV or whatever. The therapist definitely wants me to let my daughter know about her hurtful behavior. I guess even if that won't stop it, maybe it has some education value. Perhaps someday she will put 2 and 2 together and realize that is why she has no friends and that if you want friends (or other relationships), you have to respect people and be nice to them. I have tried not being hurt by her, but that builds a wall between us, because it is not authentic. I don't want a wall. She's my daughter. There is something deadening in continually turning the other cheek to abuse. I don't want to be dead.

Sunrise-

I only have a second - but what you describe about your daughter - about consequences having no meaning to her, or her not caring if you take something away - sounds SO MUCH like my aspie son, and my friend's son with Aspergers. It's one of the most frustrating things with them - consequences that would matter to other kids mean NOTHING to them.

Plus, the thing about her not really having any close friends....I don't know, but I am really wondering about an aspergers eval?? The thing about her suddenly "changing" at 3 kind of makes me think of that too.

Most kids with aspergers are diagnosed around age 11, so you are not that far off. I have NO IDEA, obviously, if your daughter has anything even remotely like aspergers....but if she DOES, she sees the world totally differently than other people, and it requires a completely different approach in a lot of ways.

Just a thought.

ALSO, as crazy as this sounds, increasing calcium and fish oil intake is really calming for kids. I can tell you more on PM if you want because brand, etc. is really important.

Ok! This was quick and off the top of my head because my son is waiting for me, but I'll be happy to PM more if you want - or you can just tell me to shut up, and that's okay too!! lol

Sunrise,

Reading your posts, I can't help not feeling a bit guilty. The interactions you describe sound a lot like my relationship with my mother. My poor mother was in a lose-lose situation. She would deny herself to make my father happy and the house afloat only to turn around to see the look of disgust on my face. I couldn't understand why she was denying her wants/dreams and lowering herself to love and take care of a drunken idiot. I think at the time I loved my mother, but I could not stand how she accepted the submissive wife role. It is hard for me to admit it but...I hated her and her patriarchial religous BS for not standing up for herself. (Ironic huh)

Like you discribe your daughter, I was very disconnected from my feeling. I did however have friends but, none that were particularly close.Everyone was kept at arms distance because of fear that they would eventually turn on me.Boyfriend was nice accessories, but you couldn't let them too close because then I would be at risk for being controlled or enslaved like my mother. I just had a lot of stupid misperceptions about how evil the world was..and how NO ONE was going to make me do anything I didn't feel like doing. Like your daughter, all those "Love and Logic" techniques were unsuccessful. Having my dad threatening to "kick the s+@it out of me" at this age, left me shaking in my shoes--NOT!

Honestly Sunrise, I don't know what my parents could have done to move me out of these behavior patterns. Locking me out of the house, would have just prompted me to insure I had a plan B in case of no bed. Not doing my laundry...would have prompted me to do a load of my OWN laundry. If I didn't get spending money...I would have probably just quit school and got a job...didn't really want to go anyway.

I was just an angry, little b#tch and no one else was going to change that.

I can say that deep under all that anger and fear there was a kid who care about her mom, and dad for that matter. When I was out running a muck, I avoided getting too wasted, or not coming home at all because...when I did come home the door would be open, the lights on, and my mother sitting her chair. I hated it but I knew what it meant. I also knew that a lot of the kids I was hanging out with, didn't have that, but for some stupid reason they wanted it????

I don't know what the best way to handle a wayward child is. All I can say is..I out grew most of those behaviors, I've learned what it means to love and appreciate the people in my life. I am not the stupid, ungratiful, free loader that my dad said I was going to be.
Maybe I was able to turn things around because my mother wore out her Bible praying for me.

Hang in there Sunrise, stand up for yourself, and keep modeling the behaviors you think she needs to learn. Hopefully she will figure out soon that she is ... "standing knee deep in the river and dying of thirst."

Sunny,

As I read your response to Kiya I began to notice a couple of things. First of all you are so frustrated because you don't want to give up on your daughter but you don't know what to do to help her. That is the absolute worst place for a parent to be. (((Sunny))

When my son was sick we tried many different doctors and surgeons until we figured out the right path to take. It took about 5 or 6 opinions and a whole year to figure out what to do. Maybe the two therapists you are consulting are good but not right for this case.

Could it be your daughter is depressed? Have you discussed this possibility or other "organic" illness possibilities with her therapist? Is her therapist experienced enough to diagnose this? Is the family therapist? I think you are right--it doesn't seem like taking something away is what is in order here, but it does seem like it would be great if you figure out how to connect--what "turns her on?" Is there anything at all she enjoys? Does she want an Ipod? Could you use it as incentive? What about a girls day out (makeup, hair, etc.). A yoga class? I don't know -- I am reaching (I only have sons).

Anyway, I am thinking of you.

I think Ms C is a good one. If you think she is just drifting and hasn't found anything that seems to really ignite her passion, maybe you could look for a few cool things that both of you could enjoy together. Art class,sunday movie matinee,spinning class.
Didn't you have a girls weekend with your daughters a while back, could you do it again? BTW...how is she relating to her sister at this point?

Oh, Sunrise, that *does* sound so hard for you. I've just read over this thread for the first time, and I want to tell you something that stands out for me. That is: I really think you are doing everything right. So you're not seeing any results as yet... but, from your daughter's odd comments to you, it seems clear that she does appreciate the therapy and all that you are doing for her. I guess what I mean is: even if your daughter isn't capable of making dramatic changes right now (let's face it - adolescence is a horrible, confusing and moody time), you are doing a fantastic job of paving the way for a great relationship with her later on.

With regards to setting limits and consequences to her insults and bad remarks towards you, I wonder if you have tried stating you won't tolerate it and walking away? For instance, let's say in anger she has insulted you about something... you could say (very calmly /matter of factly) "I know that you're angry and I do want to talk about your feelings / this situation / what is upsetting you, but the way you are talking to me right now is hurtful and I am not willing to subject myself to that. I am going to ________ (do something in another part of the house) and I will be ready to listen to you when you are ready to talk about it with me respectfully." Using this method, any retorts are best responded to by simply repeating what you have just said, as many times as necessary. That broken record method respects her feelings, and conveys your willingness to talk about it with her when she is ready to respect *your* feelings and boundaries. It allows her to know that you *are* still there for her, but you're not willing to be treated like crap.

You have probably tried this already. But if not, it might be worth a go.

Best wishes with it all Sunrise. You are doing the best you can, and I really do think that, in the long run, it is going to be more than enough.
(I wish I had had a mom like you!)

Wow, isn't this the truth!!!

Sunny - I just can't find words....
The fact that you are trying everything probably makes you a good parent. Kids either will or won't turn around (probably will) in time. Just keep loving her (not smothering her) like you are doing. There's nothing worse that a parent walking away (and i am not implying my own).
My dad -- was my abuser. i had to walk away. it was just... i mean it touched me - to read your plight... like something that he is probably going through.
You've got guts and courage to even have had kids to begin with (I refuse to even date!). You'll find the right stuff. There's no doubt in my mind that you have what it takes.
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