[internettie]

My 21 year old nephew, my sister's son, has lived with me and my husband off and on since he was 9. The longest he stayed with us was 2 1/2 years. A year ago he was in jail and wanted to come out and live with us again when he was released. I told him that, for lots of reasons, it wouldn't work out.

A year later he has nowhere to live, no job, no prospects of a job, and no income. I love this boy like my own. I would do just about anything for him. He's asking again if he can come out and live with us. Again, for lots of reasons, my answer will be no. He's calling me Sunday to discuss our decision (I haven't told him no yet this time). I'm so anxious about this that I can't even sleep.

How do I tell him no without crushing his spirit?

How do I tell him no without seeming like I'm not there for him?

How do I tell him no and let him know that I still love him and want the best for him?

He is doing drugs and alcohol right now but says that he would stop if he could come out here and get a change of scenery. Whenever he's come out here as a teen or older he's always found drugs. What would make this time any different? I don't want drugs and alcohol in my house.

He has a felony on his record, so this time getting a job is an issue. He would come out here with no money, no car, and no job. He'd have to use my car to go to interviews and work until he could save for his own vehicle (if he could even get a job). I'm in therapy 2x/week (Tuesdays and Fridays) and in DBT group 1x/week (Thursday nights). I also do a Bible Study on Wednesdays.

Should I be expected to give up my life in order to try to find one for him?

I've just started with my new T and don't want to stop seeing her. We are starting on a journey together to my wellness. I finally have some hope. I feel guilty for choosing my life over my nephew's life.

And because I'm doing all this therapy every week, finances are tight. We really can't afford to have anyone living with us (extra utilities, food and clothes).

Is this the time that not helping him would help him even more? Does he need to do this on his own this time? I certainly could make everything easier for him, but I don't know that doing that is in his best interest. If he came out here I'd definitely get him into therapy, but who's going to pay for that also?

Argh! I'm so frustrated and don't know what to do! How do I tell him no without losing him? All I can offer him is help in finding resources (job training, housing help, that kind of stuff). Is that enough? Am I being selfish about therapy?

Any advice would be welcome.

[deliquesce]

(((((internettie))))
imm a bit out of it from my meds s tonght but just want to say stay wtrong in your decision and you are doing the best.. im sure others here willl hvae more useful advice but i wanted to send you my love and hugs.

xo deli

((((((((((((((((((((((nettie))))))))))))))))))))))

Can you call your T for some help in setting boundaries? I have boundary issues with my mom, and my T has gone so far (just this Friday, actually) as to call and practically leave me a SCRIPT. He does help me understand what "normal" boundaries are, which I have a ridiculously hard time with.

Let me tell you about my brother....he is 35 years old, and has been rescued over and over and over and over and over and over again by my parents - ever since the first time he was arrested at 12 for shoplifting. He has NEVER faced any consequences for his actions, ever. He is unemployed and living in a swanky apartment downtown, paid for by my mom, who pays for 100% of his living expenses. He is an alcoholic and a drug addict, but living this fancy life he feels completely entitled to. My dad died a few years ago - my dad was young and employed at the time and had a LOT of life insurance, and my mom told me she is running out of money, because of my brother, who she will not say "no" to. The money should have easily lasted her the rest of her life, and beyond.

I think that if my brother had ever been forced to face the consequences of his own actions, his life would be different....and so would my mom's....

So, although you love him dearly, you do not OWE him anything. His choices are HIS CHOICES. I know it is hard and scary to say "no", but if that is the right thing for you and H, you have every right to say "no". I wish someone had said "no" to my brother at some point.

It's scary to wonder what will happen once we say "no". My mom is afraid my brother will be homeless or kill himself - those are scary thoughts...but T would say that my brother is an adult, and that his choices are his choices.

There is a lot of good information on the internet about detachment...maybe reading some of that would help??? I know how impossibly hard this is. The detachment stuff has helped me a bit with my mom....

(((((((((((((((((((((((Nettie))))))))))))))))))))))) thinking of you!

[tarabug922]

Internettie,

I want you to know that I speak from experience. My older brother is a drug addict and a serious one. He started on meth at age 11 finally got off at age 28. But it was only when nobody would pick him up that he finally realized he had to pick himself up. He had to go through being homeless to realize he wanted something better for himself. He had to realize that his lifestyle was so miserable that it ruined things for those around him. He had to realize that others didn't want to be around the drugged out alcholic he became in order for him to change. He finally did change but again only because nobody was willing to bail him out any longer. Once you've established drug circles in a certain town it's almost impossible to go back to that town and not pick up in those circles again. So your nephew coming to live with you is not a good idea. You are right, follow your instinct. Let him know you love him and although he may not understand right now, he will in time.

I hope I'm not being too pushy with info, it is only my experience and may not be yours. But I hope it helps in some small way.

love and hugs,
Tara

[Mouse_]

Internettie, Its hard to feel ok about taking care of ourselfs first, but that we must or we'll no good to anyone else, we all have choices in life and sometimes we need to experience the downside of our choices to really want to change, if someone is always picking us up, we become to dependent.

[ECHOES]

I admire your ability to make the right decision here, which is of course "No".

You tell him matter of factly you aren't able to have him come live with you. Tell him that decision is not about your love form him; that you love him and you want his life to be better and you want him to be happy. You don't get into other details no matter how much he prods you.

He is calling you Sunday as part of how he works, how he manipulates by guilt, promises, and wearing the other down. I am absolutely sure he means what he says about stopping the drugs and alcohol although I am equally sure it won't happen in spite of his meaning it.
He feels desparate; this is just the time that real help for him can be effective.

You know that his coming to live with you isn't the magic potion he's making it out to be. It is not what will get drugs, alcohol, and jail out of his life. I have no doubt that he does not want these things in his life. But the answer is not to come live with you. He needs to decide to commit to intensive treatment in a treatment center that can remove him from the availability of drugs and alcohol, can provide medical help while he is coming off of them, and initial psychological treatment that he will need to commit to continuing.

Tell him you support his desire to stop using drugs and alcohol. That you believe in him, that you know he can do this, that he is a worthy valuable person. That is how you are there for him.

He's looking for a quick fix and a way to continue the lifestlye he is living. Saying "No" is the healthiest, most supportive thing you can do for him and for you.

When you talk to him on the phone, remain firm, try to keep a smile on your face to remind yourself that this is an act of kindness, giving him responsibility for his life. Keep the call short and the minute you feel him trying to increase the manipulating and guilt, let him know you understand all the things he is saying, yet your decision is firm; then wish him well and end the call.

I have been through something very similar with my son a couple of years ago when he was 27. Making him responsible for his own life was very very difficult but it was a gift. Saying "No" to dependency was a way of acknowledging that he was capable of working on the issues of his own life. We remain close. I have supported him by being supportive rather than providing things for him. He's doing well and I don't think he ever would have been able to do this on his own; he needed that "No".

It is an act of love.

[internettie]

(((((((((( deli, earthmama, tarabug922, Mouse, ECHOES ))))))))))))

I am totally blessed by all of your responses. I needed to read those stories about family members in the same position as my nephew. I know that making things easier for him isn't the answer. "NO" is the answer that will help him. I know he won't understand but I will be okay with that because I know I'm doing what's best for him.

deli: Thank you for the effort. I know how meds can zonk you out.

em: Yes, I can call T and leave her a message. I don't know if she'll get back to me in time but leaving a message may help me work through the conversation. I will also do some research on detachment. Setting boundaries is so difficult for me, especially with people who are prone to anger (like my nephew - another reason to NOT let him live here). I am afraid of the same things your mom is afraid of - that he'll be homeless or kill himself. I had a brother that committed suicide and I know it was his choice to do that, not my fault in any way. Thank you for sharing your brother's story.

tarabug922: Thank you for sharing your brother's story. I know that Brad needs to take responsibility for himself before he'll make any gains.

Mouse: It is difficult taking care of my needs first. I think about flying on an airplane though and they always tell you to secure your mask first before helping someone else. It's not a selfish act to take care of me first. I need to keep telling myself that.

ECHOES: I stayed awake for hours last night wondering how to respond to my nephew. I think that your plan would work better - just be matter of fact about it. If I make it a big deal, it will be a big deal. He's been dragging this on for weeks now, hoping to wear me down, I think. He called yesterday to tell me that he would be calling from his mom's today. He wanted to know if my husband and I had talked but he didn't want to know the answer until today. Total manipulation. He wants to be in control of this situation. I can't let it go that way though. Thanks for sharing your son's story. All of these real life examples are like gold to me.

Thank you all again for responding and sharing. I really needed this support, encouragement and advice.

[skeksi]

You're making the right decision, internettie. You're right that "NO" is the right answer. Staying with you can happen, if at all, until he proves he is worth being trusted. He needs to take responsibility for himself, not ask you to take responsibility for him.

I know it will be hard for you to have this conversation with him. I'll be thinking of you.

when the call comes...take your phone and sit by the computer and read all of these posts as you talk to give you strength.

__________________________________________

geez...why do we all have brothers like this????

i get to join the club too. only i have a sister as well. she is skitzophrenic (i am sorry i just can't spell that right) and a drug user and violent. i threw her out of my house when i was caring for the abusive mother from hell after her stroke and she beat her. i have not seen her since then (1988). i had heard at one point that she was homeless.

i live in fear that i will get a phone call like yours or that she will appear on my doorstep. this woman has tried to kill me a few times (I am 4'11"...she is 6' ).

i imagine that if she is taking her meds and sober that she might be a nice safe person...but i don't want to take that chance. i have been hurt to many times. i have witnessed the aftermath.

BUT i feel like you...how can i..someone who proclaims to be a "good" person turn away someone in need? it is indeed a dilema.

i spoke with my t at length about it. her thoughts...if she does call...first off..don't let her in. second...have at hand a list of shelters and mental health programs where she could go.

i too have worked very hard to heal. from abuse caused by my family of origen...allowing my sister (or her equally sociopathic and abusive twin brother) into my home to potentially harm me would negate all that i have done.

i'll probably never feel comfortable about my stance but i know it is the correct one.

[internettie]

(((((((((( skeksi, stumpy )))))))))))

I thought about telling Brad that if he would follow all these rules that I give him he could come out but he's 21 and doesn't need me to make up the rules for him. If he were sober. If he were clean. If he didn't have an anger problem. IF. IF. IF. But I know the way it would go. It's gone that way at least 5 times before. It always ends up the same - we give him a chance and he takes advantage of us.

Keeping these posts in mind when he calls is a good idea. I can feel all the encouragement and support and that strengthens me. I'll probably never feel comfortable about my decision either but I too know it is the right one.

[darkrunner]

(((((((((((internettie))))))))))))))

What a difficult position you are in! There have been a lot of great responses and I don't really have much to add, except to tell you again you are doing the right thing, and I support the difficult decision you are making.

It probably won't ever feel good, but sometimes hard decisions just don't feel good - that doesn't mean it is wrong..........
you are doing the best thing for him and for yourself.

Stay strong and know we are behind you.

ktgirl

[internettie]

(((((ktgirl)))))

It is a difficult position to be in, for all of us who have been there. It's good for me to keep reading that I'm doing the right thing though. Thanks for your support.

[Simcha]

Originally Posted by internettie

My 21 year old nephew, my sister's son, has lived with me and my husband off and on since he was 9. The longest he stayed with us was 2 1/2 years. A year ago he was in jail and wanted to come out and live with us again when he was released. I told him that, for lots of reasons, it wouldn't work out.

A year later he has nowhere to live, no job, no prospects of a job, and no income. I love this boy like my own. I would do just about anything for him. He's asking again if he can come out and live with us. Again, for lots of reasons, my answer will be no. He's calling me Sunday to discuss our decision (I haven't told him no yet this time). I'm so anxious about this that I can't even sleep.

How do I tell him no without crushing his spirit?

How do I tell him no without seeming like I'm not there for him?

How do I tell him no and let him know that I still love him and want the best for him?

He is doing drugs and alcohol right now but says that he would stop if he could come out here and get a change of scenery. Whenever he's come out here as a teen or older he's always found drugs. What would make this time any different? I don't want drugs and alcohol in my house.

He has a felony on his record, so this time getting a job is an issue. He would come out here with no money, no car, and no job. He'd have to use my car to go to interviews and work until he could save for his own vehicle (if he could even get a job). I'm in therapy 2x/week (Tuesdays and Fridays) and in DBT group 1x/week (Thursday nights). I also do a Bible Study on Wednesdays.

Should I be expected to give up my life in order to try to find one for him?

I've just started with my new T and don't want to stop seeing her. We are starting on a journey together to my wellness. I finally have some hope. I feel guilty for choosing my life over my nephew's life.

And because I'm doing all this therapy every week, finances are tight. We really can't afford to have anyone living with us (extra utilities, food and clothes).

Is this the time that not helping him would help him even more? Does he need to do this on his own this time? I certainly could make everything easier for him, but I don't know that doing that is in his best interest. If he came out here I'd definitely get him into therapy, but who's going to pay for that also?

Argh! I'm so frustrated and don't know what to do! How do I tell him no without losing him? All I can offer him is help in finding resources (job training, housing help, that kind of stuff). Is that enough? Am I being selfish about therapy?

Any advice would be welcome.

He should be sent to a halfway house... why aren't they doing that for him? They usually do on parole... hmm.

Well, I don't think it's a black and white thing--- you said you felt like you would be "losing him" if you did not completely provide for his welfare (you even said clothes). Why would that be losing him?

I think another way to look at this is that this is a growing up period for him. He sounds like he needs intensive rehab. I doubt prison has helped much in that regard (typically if they have drug/alcohol rehab. programs they are substandard anyway).

If you take care of him like he's a little boy, he isn't going to change anything. If you have kids you don't want them around his influence either.
Your life is valuable and you must do everything to safeguard it first before you think of trying to save someone else. BTW, I don't think anyone can save your nephew but himself. He can have guidance from a distance.

I'm not saying this to be judgmental either, I've just a lot of experience with this situation from my own close family members, one of whom is in prison for drugs right now. You don't need another problem. Your nephew needs to take responsibility for his own life. You can help from a distance and with restraint. Remember, he lived with you before and it didn't stop him from going to prison.

Curiosity--- where are his parents?

[internettie]

He's never known his real dad. His step-dad hates him. My sister still does too much for him so he's never really had to fend for himself completely. They are firm on him not living with them but they aren't too far from him. My sister helps him out with food and rides at times and lets him do his laundry at her house. Basically they've had enough of him too. My sister loves him but she has 5 other kids at home (Brad is the oldest), 2 teenage boys and triplet teenage girls. He's not a good influence on them and the tension between him and his step-dad is ridiculous. Both of them need to grow up.

He hasn't called me yet. If he doesn't call me by dinner time, I'm going to call him. I can't let this be dragged out past today. I'm sure he knows by now that my answer will be no.

He's not on parole. He did all his time, so I think that's why there wasn't a half-way house. It's ridiculous though because they just boot them out into the world without any assistance and then wonder why they end up back in there. I feel guilty at times because I wish he were back in jail. Then someone else could be taking care of him - providing meals, shelter and clothes. And he has said that if he ends up on the streets again, which is probable, he will do something to get put into jail. That would be his choice.

I love him and care about him I just can't take care of him.

[Simcha]

Originally Posted by internettie

He's never known his real dad. His step-dad hates him. My sister still does too much for him so he's never really had to fend for himself completely. They are firm on him not living with them but they aren't too far from him. My sister helps him out with food and rides at times and lets him do his laundry at her house. Basically they've had enough of him too. My sister loves him but she has 5 other kids at home (Brad is the oldest), 2 teenage boys and triplet teenage girls. He's not a good influence on them and the tension between him and his step-dad is ridiculous. Both of them need to grow up.

He hasn't called me yet. If he doesn't call me by dinner time, I'm going to call him. I can't let this be dragged out past today. I'm sure he knows by now that my answer will be no.

He's not on parole. He did all his time, so I think that's why there wasn't a half-way house. It's ridiculous though because they just boot them out into the world without any assistance and then wonder why they end up back in there. I feel guilty at times because I wish he were back in jail. Then someone else could be taking care of him - providing meals, shelter and clothes. And he has said that if he ends up on the streets again, which is probable, he will do something to get put into jail. That would be his choice.

I love him and care about him I just can't take care of him.

You can call him in prison? I must be missing something here.
You are right that the prison system as it is doesn't reform anyone. So he must have screwed up badly to not make parole, unless he was ineligible?
I know with jail they just throw you out but I don't know what they do with prison and I wouldn't expect your nephew to give you a straight story.

I really don't know how to tell you that it's not good to have someone else completely taking care of someone else... if that makes sense. Not even husbands and wives should take away self determination and autonomy from their SO.

We all need to take steps to take care of ourselves, and those lucky amongst us who find our partner in life by way of a spouse who can build on what that person already has in place is really a great thing. Teamwork really is key to successful relationships, and both people have to be pulling their weight. This is true no matter what the relationship.

Here's the thing though---your nephew as you already know, isn't really interested in taking care of his own business.

I don't really understand this boundary thing everybody talks about here. I think it has to do with people not separating themselves from other people, and relying completely on other people to define them or something?
Letting people walk all over you would be a boundary issue right?
Sounds like your nephew?

Yep, sounds like a home life disaster for the nephew, but now your nephew is old enough to grow the hell up and start taking responsibility for his own successes and failures in his life. He needs a place to stay, and I'm sure he can figure something out that doesn't involve bringing down those around him until he can get a job.

There might be an agency for helping ex-felons re-integrate into society that he can contact in his area, you think?

[internettie]

Sorry that was so confusing. My nephew was in jail (not prison) last year. He got out this past summer. He didn't have to go to a parole officer because he did all his time in jail. So, he's been out for about 7 months. In all that time he hasn't been able to secure a job, a stable place to live or to save any money.

Part of this is definitely his issue (job, shelter, etc.) but part of it is mine too. I've done a lot of thinking today and I believe I am hesitant to say no to him because I want to be 'the one' who 'saves' him. Not only do I have issues with my nephew, I have issues with my husband too. I was never taught anything about boundaries or respecting others' space, so I have a difficult time maneuvering in this territory.

I realize now that it's not my place to save Brad. God needs to do that if that's what He wants to do. There is something about giving everything up to help someone (Thanks, Mom! can you say martyr?) that has been drilled into my head. And I'm going to have to do a lot of work to change that way of thinking. I'm starting that work by setting boundaries with my husband and now I can set a huge boundary with my nephew.

Brad told me yesterday that he was out of minutes on his cell phone and that he would have to call me from my sister's house. I'm not sure I believe he's out of minutes. I think he just wants to control this situation as long as he can and live in the fantasy of coming out here.

There probably are programs for him back there (outside of Boston) and I sure could help him find them, but then I'd just be doing the same thing all over again - doing for him. He's going to have to figure out who to ask and do the asking.

Every time I read the title of this thread I think, "What the heck am I thinking?". I certainly am in no position to quit therapy at this point. Especially to take care of a 21 year old.

I've also thought about calling him. I'm not going to do it. That's just playing into his game and I won't do that. He'll have to call me.

Nothing seems to make this any better, but all the support and encouragement makes it a little less difficult. Thanks to everyone again. ((((((((((all))))))))))

[skeksi]

You've made some excellent, strong decisions here, internettie. I know they haven't been easy, but they've been what you need to take care of yourself and your family. I applaud you.

[ECHOES]

but then I'd just be doing the same thing all over again - doing for him. He's going to have to figure out who to ask and do the asking.

I agree completely with you. You could tell him to look and even how to begin the search, but it's his search. He will be so proud of himself when he takes an important and positive step.

Hang in there. You're doing great.

[phoenix7]

my sister isnt on drugs although she does drink - she used to leave her husband and turn up on my doorstep and turn ,my life upside down and then go home in a few days I felt like a hotel - I love my sister but there came a time when I said to her that this would be the last time I pout her up - that I would help her set herself up somewhere but she could not keep coming to me - it was very hard to do - and I felt awful - but there comes a time when you have to realise that you can offer help but you have to offer it within boundaries (hate that word)

shes been through a lot and stil is and I am there for her but i have learned that im all out of emotional ... oh - I guess im saying if my batteries are flat thats it i cant help anyone - that doesnt make sense does it - sounds harsh - dont mean it to be - but if you dont take care of yourself... I think you know what i mean - take care - hope it works out for you stay strong P7

[imapatient]

Can't contribute about what is the best thing to do. But I do want say that it sounds like you've been doing great since you made the (difficult) decision to switch in T's. Whatever happens, I hope you can keep up the good work.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

I admire your ability to make the right decision here, which is of course "No".

INettie - I so much admire what Echoes has written here. I have a similar family issue, it is SO HARD to be in this place.

I once asked a very wise man what do you do, when you keep trying to help someone and it never seems to get better? He said, you need to look at the kind of help you are giving; maybe the help you are giving isn't helping at all.

Be strong!! if this young man ever finds his feet, which is certainly somehting he CAN do, he will bless you for it for the rest of his life.
hugs to you

[Sannah]

Stay strong Nettie, he needs to find his own way. This isn't your fight. You have to take care of yourself........

[internettie]

((((((((((skeksi, ECHOES, P7, imapatient, sawe))))))))))

P7, that didn't sound harsh at all and I do understand what you are saying. I'm just not used to putting myself first.

imapatient, I am doing good work with this new T. It definitely was the right thing to switch T's.

sawe, "maybe the help you are giving isn't helping at all" - how true. What I've been doing just isn't the answer. "No" is the answer.

My nephew didn't call last night. I'm not surprised that he didn't.

I did some thinking and realized that this is a familiar pattern for me. My mom always asked things of me and I wasn't allowed to say 'no' (so, I'm not quite sure why she asked then, she should have just told me). The pattern continues with my husband. He asks me to do something for him and I know that I don't really have a choice once he asks. The answer has to be 'yes' or I'm letting him down, disappointing him. It doesn't matter if I don't want to do it or would be inconvenienced by doing it, I still feel like I have to say 'yes'. That's what's going on with my nephew. He's asking a question that 'yes' has to be the answer to or he'll be disappointed. He is in no way considering what effect it will have on me if I say 'yes'. Putting myself first is uncomfortable, but I'd rather be uncomfortable for a while and keep going to therapy to try to work this out.

I hope I'm making sense.

[internettie]

Originally Posted by Sannah

Stay strong Nettie, he needs to find his own way. This isn't your fight. You have to take care of yourself........

Thanks, Sannah! It isn't my fight and I do need to take care of myself. Thank you for reminding me.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by internettie

realized that this is a familiar pattern for me. My mom always asked things of me and I wasn't allowed to say 'no'

The pattern continues with my husband. He asks me to do something for him and I know that I don't really have a choice once he asks. The answer has to be 'yes' or I'm letting him down, disappointing him. It doesn't matter if I don't want to do it or would be inconvenienced by doing it, I still feel like I have to say 'yes'.

That's what's going on with my nephew. He's asking a question that 'yes' has to be the answer to or he'll be disappointed. He is in no way considering what effect it will have on me if I say 'yes'.

Putting myself first is uncomfortable, but I'd rather be uncomfortable for a while and keep going to therapy to try to work this out.

I hope I'm making sense.

You are making total sense and I'm glad you would rather be a bit uncomfortable and keep working on this!

It isn't your nephew's job to consider his effects on you. This is your job. We can't leave our wellbeing in the hands of others. It has to be our job.......