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  #26  
Old Apr 09, 2009, 12:59 AM
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Rapunzel Rapunzel is offline
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Nope, she didn't blurt it out in frustration. She selecected it as a strategy.

This is more than a hurdle. It is a solid, thick, cement wall. I can't get through it, over it, under it, or around it. I can throw myself against it continuously until I'm a bloody pulp though, and somehow that feels a little bit better.

So high, I can't get over it. So low, I can't get round it. So wide, I can't get round it. Oh, rock my soul.

http://forums.psychcentral.com/showt...642#post992642
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  #27  
Old Apr 09, 2009, 01:14 AM
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Luce, I don't know what to say. I can't remember ever being acceptable or okay. Not okay to claim that I hurt, or need anything. Not okay to trust my feelings. Should be seen and not heard. Unless you're cute. Haven't been cute for a long, long time.
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  #28  
Old Apr 09, 2009, 12:26 PM
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Kiya Kiya is offline
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Rap.... *gentle hugs to you*.
I too was not allowed to be heard (even tho being cute at that age). Was not allowed to express anger or discontent. Wasn't allowed to make noise while playing, had to be in the back room when the parents were watching tv 'if i was going to make noise' - which of course i was, i was 2-5.
In therapy she's trying to get me to speak out for what I need. But then I think I should have all my needs met, and when they are not I go back to thinking none of my needs will be met, so why have any. Last session i asked and got a need met. It felt really good.
Maybe there is something with T that you can ask for, be heard on, and have a need met? Like this whole "crazy" word?
*more hugs*
kiya
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  #29  
Old Apr 09, 2009, 12:30 PM
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So her strategy is to shock you forward?????

You can get through it Rapunzel. I like Kiya's idea of starting with one small step.

Are you aware of your needs Rapunzel? If you are past this first step then the second step is to have a plan to meet them.
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  #30  
Old Apr 10, 2009, 09:05 PM
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SweetCrusader SweetCrusader is offline
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Any chance she was trying to roll with your resistance? (Are you familiar with motivational interviewing??)

Knowing you in a little more depth, and knowing her as well...

I would guess that you've probably put a lot of energy into, in different forms, trying to convince her and yourself that you ARE crazy and beyond repair, etc, etc, etc.

Knowing T, I would guess that she was taking that perspective to try to get you to oppose it, as they do in MI, instead of being the one arguing for change. Trying to disengage from or avoid a power struggle in which you were fighting to be defined as a hopeless case, and she was fighting to convince you otherwise.

Does all that make sense? If not, pm me and I'll try to sort it out more.

Of course, I'm not her and I don't know what she was thinking. It just sounds suspiciously like that to me.

I'd be willing to put money on that she didn't mean it to be literally what she said.
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  #31  
Old Apr 10, 2009, 10:03 PM
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Rapunzel Rapunzel is offline
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I guess she could have been checking to see if I can challenge her statement. I guess I can't. Any kind of paradoxical intent will always fail with me, and is really dangerous, because I'll take it literally and go with it.

I am familiar with Motivational Interviewing, and rolling with resistance. I hadn't thought of that, maybe because I didn't think of myself as resisting. At that particular time, I was trying to present a positive to start the session, being aware enough right then to remember that it never goes well when I start with telling about something stupid that I did, and being nervous because I almost got my car towed because I had gotten it stuck in park while I was at a red light, and I panicked and couldn't even remember that I put the car in park to try to get the back door closed properly, or how to get the car back into drive when the light turned green. I was trying to avoid starting with that story, which happened as I was on the way to that appointment.

I feel hopeless a lot, and probably do put a lot of unconscious energy into trying to convince her that I'm beyond repair. My sister, who is a psychiatrist, essentially said that I am. My sister said that I should always have someone at least monitoring me (said during the year that I was on a roller coaster of depressive episodes, and discovered SJW, and was hypomanic once or twice due to SJW overdoses, ...). And my instructors in my master's program said over and over that BPD is a life sentence, and that "the only cure for borderlines is a bullet in the head." I don't know how to be ok. I never have been.
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  #32  
Old Apr 10, 2009, 10:15 PM
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Sannah, I don't seem to be aware of my own needs. I tried to think about Kiya's suggestion of asking for something small. I can't think of anything to ask for. I just realized part of the extent of not being aware of my own needs. I don't run on a set schedule with appointments, at work. I just have a list of clients I need to see, and I go find them when I'm ready for them. I offered a session to a client early this afternoon, when he had just gotten back from a work project. He asked if he could have time to eat lunch first because he was starving and his group was about to have lunch. I told him it would be a few hours before I could get back to him, because I did have groups that run on a set schedule. After the groups, he wasn't there and I found other clients to work with, and it got late, so I asked him when I went the second time today to offer him a session, if he had eaten dinner yet. He had. I didn't even realize until after that session, when I was going home and it was 7 p.m., that I didn't eat breakfast, lunch, or dinner, all day, and I was starving, and it didn't even occur to me to take a meal break even after those conversations with my client, making sure that he got his meals.
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  #33  
Old Apr 11, 2009, 03:51 AM
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Kiya Kiya is offline
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"And my instructors in my master's program said over and over that BPD is a life sentence, and that "the only cure for borderlines is a bullet in the head." "

=( What a TERRIBLE thing to say!!!! I can't even imagine someone saying that to someone else. GRRRRRRRRR. I'll GRRRRRRRRRRRRR on your behalf. Jeeze. My dad is BPD and he used to threaten that about himself to us all the time. what stress, what drama!!! (coming from him).
Well, I disagree with your instructor Rap. One day at a time. You've gotten this far. No reason you shan't go farther still. And i Grrr again to your instructor.
*safe hugs*
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  #34  
Old Apr 11, 2009, 11:21 AM
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It was several instructors. They didn't know that I have BPD, but I still think their comments like that were way inappropriate.
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  #35  
Old Apr 11, 2009, 12:11 PM
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pachyderm pachyderm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapunzel View Post
my instructors in my master's program said over and over that BPD is a life sentence, and that "the only cure for borderlines is a bullet in the head."
Master's program in what? Professional hostility towards people who are suffering?
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  #36  
Old Apr 11, 2009, 01:01 PM
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SweetCrusader SweetCrusader is offline
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Rap,

Let me preface what I'm about to say, so you can understand my intentions because I think they could be easy to misread. I am writing this in support of you- that is, trying to help you put pieces together and make sense of occurred btw you and T-- because the rest of us can't really know what was going on in that room. We have incomplete data.

So what I'm about to say is not a criticism, or even a judgment. It's an observation that could be helpful to you. If it's not, then please feel free to disregard it.

My experience of you is that you are almost constantly resisting, and almost constantly trying to show how bad off you are. I think it comes from feeling invalidated and feeling as though the people in your life are always trying to tell you that there is no problem, or that you don't really need help. It has seemed to me over the years that one of your patterns has been to over and over again describe just how bad things are, and to compile lists of everything that you see as wrong with you, and to put energy into trying to convince people to "see" you, and know that you really are in a desperate situation and really are in need of help and love and attention.

I think sometimes that also gets translated into a refusal to get better. I am not saying that you stomp your feet and throw a fit and say "I don't want to get better." But I think there are parts of you that strongly resist it. Probably because, as you have said to me before, you fear not having an identity without your diagnoses, and not being interesting. I think what's underlying all that is that you fear not being seen or not having people involved in your life or concerned about you.

I have also heard you tell me about lots and lots and lots of interactions in which T has tried to find ways to help motivate you toward positive change, and you have resisted or sometimes felt invalidated by T, and responded to her with asserting how bad things are. And she has, in the past, rolled with your resistance and "agreed" with you that things are hopeless or whatever, trying to elicit change talk and help you find an impetus for movement.... rather than engage in a power struggle with you.

So I figured that her comment might be another instance of that. I don't know what to say about how you began the session- I wasn't there. And I don't know how that ties in with what she said. However, I do know that T always hears more than the literal words we say... and she responds to our hidden meanings much more than the words.

Also, I think it's possible that you are more capable of looking beyond the literal than you present here. You're incredibly intelligent. I wonder what could be driving you to want to interpret her words literally?

Again, all this is said in the spirit of helping you sort stuff out. Hope it is helpful.
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T said that I am officially crazy.

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  #37  
Old Apr 13, 2009, 12:28 PM
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Sannah Sannah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapunzel View Post
I don't seem to be aware of my own needs.
This sounds like a good place to start then........

I really disagree with that statement about BPD!
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  #38  
Old Apr 13, 2009, 10:33 PM
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SweetCrusader SweetCrusader is offline
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Originally Posted by Sannah View Post
This sounds like a good place to start then........

I really disagree with that statement about BPD!
I do, too, but it's a common view in the field of psychology.

Rap, I hope I didn't shut this conversation down for you. If you want to continue the thread without my input, just say so and I won't post again. You can tell me on here or via text.

Shutting you down wasn't my intention. Offering another perspective, in hopes of helping, was all I wanted to do. So if that wasn't the effect of my posts, just let me know and I'll stop offering my take.

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T said that I am officially crazy.

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  #39  
Old Apr 14, 2009, 02:17 PM
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Rapunzel Rapunzel is offline
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SC, thanks for thinking of it, but you're not shutting me down. I'm just taking some time to process. I'll respond again soon.
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  #40  
Old Apr 15, 2009, 12:32 AM
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Rapunzel Rapunzel is offline
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Originally Posted by SweetCrusader View Post
Rap,

Let me preface what I'm about to say, so you can understand my intentions because I think they could be easy to misread. I am writing this in support of you- that is, trying to help you put pieces together and make sense of occurred btw you and T-- because the rest of us can't really know what was going on in that room. We have incomplete data.

So what I'm about to say is not a criticism, or even a judgment. It's an observation that could be helpful to you. If it's not, then please feel free to disregard it.

My experience of you is that you are almost constantly resisting, and almost constantly trying to show how bad off you are. I think it comes from feeling invalidated and feeling as though the people in your life are always trying to tell you that there is no problem, or that you don't really need help. It has seemed to me over the years that one of your patterns has been to over and over again describe just how bad things are, and to compile lists of everything that you see as wrong with you, and to put energy into trying to convince people to "see" you, and know that you really are in a desperate situation and really are in need of help and love and attention.

I think sometimes that also gets translated into a refusal to get better. I am not saying that you stomp your feet and throw a fit and say "I don't want to get better." But I think there are parts of you that strongly resist it. Probably because, as you have said to me before, you fear not having an identity without your diagnoses, and not being interesting. I think what's underlying all that is that you fear not being seen or not having people involved in your life or concerned about you.

I have also heard you tell me about lots and lots and lots of interactions in which T has tried to find ways to help motivate you toward positive change, and you have resisted or sometimes felt invalidated by T, and responded to her with asserting how bad things are. And she has, in the past, rolled with your resistance and "agreed" with you that things are hopeless or whatever, trying to elicit change talk and help you find an impetus for movement.... rather than engage in a power struggle with you.

So I figured that her comment might be another instance of that. I don't know what to say about how you began the session- I wasn't there. And I don't know how that ties in with what she said. However, I do know that T always hears more than the literal words we say... and she responds to our hidden meanings much more than the words.

Also, I think it's possible that you are more capable of looking beyond the literal than you present here. You're incredibly intelligent. I wonder what could be driving you to want to interpret her words literally?

Again, all this is said in the spirit of helping you sort stuff out. Hope it is helpful.
I've been trying to figure out how to respond to this, and I still don't know. I don't even know what my feelings are. Something hurts, I guess, but I don't know what or why. I don't care if I'm crazy or not, or if anybody thinks I am, or not. But I would like to be understood and validated. I'm not sure that anyone can understand and validate me. I can't even do that myself, and if I can't, nobody else would be able to.

There is a premise in DBT that acceptance strategies and change strategies need to be carefully balanced, because change strategies tend to be experienced as invalidating, yet too much acceptance also invalidates, since it can communicate that the problems, pain, hurt, etc. are okay and, well, to be accepted. Maybe that is where I'm stuck. I can't feel accepted or acceptable where I am, but I still can't really imagine or deal with much change, and I don't even know what I want. I want to be taken care of and held tightly in a warm blanket so that I will be safe and warm, but I want to be free and independent and competent and able to help other people. Neither one feels safe or secure or comfortable for long.

I guess T and I have been working up to calling me crazy. She started calling some of my beliefs or feelings "psudopsychosis" several months ago. She doesn't accept Seasonal Affective Disorder, even though I have always felt bad more when it's cloudy or foggy and when the days get shorter, and my last T agreed that I do have a seasonal pattern. I can deal with clouds for a while, but especially when they stay for a long time, I feel them, and it feels like the clouds get inside me, and despair and hopelessness set in. Heavy fog that lasted for weeks on end has contributed to incidents when I felt suicidal. I'm only half joking when T jokes about "pseudopsychosis" and that "the martians do not steal our brains," and I respond that it's not the martians - I'm fine with them - it's the clouds. She doesn't believe in PMS either, and I don't think that I have PMS (can't speak for other people), but when I get a day that I hurt and I'm bleeding a lot, and it's cloudy too (feels like a rainy day somehow intensifies that, too), I do get irritable and feel hopeless and have a short fuse, and everything seems worse than it usually does. I wish that she would just accept that I feel that stuff. No, it doesn't absolve me of responsibility to control my choices and behavior, but it does make everything harder. That's all I want - just for it to be okay to say that I hurt and these things make it feel worse.

I do make lists and collect diagnoses, and present them as if my symptoms were the real me, or like they were my resume. I don't know how else to see myself, and I still seek for validation that this really is the way that I am, after growing up being humiliated and called a liar for trying to say that something was wrong and I needed help, and then having that continue for at least 30 years from one side or another. I don't know what it will take to make that go away or even feel settled.

I recognize that I resist a lot, and I wish that I could stop, but I don't even know that I'm doing it most of the time, and I don't mean to. I think it will take more than traditional therapy to even reach it, and I'm afraid of being rejected if I say that I need anything else. But I have tried self-hypnosis to work on self-esteem, and it helps a little bit. And I tried TAPAS accupressure last night to specifically find and understand and heal my resistance (it's going to take more work - I could feel several blockages, and I don't think I got through them, but trying made me shake and tremble all over). I'm trying to use the DBT skills that I teach to others, and I have some success, but not enough. Nothing is ever enough. Which brings me back to my Psychosis #1 - I can never be good enough and will always be rejected and hated, no matter what. Which doesn't quite add up, and is a miserable way to be in the world, so eventually I'll bounce into Psychosis #2: Nothing matters anyway because I don't matter, don't exist, and nobody notices me so I'm essentially invisible.

And I don't know why I'm so literal either, and I know that I shouldn't be, but I guess everything is so black or white or other extreme, that non-literal meanings don't easily occur to me. What would be a less literal way to understand "T said that I'm officially crazy?" She said it, and repeated it the next time too, and she's not talking about having me put away in an asylum (we don't do that anymore, generally), or pushing anti-psychotic meds (I told her I didn't want them, since we couldn't think of any herbal ones). Come to think of it, now I remember that we did go through something like this before, when she said that I "would have to be crazy" to maintain some of these ideas that I cling to. But the ideas are still there, apparently in full bloom. I wish that I could let go of them, but what else is there? Round and round in circles we go. It is so frustrating. Maybe even more so for her than it is for me.
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  #41  
Old Apr 15, 2009, 12:12 PM
SpottedOwl SpottedOwl is offline
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(((((Rapunzel)))))

Quote:
Maybe that is where I'm stuck. I can't feel accepted or acceptable where I am, but I still can't really imagine or deal with much change, and I don't even know what I want. I want to be taken care of and held tightly in a warm blanket so that I will be safe and warm, but I want to be free and independent and competent and able to help other people.
Where you are is exactly where you need to be.

You're feeling stuck. Just let yourself feel stuck. Try not to analyze *why* you are stuck, just experience what 'feeling stuck' means to you.

I believe that feelings come up for a reason. That if we can allow ourselves to experience the feelings, then we can process them and move forward. If we try to ignore the feelings, they will just repeat until we do give them a voice.

I know it can be really uncomfortable to just sit with feelings -- take it as slowly as you need to take it. Maybe even just try to do this while in session with T -- try to stay with how you are feeling that day, and ask T to help you with this.

Thanks for this!
phoenix7, Rapunzel
  #42  
Old Apr 15, 2009, 01:13 PM
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Sannah Sannah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapunzel View Post
I want to be taken care of and held tightly in a warm blanket so that I will be safe and warm, but I want to be free and independent and competent and able to help other people. Neither one feels safe or secure or comfortable for long.

These are extremes and you belong in the middle???????

Psychosis #1 - I can never be good enough and will always be rejected and hated, no matter what.

Psychosis #2: Nothing matters anyway because I don't matter, don't exist, and nobody notices me so I'm essentially invisible.

she said that I "would have to be crazy" to maintain some of these ideas that I cling to. But the ideas are still there, apparently in full bloom. I wish that I could let go of them, but what else is there? Round and round in circles we go. It is so frustrating.
Maybe understanding where these 2 thoughts come from will help you stop them? I mean really understand where they come from with all your feelings not just you logical mind.

When your T debates you about the SAD and PMS maybe she is just debating these sources of your distress and not your distress???????
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Don't let your problems or the world make you feel small. Stretch your arms out over your head. Take a deep breathe. Tell yourself that you are big. You are big, not small. You always have space, you are not trapped........

I'm an ISFJ
Thanks for this!
Rapunzel
  #43  
Old Apr 15, 2009, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapunzel View Post
I don't even know what I want. I want to be taken care of and held tightly in a warm blanket so that I will be safe and warm, but I want to be free and independent and competent and able to help other people. Neither one feels safe or secure or comfortable for long.
boy this one hits it on the head for me as well. sitting with you.
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  #44  
Old Apr 20, 2009, 03:45 AM
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I'm struggling this week with just figuring out why i'm there. I just shut down. Whatever I might have to talk about hides if T doesn't seem to want to talk about that. I remembered something that happened 2 1/2 years ago, that I tried to talk to T about 2 years ago (having taken half a year to manage to say that I needed to talk about it), and she said to stay with the here and now. It was something really important, and I banished it because she seemed to, and it's still hanging there in the background, acting as a filter.

Also recognized this week that I don't show or express emotions, and nobody IRL believes that I feel how I say, because it doesn't show, and I don't know how to make it show when it needs to.

I hate wasting so much therapy time being shut down, but fear and shame are keeping anything real from coming out.
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  #45  
Old Apr 20, 2009, 11:16 AM
ErinBear ErinBear is offline
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Dear Rapunzel,

I had problems similar to what you describe. It was really, really hard for me, but in the end I came to realize the big problem was that I was angry with my counselor. That was why I was reluctant to communicate. Some people are good with being angry - I'm not. I'm not good with feeling that sort of feeling. I'm also not good with bringing it up with someone if I have a problem. I don't know if you are that way or not. You've mentioned some problems you've had with your counselor, even including a problem a couple of years ago (you tried to bring up something very important to you, and the counselor didn't seem receptive, and since then you say it's been harder to talk). I'd be upset about that. I wonder if you've talked with your counselor about any of these things, hard as it may be. It might be hard to make things substantially better until you do, if that's the kind of problem you're dealing with. Sometimes it feels like the worst thing in the world to bring up these sorts of troubles, or to talk about angry feelings if they're scary for you (as they are for me). But it can be the key to a lot of learning and growing, and it can help the working relationship go so much better. I know I was completely terrified to talk about those things with my counselor but once I finally did, it helped immensely.

Sending caring thoughts your way.

Take care,
ErinBear
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T said that I am officially crazy.
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  #46  
Old Apr 20, 2009, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Rapunzel View Post
I just shut down. Whatever I might have to talk about hides if T doesn't seem to want to talk about that.

Also recognized this week that I don't show or express emotions, and nobody IRL believes that I feel how I say, because it doesn't show, and I don't know how to make it show when it needs to.
You have to stand up for what you need. No one else will do it for you. I'm sure this is just a carry over from what happened with your parents? T doesn't know what you need but you do and you need to tell her what you need to work on.

You don't need to convince anyone about your feelings. You just need to validate them.
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Don't let your problems or the world make you feel small. Stretch your arms out over your head. Take a deep breathe. Tell yourself that you are big. You are big, not small. You always have space, you are not trapped........

I'm an ISFJ
Thanks for this!
Rapunzel
  #47  
Old Apr 20, 2009, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Rapunzel View Post
I remembered something that happened 2 1/2 years ago, that I tried to talk to T about 2 years ago (having taken half a year to manage to say that I needed to talk about it), and she said to stay with the here and now. It was something really important, and I banished it because she seemed to, and it's still hanging there in the background, acting as a filter.
ok - tell me this isn't wrong of T to do?!?! GRrrrrrrrrrrrrr I'll grrrr for you.
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T said that I am officially crazy.alt="Universal Life Church | ULC" border="0">
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Rapunzel
  #48  
Old Apr 20, 2009, 02:25 PM
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pachyderm pachyderm is offline
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Originally Posted by ErinBear View Post
in the end I came to realize the big problem was that I was angry with my counselor. That was why I was reluctant to communicate. Some people are good with being angry - I'm not. I'm not good with feeling that sort of feeling. I'm also not good with bringing it up with someone if I have a problem.
I am not either. I had to go in quite a number of times and stand up for myself and feel willing to end the whole relationship if it came to that. It did not. So far.
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Rapunzel
  #49  
Old Apr 21, 2009, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Rapunzel View Post
I'm struggling this week with just figuring out why i'm there. I just shut down. Whatever I might have to talk about hides if T doesn't seem to want to talk about that. I remembered something that happened 2 1/2 years ago, that I tried to talk to T about 2 years ago (having taken half a year to manage to say that I needed to talk about it), and she said to stay with the here and now. It was something really important, and I banished it because she seemed to, and it's still hanging there in the background, acting as a filter.

Also recognized this week that I don't show or express emotions, and nobody IRL believes that I feel how I say, because it doesn't show, and I don't know how to make it show when it needs to.

I hate wasting so much therapy time being shut down, but fear and shame are keeping anything real from coming out.
((((((Rapunzel)))))))

You worry a lot! I thought I was the one with the GAD...
Seriously though, it just seems like you present a flat affect to others. It doesn't mean you don't feel the emotions. It's no big deal to have a flatter affect than the "average bear". You don't need to put on a show for anyone you know. If they don't believe you about whatever subject than I wouldn't waste my time with those who are convinced you are somehow deceiving them.

Just start telling them crazy stuff whenever they pull their "I don't believe you" act. You know, tell them there are dogs on the moon and that signifies that you are late for an important date and have to run.
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Rapunzel
  #50  
Old Apr 21, 2009, 02:55 AM
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Simcha Simcha is offline
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Originally Posted by Rapunzel View Post
I guess she could have been checking to see if I can challenge her statement. I guess I can't. Any kind of paradoxical intent will always fail with me, and is really dangerous, because I'll take it literally and go with it.

I am familiar with Motivational Interviewing, and rolling with resistance. I hadn't thought of that, maybe because I didn't think of myself as resisting. At that particular time, I was trying to present a positive to start the session, being aware enough right then to remember that it never goes well when I start with telling about something stupid that I did, and being nervous because I almost got my car towed because I had gotten it stuck in park while I was at a red light, and I panicked and couldn't even remember that I put the car in park to try to get the back door closed properly, or how to get the car back into drive when the light turned green. I was trying to avoid starting with that story, which happened as I was on the way to that appointment.

I feel hopeless a lot, and probably do put a lot of unconscious energy into trying to convince her that I'm beyond repair. My sister, who is a psychiatrist, essentially said that I am. My sister said that I should always have someone at least monitoring me (said during the year that I was on a roller coaster of depressive episodes, and discovered SJW, and was hypomanic once or twice due to SJW overdoses, ...). And my instructors in my master's program said over and over that BPD is a life sentence, and that "the only cure for borderlines is a bullet in the head." I don't know how to be ok. I never have been.
Wow, I would have reported your instructor who made such an ignorant statement. I can't imagine a professional saying that in a teaching environment. I'm not sure what "SJW" is though...?

Your sister is not able to assess you Rapunzel. She is far to biased to have an accurate assessment of you, as all family members are. That's why we can't see family members as our doctors, and certainly not as our therapist! I'd also like to point out that what she said wasn't helpful. If it were me I'd like to find out why she said such hurtful things. Maybe jealousy, perhaps? You just never know, and it's not like she's going to tell you something like that anyway. You could also be misinterpreting statements and actions to be different than their original intent---something to consider. Sometimes I assume a lot of things that aren't always right.

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