[marjan]

I feel I'm being gender discriminated here.....all guys went to lunch together...What the heck? that's not good to exclude few women who are working here
I might not even go out with them, but I feel so hurt of their actions....I'm working in a man dominated work place....there are three times more men in engineering jobs than women....but that doesn't make us to be excluded from any events....
What is the difference between me and the other guy who got hired few months after me? he can go have lunch with my manager and I can't????
We are just three women in the entire Engineering group!
Am I getting jealous and paranoid?
I hate being this much scared of telling anything....because even if I write my opinion in the employee survey then they will figure out easily by just having three female in the survey, that's an easy job to figure out who complained?
It's been few weeks that I wanted to have lunch with my manager, because I wanted to discuss my future in the company and the tasks that he assigns me....It's hard for me to ask him, because he's a single guy and I don't want anybody thinks anything, although he's not my type at all....
Not sure how to drag him away and ask him for private conversation without everybody hearing it....I really need to talk to him about the tasks that he assigns me....I'm bored to dead these days by writing just documents....I don't gain any experience like this and I'm totally pissed....He gives all the coding job to another girl....
Not sure how to discuss this with him....

[eskielover]

Wow, another computer engineer.......

Don't know how many years you are out of college & how much experience you have. I know that my 1 1/2 years out of college was writing test documents on our software......you are right, documentation isn't the best part of the job.

I left my first job after 1 1/2 years to go into aerospace firmware design engineering in an ALL MALE work environment.....also at the same company where my husband was working. That was definitely a sink or swim position all the way around. It was a small project where I got to read the specs, design the communication interface (it was a hand-held terminal).....long before the GPS devices were around (1980+), program it & burn in onto the chips, then document it all including the test procedures. The next project I moved onto was even larger & just as sink or swim.....getting in on the ground floor of the design of the communication links.

Interesting thing though was that I had played racquettball starting at my first job.....it was the sport everyone played on their lunch hour. I got so good at it that I was playing racquettball with all the guys at lunch, we had a club & had tournaments & I would end up beating many of the guys with quite a few first places in the tournaments....lol. Somehow, they just accepted me as ONE OF THEM. Not sure if my husband working there helped with them accepting me as their equal or not, but I had to work hard to be their equal on the job......as hard as I had to play racquettball to be their equal there.

I moved to several other companies where I was also the only woman & never seemed to have the problem being accepted as one of the guys.......working as their equal & even getting into supervisor positions (never management though).

Strange thing, it wasn't until I ended up in a group with mostly all women that I couldn't stand working there as it wasn't my technical position any more & I felt like a duck out of water...hated the position & ended up breaking down....panic attacks & then the huge earthquake hit & I just couldn't push myself anymore.....it was a little burnout & a lot of anxiety because of being forced into a position I didn't like & wasn't comfortable with.....but the director in this area was more like a dictator & wouldn't let you go once he had you.

Maybe you can just pop into your managers office & ask him if you could just talk to him a little while about your interest in your future there in the company & that you are concerned about the experience you are getting. I definitely understand that you don't want to get pigeon holed into being a documentation person...programming is definitely more interesting & challenging & it's important to get a well rounded experience in a company.

As for being included with the guys, if you get a chance sometime if they are talking about going out to lunch, you might just say, gee, I hear you are going out to eat (where-ever) would you mind if I come too? When they see that you can be one of them, then they start to accept you that way also. I really don't know exactly how I was always included as one of the guys, but I grew up in a neighborhood of all guys & never had any interest in playing girl stuff, so it always felt natural to just be there with the guys, so they alway included me as part of the group.....whether racquettball or lunch or anything else....part might be because I didn't see myself as being any different.

Not sure if any of this might help, but hope you will start being accepted more equally & be able to talk to your manager more freely......a lot of times we are treated in a way because it's how we come across to them. If we are afraid that they will treat us as a woman or become interested in us as a woman rather than as an equal, there is kind of an invisible boundary that gets put up that can be sensed to keep them away. I found that I never bothered with the boundary unless someone tried to cross it......then I made it clear that my boundary was in place......yes, I was married, but even if I hadn't been, my career was a separate life than my personal life....the boundary that is good to have in place. If someone actually might be a good person to get to know better, you can always hide behind the boundary until you get to know them better & know if they might be someone you want to know better....but that way it's under YOUR CONTROL.

Just a few hints....know my experience was years ago & I was in a different circumstance, but some thoughts might work.

Good luck getting better experience also......know we have to start with paying our dues with documenting......but there does come a point where your experience needs to be your top priority if you are really wanting your career to go anywhere.

Best wishes,
Debbie

[marjan]

thanks eskielover....I have more than 8 years experience....That's not the case of me writing documents because of lake of experience....
I think I just don't like my work environment...that's all....I've been working in different companies and I would never had the same issues....I always hanging out with guys and had a good time...going for lunch together....
It's just economy is bad and none of the managers have an office....they are all working in cubical....everybody can hear everybody else what they are talking....even in the meeting rooms you can hear them....It's a big company, but we are branch of it and although it's one big floor with lots of rooms, but not that much of privacy.....
I should stop nagging and start my own business....then in few years I'm doing either better or nothing......
anyway....probably I have to just be happy to have a job in this bad market....and be quiet really!

[marjan]

You know what....I finished with the stupid document and I emailed him that I've done with it....
I'm going to study by myself....there are lots of things to learn....once he sees me not working and reading stuff, he will come to me, then I will tell him to stop just giving me boring docs.....

[Rhiannonsmoon]

Hello Marjan,

I agree with Eskie that approaching him at work in the work setting is the way to handle the issue. That way there is no innuendo that can be placed on your actions.

Please don't think I am being disrespectful here, because that is most definitely not my intention. I've noticed that your written English is broken and many words are used inappropriately. That in itself is not an issue at all, but if writing and programming would not good english be a firm requirement? Could that be a reason that your manager doesn't give you programming work? Writing docs (if I am not badly mistaken and do not understand computer jargon), would have spelling & grammar checks to bring the doc to a standardised position. I've not heard of a spellcheck in programming. Could this be a possible reason that you are not geing given that work?

You are an incredibly intelligent and focused person who takes a great deal of pride in anything you do, that is obvious by the way you write here at pc. You're open honest and have no difficulty getting across what ever message you want to convey. I think you should speak with your manager and find out the reason, that way you can correct a problem if needed, or work on a particular skill that may be needed. Whatever it is I'm sure you will solve it and move forward.

You will achieve your goals Marjan, I'm sure of it,

Rhiannon

[eskielover]

Rhiannon,
Interesting enough, programming a computer is common to all languages as it's a language of it's own depending on the language you are programming in.....not dependent at all on the language you speak.....codes do certain things & get put together in certain ways to accomplish certain functions....not forming any type of written communication language.....& actually when you get right down to in in the computer....all it is are 1's & 0's that make the computer run even when it's written in a programming language...lol.

Marjan
Think you would be better off not just telling him you are finished with the documentation & sit there reading other things until he comes to you. If you really want to show him your initiative, you need to immediately go to him & ask him what part of the programming project you can be assigned to. Managers don't like it when the emloyees don't show drive.....that's when they tend to give them the junk assignments & give those that show more drive the good parts of the project.....know that's how it worked when I was an engineer.

I know what it's like to not like where you are working also....hard to show that kind of drive & initiative when you aren't happy with your surroundings.....but if engineering positions are as slim pickings as they were almost 18 years ago....sometimes you just have to deal with it & even fake it if you really want the choice parts to work on.

Noticed you are in Los Angeles......that was where I was living when I was an engineer also.....but in the San Fernando Valley....north of the City of LA

[marjan]

@Rhiannon......OF COURSE I DO NOT DO PROOFREADING WHEN I WRITE HERE....AND I DO NOT CARE ABOUT MY GRAMMAR MISTAKES HERE AT ALL!!!!!

@eskielover....thanks so much for your advice....well...I just read it right now....but yesterday I went to my manager and I talked to him....surprisingly, I found out he was just waiting to get the upper managements approval for a new project and he told me about the new project....I told him I want to learn more and he was so happy about it....everything went great

Besides, the document that I have written is not just a simple doc...It's a functional aspects....as you know it's very important document....and very technical....otherwise, it would be just a plain expensive peace of paper as I'm highly paid here and expensive for the company for sure....

Also, special thanks to you for explaining our line of business.....I had a big laugh when I read (((Rhiannon's))) post...hehehehe......still laughing....just not sure why people have to reply to every single threads when they have little knowledge of the subject!!!!!

great day
Marjan

[marjan]

((((Rhiannonsmoon))))

Since you chose to not receive any PMs, I had to post it here....hope I don't disturb anybody else....but I think I have to tell Rhiannonsmoon.....and probably it will help others as well....

seriously, you don't have to reply to every single thread....This is your second time.....last time, you really hurt my feelings with your reply about my medical condition....of course, this time you made me laugh to your lack of knowledge.....and as I see you are not highly educated, so please don't give advice about matters that require higher education like medical conditions or engineering.....It will be really hurtful.....

I appreciate if you keep away from any posts that I make in PC.....

and again....I didn't reread my reply.....so you can edit any of my grammar or spelling mistakes....because it looks like you have lots of time....hehehehe....

[salukigirl]

marjan - I feel like there must be other things that make you think this was discrimination because I don't really feel like not asking you to lunch is plain discrimination. Was it obvious that this was BECAUSE you're a woman? Do they do other things that make you feel like it's blatant disregard for your feelings?

And I understand that written english can be messed up when you are writing in anger. I am what you would call a grammar 'nazi' and sometimes I will post things while I'm upset and look at them later and go "oh my god I actually typed that"

This is a really tough situation. Are the higher ups the same? If so then going to the person or your boss wouldn't really do anything. Is there a section in your protocol or handbook or whatever that explains the correct route to take? That way you can make sure that YOU are doing the right things that way if any other actions need to be taken then you did the right things and they can't find any loop holes to get out of it.

[marjan]

thanks salukigirl....
yes, I deeply feel that was just because of my gender I was not included....It was not like a group of guys who were working in a same project for example go for a lunch or same group of guys that are friendly together....It was just a group of them....and that's really not good....and of course if I was a guy, they would have asked me to join them too....
However, I don't think about it at all....It's not like something that they do all the time....well...couple of days later I had lunch just with one of the ladies....
In general, I don't feel a safe equal place at my work place here....I have been working in so many different companies and I have lots of experience, but something is definitely wrong in this place....and I blame the manager for that....He can be brutally rude to people....for example, easily he makes fun of one of guys who is Chinese and he doesn't speak fluently....and that Chinese guy has PHD and he's very smart....but poor guy doesn't say a word....It's so sad....One day he was rude calling one of the Indian guys jokingly bastard in the meeting....The guy got really offended and It was not a good situation....My manager is good to me though....but lord, who knows if he changes his mind....
Anyway....I don't want to bother myself too much....I think I will be just assertive and tell them what projects I want to work on....and I continue learning....I don't have to let these small things get into me....
The day that I wrote this thread, I was really angry at them....but I should let it go....
Thanks again
Marjan

[salukigirl]

Well I hope you can find someone to talk to at work, even just to vent. Your manager sounds like he needs a swift kick in the ***. Maybe we should get a group of girls together to beat him up lol. Maybe that will stop his stupid small man syndrome.

And I have been told before that I was denied a job because I'm a girl. In fact, I was denied a position which was given to a guy who had been previously fired from the company for having sex with a minor ON THE PREMISES!! While I realize now I should have sued the pants off them I was stupid and put up with it. So feel free to PM me and vent or anything. Good luck!

[marjan]

Originally Posted by salukigirl

Well I hope you can find someone to talk to at work, even just to vent. Your manager sounds like he needs a swift kick in the ***. Maybe we should get a group of girls together to beat him up lol. Maybe that will stop his stupid small man syndrome.

And I have been told before that I was denied a job because I'm a girl. In fact, I was denied a position which was given to a guy who had been previously fired from the company for having sex with a minor ON THE PREMISES!! While I realize now I should have sued the pants off them I was stupid and put up with it. So feel free to PM me and vent or anything. Good luck!

hehehe....you are so funny....ya, that would be great to kick his ***....
I talked to another coworker to just vent....not a good idea though, but I did it on Friday....she's working here for around 20 years and knows everybody....she thought me some techniques....she told me that's how people get promoted here...to be friendly with the manager and talking to him...arggg.....I have to do that too....I have to go to him and let him know what I want from my job....
anyway....right now I'm really looking forward to my vacation in end of November more than anything else....It's been more than a year that I didn't take vacation....the whole year I just took two days off...one day was for real vacation, and the other day was a stressful day to find an apartment which doesn't count as a vacation at all....then couple of sick days....that's it...the whole year....probably that's why I'm so not focused and out of order....