[daddysbutterfly]

Hello,

My fiancee and I have been together for over a year and we just had a baby together. He has never physically cheated on me, but I keep catching him texting other women that he knows and talking inappropriately with them. He asks them things like when is the last time they masturbated, have they had any fun sex lately, etc. He loves swapping stories with them. It doesn't happen every day. Only once in a while. And he never contacts them first. Its always when they text him first. But 50% of the time, hes the one who starts talking dirty. The weird thing is he does most of it while he's at work! Its not even like he's doing it so that he has stimulation to pleasure himself to. It almost seems like he has a dirty boy persona that he feels like he needs to keep up the appearance of. Most of the women he has talked to like that are old friends or ex friends with benefits. One in particular has been hard to shake. She has been told several times by me that she is not welcome in his life because if I go out of town to visit family and she finds out, she is texting him saying "if you need to get some, just tell me when and where. He has never taken her up on the offer. I know about these conversations because I have all of his passwords and access to his text message conversations.
He has promised that he won't do it again, but it keeps happening. And it seems like he just does it without thinking. Part of me feels like its no big deal because it is just talk. The other part says its not ok. This time, he swore on our daughters lives that it won't happen again.
I asked him to get counseling and he said no. He said he wants to sit down with me and come up with a plan to keep him occupied and distracted. He says he feels like some of it comes from boredom. He did say that if this doesn't work, he will then get counseling.
I am writing this to ask for tips and ideas to help him conquer this. What kind of things should i say when talking to him about this? And what things should i not say? What can we do to make him change this behavior? I know he wants to change and doesn't want to lose me. But he has been talking like this for years. He is 40. Old habits die hard. I feel like part of the plan should be for me to keep a close eye on everything he does, and for him to be aware that i am doing it. Is that too much? Any comments or suggestions? And please, no bashing him. He is a wonderful man in every way. This is our only issue.
I'm not sure if this is a helpful detail or not, but we have a kinky bedroom life that includes s&m. We are part of a fetish community. And we live the dom/sub lifestyle with him being the dom. However, in order to submit to him I have to trust him completely. And right now, some of that trust is gone. I know sometimes he swaps stories to get ideas to spice things up even more with us. But it goes above and beyond that sometimes. And that is where the main problem lies. If it is to spice up things with us, not that we need it, then I wouldn't mind. But that's not always the goal of the conversation. Anyway..... thoughts, comments, and suggestions please. Or should I just let it go because it is ONLY talk?

[hamster-bamster]

I think you should just let it go. It sounds entirely benign. You will have many more troubles if you try to change this old habit of his. Just think through all the difficulties that he and you will encounter, and assess whether it is worth it. To me, it does not seem to be worth it, but I am not you, plus, I know that there are specific dynamics in kink relationships that I am not aware of (being vanilla), so there might be some subtle power play or something else that is lurking in the background - you would know better. On the surface, it seems to be a minor, benign issue.

the only thing that worries me a lot is that "he swore on our daughters lives that it won't happen again." I find it horrifying that he would do that, and that you would accept it. His is not a habit that would be easy to break - you should both realize that (and you do - you wrote that old habits die hard, so you are in touch with reality). So, chances are, even if he tries, he might slip. And then what? Will your daughter die?.. He swears on his daughter's life so easily?..

Another thing that is horrifying is the lack of reverence towards human life, demonstrated by his swearing on his daughter's life when he is talking about something fairly stupid and minor - dirty talk with women is fairly stupid and minor, and the life of his daughter is neither stupid nor minor, so for him to put those things together... bizarre

[hamster-bamster]

Oh, and you picked up on his needing to maintain a dirty boy persona.

A dirty boy persona is an artifact of societies that make sex appear dirty, via a variety of tools, the biggest of which is prohibitionism of any kind. That creates the phenomenon of "forbidden fruit". Since you already have passwords to all of this accounts, it does not seem to the case that prohibitionism comes from you. So he is playing out something that was instilled into him via the way he grew up, and completely independently of you. Since you are not the cause of his need to have forbidden fruit, there is very little YOU can do - but you can try approaching this problem in a paradoxical way, by radically removing the factor of forbidden fruit. It means that you will actually encourage him to text sex-related messages to those women. Set a measurable goal - at least 5 texts a day. See if he can keep it up. It will be an experiment - he might get bored. I am not sure he will, because the habit is old and unrelated to you, and his need to keep up his persona is deeply rooted in his relationship to the society around him, and not you, but at least you will have exhausted your own limited remedies. And, it might be fun to try this paradoxical approach (which would I am sure beat prohibitionist tactics in effectiveness).

If you do not like that approach, just drop the case - you have clearly considered the issue and do not see yourself being harmed by his behavior. Why fight harmless habits, right? Had you found yourself feeling hurt, then sure, there might have been a case for taking measures that restrict him in order to relieve your hurt feelings. But you do not have hurt feelings - you are reacting to the idea that his behavior might be inappropriate. You do not FEEL hurt. You just KNOW that in a model relationship, the guy does not send dirty texts. So, change your idea of what a model relationship is - it is easier to change your idea than to change his habit. Plus, since there is kink/fetish element present, you should realize that you ALREADY aren't living out the idea of a model relationship - so why not accept that as well? Who cares?

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by daddysbutterfly

Hello,

1) My fiancee and I have been together for over a year and we just had a baby together. He has never physically cheated on me, but I keep catching him texting other women that he knows and talking inappropriately with them. He asks them things like when is the last time they masturbated, have they had any fun sex lately, etc. He loves swapping stories with them. It doesn't happen every day. Only once in a while. And he never contacts them first. Its always when they text him first. But 50% of the time, hes the one who starts talking dirty. The weird thing is he does most of it while he's at work! Its not even like he's doing it so that he has stimulation to pleasure himself to. It almost seems like he has a dirty boy persona that he feels like he needs to keep up the appearance of. ...

2) I know sometimes he swaps stories to get ideas to spice things up even more with us. But it goes above and beyond that sometimes. And that is where the main problem lies. If it is to spice up things with us, not that we need it, then I wouldn't mind. But that's not always the goal of the conversation. Anyway..... thoughts, comments, and suggestions please. Or should I just let it go because it is ONLY talk?

(1) I do not think that he has a sex addiction (which is a poorly defined term with very little validated research to back its use anyway). I think your own diagnosis of him - that he has a persona he needs to maintain - is valid. Good catch - you must know him pretty well to pick up on such subtleties.

(2) You are making a claim that swapping stories to spice things up even more between the two of you is a valid usecase for his texts to other women, but in the absence of a need to spice things up even further between the two of you, his texting is wrong.

Your claim makes sense. You are trying to say that his texting other women is justified if it benefits the relationship between you guys. This is one way to look at things. You are saying that only things that directly benefit your relationship are justified, but neutral and harmful things are not justified.

My claim is that neutral things are justified, too. As long as there is no harm to you or to the relationship between you too, and as long as his texting benefits him personally without harming you, it is OK. Neutral to the relationship is OK. He is doing something that he likes and you basically do not mind - it is fine.

Also... you are talking about an intervention, right? Something that needs to be done to change the status quo. Interventions are costly and need to be thought through before you embark on them. He has been doing it for years and it does not impair his functioning (he is working, parenting, etc. - by the way, if you were to go with the addictions diagnosis hypothesis, you would not be able to dx him with a sex addiction since he is clearly high functioning - addictions cause severe functioning impairment). So?.. Let the sleeping dogs lie.

My story:

When I was about thirty, and, living without medical insurance and not eligible for medical due to immigration issues, I once fainted and fell down a carpeted stairs. It hurt.

I was worried but did not have money for medical help.

I had a friend who was a licensed social worker with some medical background. She asked me if it was the first time I would faint. I explained that I first fainted and fell in a similar fashion when I was 16, and would continue to faint and fall from time to time.

She said: "Well, then this is not fatal. You will be alright."

Meaning - since I had been fainting and recovering over the course of many years, I probably could have managed without medical care.

I did not seek medical care.

After several years and one more fainting episode which happened when I did have insurance, I sought medical help and was diagnosed with syncope, and advised on how to avoid fainting and what to do when I feel that a fainting spell is coming. It did help. But had I not sought medical help and not known how to avoid fainting, I still would not have died from fainting. So... how big of a deal is it?

[Odee]

I would have not expected that response from you, Hamster.

Flirting with other girls is a BIG DEAL. Especially if it is bothering you and you asked for him to stop when you have full rights to make that demand. Maybe this is part of his "dom" thing, but even in s/m there must be respect. There are only so many mind games one can take, and him using infidelity (yes, it's cheating, it's infidelity, because it is extremely inappropriate) for his own sexual pleasure at the expense of your stability is WRRROONNNGG.

There doesn't have to be any "plan." He shouldn't have to need "distractions." Really, it's a one step plan: HE SHOULD STOP DOING IT.

He needs to delete numbers. MAKE SURE he blocks/deletes those numbers and if he uses internet social networking he must remove contact with those women on those websites as well.

So no, don't shrug it off. CUT it off.

I love being submissive in bed. My BF treats me in "cruel" ways, "sexist, disrespectful" ways. Ah, bother, I like it. HOWEVER, this does not leak into our everyday life. I am assertive in the relationship when I need to be. He is respectful and does not demand submission outside the bedroom (and even in the bedroom, it is a request that I grant.) You can have the sexual enjoyment of sub/dom but it can mark a terrible relationship (IMHO, people will object) is submission and dominance characterizes the entire relationship.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Odee

I would have not expected that response from you, Hamster.

You are making a lot of assumptions that seem to make sense to you but in reality are completely arbitrary.

Say, for me, I would not mind what OP's fiancee is doing, nor does she seem to mind it - I do not know why you decided that it is bothering the OP - she described what the guy is doing with a normal curiosity of a scientist; she does not appear bothered.

But I would never EVER accept cruelty and sexism in bed the way you do. It is just completely beyond me.

See how it is arbitrary? You have some sort of tastes and preferences that seem to make sense to you, but they might not make sense to others.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Odee

1) yes, it's cheating, it's infidelity, because it is extremely inappropriate for his own sexual pleasure

2) You can have the sexual enjoyment of sub/dom but it can mark a terrible relationship (IMHO, people will object) is submission and dominance characterizes the entire relationship.

1) He is not deriving sexual pleasure. OP specified that he is doing it at work, and not is not being stimulated. In a direct sense, he is not deriving sexual pleasure. In an indirect sense...if we start talking about indirect ways to derive sexual pleasure, we will never stop.

Also, you do not get to decide what is infidelity. A marriage is a private contract and the parties to it decide what constitutes a violation of such contract in conversation with one another. OP apparently draws the line at physical contact (read her first sentence). But at any rate, it is something to discuss within the relationship and not outside of it.

2) I am surprised you would write that, because even though I am not into BDSM at all (emphatically so), as a sideline observer I have been able to learn that there are all kinds of BDSM relationship spanning the whole range from what you describe about your own relationship to that news report from Britain a few years back - a young woman was being walked on a leash by her dominant boyfriend. She was not allowed on a public bus, spurring the controversy. So again (I am saying that as an observer) - relationships are private contracts and people decide between each other what they should do - whether they should go out with the girl on a leash, or, whether they should go out presenting outwardly as a regular couple, but in bed she would enjoy his cruelty. It is just a contractual arrangement - that is all. If there are no victims, everything is OK (in theory, at least - if I were to actually SEE a young woman being walked on a leash, I would probably not be able to keep my cool and say that everybody gets to decide for themselves).