[Talauria7783]

So . . . I have a little bit of a dilemma. I have two older brothers, one of which is narcissistic and causes quite a bit of family drama. I think I've semi got a handle on dealing with him and my emotions surrounding him but he does play a part in any suggestions regarding my father.

My father is a highly conservative (and I mean, take your worst stereo-types of the tea party (true or not) and that's my father), racist, conspiracy theorist who has nothing but distrust for his government and people in general. He's a compulsive liar and has no problem insulting his children or grandchildren, (for example, "you need to stop eating, you're too fat).

But here's the problem . . . he's also quite, ummmm, unintelligent, to put it nicely. I don't say that to be mean or put him down, it's just the truth. He has a hard time even grasping the simplest of concepts and I, being moderate to slightly left leaning with two BA degrees, two published books, and working on my MSc, don't even like to go and see him (my parents have been divorced for a while) because not only can I not stand his opinions of the world around him (i.e. racism, etc.) but there is absolutely nothing I can talk to him about. And when he brings things up, I have to repeat them over and over again because he doesn't get it the first time. I try and be patient but I always just end up feeling sorry for him. I always end up frustrated because he wants to know what's going on in my life but he doesn't understand what I tell him no matter how simple I try and put it.

So recently, he went to visit my brother (the narcissistic one) simply because my mom and step-dad had gone up. Now, they are having a really rough time with things, not only because of the way my brother is but financially as well. So my dad goes up, and he puts $20 towards pizza (even though my brother told him he had no money to pay the rest...and as much as my dad likes to tell us otherwise he does just fine financially and could have paid the whole meal), then he insults my 10 yr old nephew by telling him he's too fat and he should stop eating (now he's chubby for his age but he's nowhere near fat, to his credit though, my nephew did tell him off for that, lol....also, this is something my dad has told me a lot in my life as well....oh, and he's also obese), THEN for breakfast the next morning he tells them no he doesn't want to go to the store to buy food for everyone but instead wants to take my brother and his daughter (ONLY) out to breakfast.....WHO DOES THAT!? My brother and his family were very hurt and asked my dad to leave after just being there for one day.

Now, like I said before, I try not to see my dad all that much because I know he's just a really toxic person to be around (as is his whole family). But he is my dad, and I love him, and.....I always feel sorry for him. That's my dilemma.

I know I should be like the rest of my family (should I?) and just have nothing to do with him. My oldest brother still sticks around him because he's just like my father in a lot of ways. But my other brother (the narcissistic one) has long since wanted nothing to do with him. My dad was very hard on him growing up (although not as much as my brother would have people think)...he was always very physical with my brothers under the guise of, "oh we're just playing" or "it's making them tougher". I was always slightly uncomfortable around him. He never did anything to me but for some reason I was still always uncomfortable. He had one accusation in the past, back when he first married my mom and my oldest brother was a baby that he sexually abused a cousin of his but there was never any proof. He's always made my brother feel uneasy when he's around my niece as well.

All that being said, sorry I know it was a lot!, I always end up feeling bad for him. Because, to be completely honest, I truly TRULY believe that he's not smart enough to know that anything he does is wrong. He just messaged me about the trip to my brother's house and his response was, "I went up to your brother's this weekend. I don't think it went well. I only stayed one day because of the weather but that wasn't my intention." He's not completely lying about the weather, they did have snow coming and a storm warning but he was asked to leave (from what I was told). And they he said something about how he couldn't believe how my brother acts nowadays (I guess meaning how much of a douche he can be....hello, narcissism!)

Anyway, I'm tired of feeling so sorry for him. And I'm tired of hurting for him. It would be so much easier if I knew that he was intelligent enough to know what he was doing and did it anyway, then I could be really angry, and I could talk myself into getting him out of my life for good. But instead, I know he's not....I know he has NO IDEA that he hurts us and what he does is wrong....and he's always so baffled when things don't go right or like in the situation with my brother people end up hurt, cause he just has NO IDEA. I've tried explaining things in the past but it just doesn't work. So, instead of being angry, I always just feel so bad for him. And I think about him, and how old he's getting, and the health problems he has and how incredibly lonely he is and I can't ever bring myself to feel anything but sad for him. And I don't know how to deal with that.

Any suggestions!?

[Talauria7783]

No one?

[Talauria7783]

Anyone?

[Frankbtl]

Hi Talauria, it sounds like you're a very caring person. Kudos!!!!!
But it might need to be about putting yourself first for a change as you're so conflicted about the relationship. I get the feeling you're more in the habit of caring/thinking about others than yourself .
If he is "unintelligent" then yes maybe he can't help certain things, maybe the chances of him changing some of his behaviours is quite limited..............but that doesn't need to mean that you have a duty to put yourself in the relationship to the extent that it's damaging to/hurting you. If you need more distance from him (physically or/and emotionally) then that really isn't unreasonable at all, and no-one (not even you!!!) should judge you badly for that, in fact it might even help the relationship if you want one.
And you know if he does say something hurtful to you, then you're already streets ahead on that one..........you know that it's not "personal"/intended to be hurtful/has the same meaning as "someone else" might give it if they were to say that, so maybe you could try to let some of that hurt go?? Of course, tell him if something he says/does is offensive, but in yourself you know his understanding is limited when he's saying/doing those things.
And when he's slipping into some of his "stereo-types" let him know if those views are offensive (racism- very offensive!!)...........just wondering if people have been letting him "ramble" on with them/letting him think it's OK, because "that's just him"/"he can't help it"/"he doesn't know any better" at the time/s.........not you, but people............
Non-offensive controversial opinions.............well that's kind of like weighing up whether you can accept differences in those specific opinions or not..........agreeing to disagree.........
So about setting some boundaries, hey??? How much you want to have to do with him, what you'll accept from him, where you're going to insist............
And while you're feeling sad for him..............I know his difficulties are really standing out for you.........age, loneliness, health............because you're so caring, is that the complete picture?? Are there things not to feel sad for him about, things that aren't going so bad for him?? Perhaps there are more "better" things going for him, that are slipping into the background.........and perhaps when he's talking to you it's a lot more of the difficult parts he's bringing up.
And if you feel you want/need a relationship with him, then maybe have a think about how that might work..........e.g. any simple/casual/enjoyable activities you can do together where a bit more of "the best of him" might show, any levels you can "meet on"..........??? Remember it's you calling the shots on what might work a bit better now, it's not you trying to fit in with the situation as it is. You'll probably have to make some allowances but.............
Still it is entirely up to you, please don't feel guilty if you need to walk away. Sometimes you (anyone!!!) can only do/give so much, you'll have clearly tried, and (again!!) you need to put/care for yourself first at times. He is not your responsibility...........
And if you want to talk more..............

Alison

[hvert]

Intelligence has no bearing on whether or not someone is nice. A person does not have to be smart to be nice.

How do you know that he has no idea that he is hurtful? If he says something rude, like 'you are fat, stop eating,' does anyone call him on it? Does he apologize? It seems like a really rare person who would not understand that when he does X and people say it bothers them, he needs to stop doing X.

If you want to hang around with him, that's fine. If you don't, that's fine, too. You are free to make a choice that is different from the choice the rest of your family makes. You can change your mind later on, too.

You are in a very awkward position. I have had similar feelings about my own father and go through periods of talking to him and other periods of cutting him off. It's really hard to know what the best thing to do is. Like you, I often find that I am motivated by feelings of sadness for his poor health (which in my father's case is caused by extremely poor decisions).

Any choice you make in this is going to have a downside. I would go with what works for you in the moment, as much as you can.

[JadeAmethyst]

This is really your choice, regardless of other family members. I would say, to keep your expectations realistic for how you will move forward if and when you do.

Jade

My folks are pretty similar....passive aggressive, conservative, think everyone has an agenda......also they make their own truths (they do believe them).

They are not my favorite people and they have made TONS of mistakes. But they are my parents. And I have some respect for them....they had it tough and made the most of things in their lives...so it's respect for what they have done and not who they have become.

I think that whatever you feel is just fine. You are human...

Perhaps you could simply put him in a different place in your heart, as I have done? I lose my patience a lot, but I try to be tolerant. Emphasis on "try". I am usually not successful. But I will say that because my expectations are much lower for them, it's easier than it used to be.

[Talauria7783]

Originally Posted by hvert

Intelligence has no bearing on whether or not someone is nice. A person does not have to be smart to be nice.

How do you know that he has no idea that he is hurtful? If he says something rude, like 'you are fat, stop eating,' does anyone call him on it? Does he apologize? It seems like a really rare person who would not understand that when he does X and people say it bothers them, he needs to stop doing X.

If you want to hang around with him, that's fine. If you don't, that's fine, too. You are free to make a choice that is different from the choice the rest of your family makes. You can change your mind later on, too.

You are in a very awkward position. I have had similar feelings about my own father and go through periods of talking to him and other periods of cutting him off. It's really hard to know what the best thing to do is. Like you, I often find that I am motivated by feelings of sadness for his poor health (which in my father's case is caused by extremely poor decisions).

Any choice you make in this is going to have a downside. I would go with what works for you in the moment, as much as you can.

Well....believe it or not....no, I don't think he knows what he's doing. I understand what you're saying but people DO call him on it and when they do he just doesn't understand what he did wrong and gets hurt because of it. His whole family is just like him, too....conservative, racist, etc.

Like in the past when he's said stuff to me about my weight and I call him out for it he doesn't understand why I'm upset and his response is usually somewhere along the lines of, "I'm just trying to help, I love you...."

Or when he says racist stuff and I tell him to stop I don't want to hear it he gets this really hurt look on his face and then asks me why he can't have his own opinion. He doesn't understand that he can have his own opinion but I don't have to subject myself to hearing it too.

I've tried explaining other things to him in the past and he just doesn't get it.

I only have minimal contact with him, I couldn't handle anymore than that and right now I even live in the UK and I can't call him so I have next to NO contact....but it breaks my heart when he hurts other family members and then they say bad stuff. I mean THAT I understand, and that's a normal way to react and I don't fault them for it. I just end up feeling bad for my dad when they say that stuff about him because it's like he's a child who doesn't know any better.....truly. It should be better when I get back to the states and I live in another state. Right now (well my current home...not where I'm studying in the UK) he's an hour away so I feel obligated to see him occasionally, but I'll have an excuse when I'm states away. I know that sounds bad. I would just be better if I knew he had some friends, lol

[Talauria7783]

Originally Posted by sophiesmom

My folks are pretty similar....passive aggressive, conservative, think everyone has an agenda......also they make their own truths (they do believe them).

They are not my favorite people and they have made TONS of mistakes. But they are my parents. And I have some respect for them....they had it tough and made the most of things in their lives...so it's respect for what they have done and not who they have become.

I think that whatever you feel is just fine. You are human...

Perhaps you could simply put him in a different place in your heart, as I have done? I lose my patience a lot, but I try to be tolerant. Emphasis on "try". I am usually not successful. But I will say that because my expectations are much lower for them, it's easier than it used to be.

Yeah, I lowered my expectations a long time ago but maybe I should push them lower? lol - good to know (sort of) that I'm not the only one in this boat. Luckily my mom is nothing like my dad (hence, they are divorced, lol). At least I have one parent to rely on.

[Talauria7783]

Originally Posted by JadeAmethyst

This is really your choice, regardless of other family members. I would say, to keep your expectations realistic for how you will move forward if and when you do.

Jade

Yeah I know, but it's really hard for me to put myself apart from my family...which is weird cause they have no problem doing it in regard to me. Family is just a huge deal for me, even if it isn't for them and when they hurt I hurt and it's hard for me to separate from that.

[Talauria7783]

Originally Posted by Frankbtl

Hi Talauria, it sounds like you're a very caring person. Kudos!!!!!
But it might need to be about putting yourself first for a change as you're so conflicted about the relationship. I get the feeling you're more in the habit of caring/thinking about others than yourself .
If he is "unintelligent" then yes maybe he can't help certain things, maybe the chances of him changing some of his behaviours is quite limited..............but that doesn't need to mean that you have a duty to put yourself in the relationship to the extent that it's damaging to/hurting you. If you need more distance from him (physically or/and emotionally) then that really isn't unreasonable at all, and no-one (not even you!!!) should judge you badly for that, in fact it might even help the relationship if you want one.
And you know if he does say something hurtful to you, then you're already streets ahead on that one..........you know that it's not "personal"/intended to be hurtful/has the same meaning as "someone else" might give it if they were to say that, so maybe you could try to let some of that hurt go?? Of course, tell him if something he says/does is offensive, but in yourself you know his understanding is limited when he's saying/doing those things.
And when he's slipping into some of his "stereo-types" let him know if those views are offensive (racism- very offensive!!)...........just wondering if people have been letting him "ramble" on with them/letting him think it's OK, because "that's just him"/"he can't help it"/"he doesn't know any better" at the time/s.........not you, but people............
Non-offensive controversial opinions.............well that's kind of like weighing up whether you can accept differences in those specific opinions or not..........agreeing to disagree.........
So about setting some boundaries, hey??? How much you want to have to do with him, what you'll accept from him, where you're going to insist............
And while you're feeling sad for him..............I know his difficulties are really standing out for you.........age, loneliness, health............because you're so caring, is that the complete picture?? Are there things not to feel sad for him about, things that aren't going so bad for him?? Perhaps there are more "better" things going for him, that are slipping into the background.........and perhaps when he's talking to you it's a lot more of the difficult parts he's bringing up.
And if you feel you want/need a relationship with him, then maybe have a think about how that might work..........e.g. any simple/casual/enjoyable activities you can do together where a bit more of "the best of him" might show, any levels you can "meet on"..........??? Remember it's you calling the shots on what might work a bit better now, it's not you trying to fit in with the situation as it is. You'll probably have to make some allowances but.............
Still it is entirely up to you, please don't feel guilty if you need to walk away. Sometimes you (anyone!!!) can only do/give so much, you'll have clearly tried, and (again!!) you need to put/care for yourself first at times. He is not your responsibility...........
And if you want to talk more..............

Alison

Well his family, who he spends most of his time with are the same way so yes, THEY, let him ramble on because they believe the same things. The rest of us, no, we don't....but when we tell him to stop he doesn't understand why. Because, after all, "it's the truth".

I just hate that I feel so much! lol - I mean, my sister-in-law told me just recently that he called them several times in a row and my brother refused to answer. That kills me. Not that I feel that THEY are obligated to answer, they are hurt and mad....but I know he was calling because he felt bad and didn't understand and it was probably just made worse when they wouldn't talk to him....it's THAT part that breaks my heart. He's like a little child.

And sometimes I just wish I could be like the rest of them and just completely ignore him....but I can't....I could never. Distance myself, yes....but cut him out completely when he has nobody....never. ARGH!!!