[VirginiaMorning6045]

My question is about reciprocity in friendships. I apologize in advance this may be long in order to explain the situation.

Last year, a newer friend (63 yo) "Karen" invited me to a summer book club with one of her friends. She said they both agreed to add one person to the group; so there were four in total. When discussing where we could hold these meetings, three of us suggested Panera or some place similar that was central to all of us. Karen, was adamant she didn't want to hold a book club in a public place. I offered my home which is central. I would put on a pot of coffee and put out cookies or something along those lines. No problem, right?

Second meeting, Karen took me to the side and suggested I "perhaps offer something a little less fattening, since everyone is watching their weight." Hmm, they are? I was a little taken aback by this, and replied, "Oh ok, well I'll leave it to you to bring something you think the others would like." She looked surprised, and didn't say anything more. Slowly I'm seeing how pushy Karen is, and unfortunately feel like I need to have my guard up.

Half way though the summer, Karen pops up with, "We should do something special like a retreat for our last chapter. What do you all think?" Myself and the other two women agreed it would be fun. Then, Karen smiles, turns to me and said, "We could use your weekend lake house!" WHAT? Wait a second! Now, I'm cornered. I caved and agreed.

A week before our "retreat" Karen called see what I was serving for the weekend. Seeing an opening so I'm not a bigger doormat, I told her I would do a breakfast casserole and fresh fruit salad for breakfast, if they could coordinate lunch and dinner. I won't go into detail about the meals except to say Karen forgot to bring the salmon for dinner, but she looked in my freezer and found shrimp we could use. We're 30 minutes from the closest grocery store, that is also part bait shop.

Since that time, neither Karen, her friend, or the friend's friend who were part of the summer book club, have suggested we meet for lunch or even invite me over for coffee since then. Yet yesterday, Karen suggested we get together at the lake house for an autumn retreat as "we've all been so busy and haven't been able to get together since last summer." Thankfully, my phone rang right after I said, "I'm sorry, that wouldn't work for me. Maybe we can grab a coffee at Starbucks." She looked absolutely stunned. An hour later, she approached me again, this time saying, we should all get together again and discuss what book we want to read next summer. Fool me once...

Maybe things have changed, but I've always believed in reciprocity is a very basic courtesy and a vital part of friendships. If someone hosts you a few times, it's only fair that you reciprocate, unless you are ok with looking like and acting like a mooch. And you NEVER invite yourself to someone's home.

I see Karen weekly at a place we volunteer at, so it's a little difficult to avoid her. She's a former sales rep, so she's naturally aggressive and doesn't accept the word no easily. I can be forceful and extremely rude if need be, but I would rather not.

Suggestions on how to avoid future pushy episodes, and do you think the days of reciprocity over in society?

Thank you in advance for your advice.

[Gaj1983]

Hi VirginiaMorning

It sounds like you're handling the pushiness of Karen well. You've been gracious and kind, and also put up boundaries, so that she can't invite herself, try as she might!

Reciprocity is most definitely a vital part of any relationship. I don't think the days of that are over. Some people have absolutely no manners, and were raised to believe, or somehow came to believe that everyone owes them something.

Whenever I'm being social, I always come across genuine kind people, as well as selfish jerks. I've learned to be very protective and private of my self and resources (such as my home), and will only offer friendship and open my home to people who I have met in a neutral setting (such as a panera, or other social setting), and gotten to know them first. That way, if they turn out to be selfish, the only thing I've "wasted" is my time, and not my energy or feelings.

Hope that makes sense! You sound like a lovely person, and I'm sorry you're having to go through this!

[LucyG]

I'm sorry you're going through this.

One thing I've learned over the years and I think most people will agree is that pushy demanding people almost can't be offended. They steamroll over you and you're hurt, but they really don't get offended when you stand up to them. In fact, it improves the relationship because they discover you aren't going to be their lapdog.

[TishaBuv]

You're absolutely right and handled the whole thing great. She is pushy and nervy.

It's too bad you couldn't just enjoy a little book club without the stress of feeling used.

I've had to deal with my share of Karens myself. And when you call them on being rude, they do act offended, and they rally others against you. So you have to deal with them in a passive/aggressive way or just get away from them.

For example, you'd make up some fake excuse for not holding the next meeting at your house, forcing someone else to step up or the book club is done.

I had a Karen in my life once. Her name is Cindy. Cindy would constantly invite my husband and I over so my husband could do work for her in her house. She then decided he would install all new windows in her second story home when he was recovering from a major knee issue and could never climb a ladder. I finally had enough and told her it's flat out not going to happen....she was shocked because after all she offered to buy him a pizza for doing it. Some people just have no clue. I try not to expect much from people because when I do, I'm often disappointed.

I LOVE how you handled yourself! Very reasonable and mature responses.

[VirginiaMorning6045]

Originally Posted by Gaj1983

Hi VirginiaMorning

It sounds like you're handling the pushiness of Karen well. You've been gracious and kind, and also put up boundaries, so that she can't invite herself, try as she might!

Reciprocity is most definitely a vital part of any relationship. I don't think the days of that are over. Some people have absolutely no manners, and were raised to believe, or somehow came to believe that everyone owes them something.

Whenever I'm being social, I always come across genuine kind people, as well as selfish jerks. I've learned to be very protective and private of my self and resources (such as my home), and will only offer friendship and open my home to people who I have met in a neutral setting (such as a panera, or other social setting), and gotten to know them first. That way, if they turn out to be selfish, the only thing I've "wasted" is my time, and not my energy or feelings.

Hope that makes sense! You sound like a lovely person, and I'm sorry you're having to go through this!

Thank you for sharing your experiences and kind comments, Gaj. I need to pace myself with people, so the red flags show up, before allowing someone over the threshold of my home and my life. As much as I enjoy opening my home to people, it's best to pull back a bit and wait for them to offer hospitality first, I think.

Thank you again!

[VirginiaMorning6045]

Originally Posted by LucyG

I'm sorry you're going through this.

One thing I've learned over the years and I think most people will agree is that pushy demanding people almost can't be offended. They steamroll over you and you're hurt, but they really don't get offended when you stand up to them. In fact, it improves the relationship because they discover you aren't going to be their lapdog.

Lucy, my husband said basically the same thing. Karen is a former pharmaceutical saleswoman, which required her to be aggressive, have a thick skin and not take no for an answer. She explained about learning in sales training there are basically four personality types; determine the personality type and you will know how to convince them of what they need to believe, so you are able to make the sale.

[VirginiaMorning6045]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

You're absolutely right and handled the whole thing great. She is pushy and nervy.

It's too bad you couldn't just enjoy a little book club without the stress of feeling used.

I've had to deal with my share of Karens myself. And when you call them on being rude, they do act offended, and they rally others against you. So you have to deal with them in a passive/aggressive way or just get away from them.

For example, you'd make up some fake excuse for not holding the next meeting at your house, forcing someone else to step up or the book club is done.

I know exactly what you mean by rallying others against you; it's happened to me once before, which is why I feel a bit like my back it up against the wall. While I hate the idea of story telling to get out of further social encounters with her, it's what I may have to do.

Who would have thought hosting a simple book club would have caused these types of problems.

[VirginiaMorning6045]

Originally Posted by ElsaMars

I had a Karen in my life once. Her name is Cindy. Cindy would constantly invite my husband and I over so my husband could do work for her in her house. She then decided he would install all new windows in her second story home when he was recovering from a major knee issue and could never climb a ladder. I finally had enough and told her it's flat out not going to happen....she was shocked because after all she offered to buy him a pizza for doing it. Some people just have no clue. I try not to expect much from people because when I do, I'm often disappointed.

I LOVE how you handled yourself! Very reasonable and mature responses.

Thank you for your affirmation of how I have handled things so far.

I so sorry your husband's kindness was taken advantage of. I saw the same thing happen with an uncle was an electrician. People didn't think twice of calling him to replace a ceiling fan, install outdoor lights, etc. They just assumed because they knew him, he should drop everything on HIS day off, and come and do work for them, for free. Of course, my uncle would, because he felt he could help and it was his Christian duty to help someone "in need".

I'm beginning to be gracious, thoughtful people are the rarity and not how the normal human is wired.

[VirginiaMorning6045]

Originally Posted by VirginiaMorning6045

Thank you for your affirmation of how I have handled things so far.

I'm so sorry your husband's kindness was taken advantage of. I saw the same thing happen with an uncle who was an electrician. People didn't think twice of calling him to replace a ceiling fan, install outdoor lights, etc. They just assumed because they knew him, he should drop everything on HIS day off, and come and do work for them, for free. Of course, my uncle would, because he felt he could help and it was his Christian duty to help someone "in need".

I'm beginning to think be gracious, thoughtful people are the rarity and not how the normal human is wired.

Edit for grammar

[Bill3]

Suggestions on how to avoid future pushy episodes

You can't control what others do, and I don't think you should go out of your was to avoid pushy episodes. I think you should take them as opportunities to practice and develop your "no" skills.

"I can't."
"That won't work for me."
"No thanks."
"I'm not interested in that."
"That's not for me." [Why not?] "It just isn't."
"I have to get off the phone now. Thanks for calling."
"I have other plans."

Here are more possibilities!

99 Ways to say no:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20130...se-det-nav_art

Pinterest really went to town on saying no!

https://www.pinterest.com/explore/ways-to-say-no/

[s4ndm4n2006]

Originally Posted by VirginiaMorning6045

and do you think the days of reciprocity over in society?

First, why would you jump to this conclusion simply for having connected with one bad apple in a gigantic bunch? I mean society is far from a single experience with people and you only dealt with one apparent clique here so I would say no. just find better people to hang out with. plenty of good, people out there along with those that aren't the best socializers.

Along with some of the others, I think you handled it well. It is, quite honestly possible to deal with her even having to see her with cordiality but yet remain closed off to any possible interactions beyond the volunteering. Ok so I'm one that draws a very clear line between work and play myself so it's easy for me, and I realize it's not so simple for others, but it is, possible. Be professionally courteous, but focus on what you're there for. Perhaps in some cases socializing with work acquaintances works fine but here I think the case has been made where it's not appropriate anymore. You may not have to be rude, just firm. Let your no be no and keep it at that. people like her will try to draw you into a conversation and make you bend, but you know this. so keep it simple, to the point and move on from there.

[VirginiaMorning6045]

[QUOTE=Bill3;5340289]You can't control what others do, and I don't think you should go out of your was to avoid pushy episodes. I think you should take them as opportunities to practice and develop your "no" skills.

"I can't."
"That won't work for me."
"No thanks."
"I'm not interested in that."
"That's not for me." [Why not?] "It just isn't."
"I have to get off the phone now. Thanks for calling."
"I have other plans."

Here are more possibilities!

99 Ways to say no:


Pinterest really went to town on saying no!
QUOTE]
Good post, funny too! Someone said once, learn to say no without explanation is the most powerful thing you can do. Maybe I need to practice "just say no" more.

[VirginiaMorning6045]

Originally Posted by s4ndm4n2006

First, why would you jump to this conclusion simply for having connected with one bad apple in a gigantic bunch? I mean society is far from a single experience with people and you only dealt with one apparent clique here so I would say no. just find better people to hang out with. plenty of good, people out there along with those that aren't the best socializers.

Along with some of the others, I think you handled it well. It is, quite honestly possible to deal with her even having to see her with cordiality but yet remain closed off to any possible interactions beyond the volunteering. Ok so I'm one that draws a very clear line between work and play myself so it's easy for me, and I realize it's not so simple for others, but it is, possible. Be professionally courteous, but focus on what you're there for. Perhaps in some cases socializing with work acquaintances works fine but here I think the case has been made where it's not appropriate anymore. You may not have to be rude, just firm. Let your no be no and keep it at that. people like her will try to draw you into a conversation and make you bend, but you know this. so keep it simple, to the point and move on from there.

I'm cognizant the behavior of society isn't defined by one experience, but this is a more and more common thread in society. Guests give a couple wedding gifts, and no acknowledgement in the form of thank you note is sent. People who show up at a pot luck empty handed, but will load up their plate, and in some cases ask to take home some leftover. These aren't just people I've encountered, or common practices based on a region or generation. Simple courtesies that were once extended, are no longer recognized or considered necessary by a growing segment of America society (I haven't found this to be the case in western European countries, yet).

Yesterday, I actually had another encounter with this woman, about the same topic. She cornered me and said, "Well?" My reply was, "Yes?" She added, "So, when are we doing the autumn retreat at your lake house." I smiled and told her, "Never. The house is closed for the season and most weekends are already filled for next year." smiled and walked away. Based on the cold shoulder I receive the rest of the day, she wasn't too happy, but keeping her happy, is not my job. I'm sure she will be back to try again, perhaps next year, and that's ok, I actually liked saying no and walking away.

[Bill3]

Well done VirginiaMorning6045!