discussion point about what really matters for women in choosing partners

Hypergamy - it is a woman's core nature to want to partner up/marry a man who has more earning potential and/or potential to be the bread winner. This is hard coded within women because women were designed to look to the man to protect and provide for them.

Is this not still the case today and do we see this reflected in reality?

I am not seeing it as much nowadays as many women earn more or same as men. Of course there are exceptions and some women still are dependent on men.

I personally never concerned myself with looking for providers as I have always been self supporting and independent. I encourage women to not become dependent on men as it’s a dangerous way to live (many women stay in bad marriages because they can’t afford to be on their own, bad place to be)

Saying that, I’d not settle for a man who makes significantly less than me either because I am not interested in supporting anyone and I don’t want to alter my life style (living with someone who makes much less would lower my ability to have and do things I am accustomed to).

Of course if something happened to my husband and he becomes incapacitated, I’d support him as he is my husband but I wouldn’t deliberately look for a man to support.

I don't think people are consciously aware of what they are actually attracted to. Asking them is pointless. The answer will just be a bunch of rationalizations about themselves.

No. I cannot even imagine living like that. I am 41 and to this day, I have never let anyone pay for anything, not even one meal.
I have been working since I was 16 and living alone since I was 18. I sure do not want a man to be the breadwinner. Besides, to be honest, at times I don’t think I want someone at all. Often times, being single and independent rocks.

38 percent of American wives earn more than their husbands.

https://www.npr.org/2015/02/08/38469...-than-husbands

Hmmm, seems to be treading close to 'incel' thinking. I am not sure the real motivation for such a question. Such a viewpoint is terribly outdated.

As Bill3 above me pointed out, there are a great many women who earn more than their husbands. Many more I will say equally contribute to the household - as is the expectation in my own relationship. There are however still backwards parts of the world where women take a back seat to their partners and I am guessing such a way of thinking would be more common. If you are finding this claim to be representative of your own experience maybe you are looking in the wrong places.

I was the last housewife in America.

Yes, I married a man who would support me, and was a stay at home mom of three. I LOVED that situation. I LOVED every minute of being with my kids and raising them. They are good young men, so I think we did a good job.

However, my marriage emotionally destroyed me, but that was because of both of our personalities. The structure of the traditional role we lived was not the problem in itself.

It's funny you bring this up because I'm dealing with this right now. I have a high-paying salary. It would be somewhat difficult to only date men who make the same or more than me. But I find what matters to me is not the man's salary, but that he is a hard worker and passionate about what he's doing. Someone asked me yesterday if it would bother me if my partner were a bee keeper, and I said no, as long as he were truly passionate and dedicated to being a bee keeper.

I am very career oriented, and I can't imagine being with someone who just does a job because it's a (I mean forever, not temporarily or in transition). I feel like that would be miserable. I have seen friends and family who are in marriages with partners who just have jobs and those partners are miserable and they bring that misery into their relationship. They are always exhausted, not energized, by their work. I work hard, often 10-12 hours a day, but I find my work invigorating. Sometimes it wears me out, but most often I am excited and energized by it. I know I am lucky in that, but I will also say I'm not in my chosen profession, so it's not like this was my dream job to start out.

So salary doesn't matter to me, but passion and ambition and motivation do. I can't stand a "slacker" or someone who doesn't care about doing a good job, whatever the job.

Seesaw

I find this sexist. To somehow frame it as science that women need to marry up because they are designed to do so... where are you getting this?

For starters, to state that it is a woman's core nature to "marry up" is using this term rather loosely. Hypergamy is a social science, meaning it is rooted in social constructs, social constructs that are primarily patriarchal. Historically, it is for sheer survival that women had to better their circumstances. Marriage was means. Women were not designed to depend on men, they had to depend on men based on social constructs.

Today women have more choices. Woman can choose to find a husband who makes more money, just like husbands can find a wife who makes more money as well. And sometimes choices are not so clear cut, especially for individuals with MI who might be unable to work (whether this is permanent or temporary) and have no family or means to support themselves.

That said, women still make less than men in many industries, and if a couple wants to start a family, then we have to remember that while maternity leave is effective, it also leaves women out of work with less of an opportunity to hone or keep their skills fresh.

And, at the end of the day, none of this means the relationship would be fulfilling on an emotionally satisfying level.

Pretty well said. I would imagine most women, like myself, would agree with this.

It’s just how it still is though - Americans See Men as Providers

https://www.google.com/amp/www.pewre...-grow/%3famp=1

It's a societal view though, not hard-coded as the OP suggested. Also, there is an issue of gender pay inequality that is a factor here. In most fields, women still do not receive equal pay, so how can they make up half or more than the income in a relationship in more instances (obviously in the 38% they do, but not more than that). I don't think we'll see that number rise substantially until pay inequality is further addressed.

It is still a norm for some areas... Not so prevalent in cities, but rural areas come to mind. I had an ex where her whole aspiration was to raise the children from home, no pursuit of career or anything.... - my family where my mother wore the blue jeans is pretty atypical.

I also think its more than pay gap as well... Such as chosen career, etc. I know for a fact women are underepresented in some lucrative careers like engineering. Nursing for example has $0.10 pay gap, and also I think New York has the lowest pay gap of all the states.

I think the social trend that study suggests won't change until women start taking on more male populated fields.

^^ that being said, women who are primary breadwinners are out there. You never know who you'll find now days.

I was actually perceived by my family, friends, etc... as being quite successful in attaining my traditional role, tbh. Nobody looked down on me for not pursuing a career and for choosing to be a stay at home wife and mother. I had plenty to do to fill my days. I even did, and still do, volunteer work.

Luckily hy h and I had the same values. He also wanted the devoted wife and mother of his kids, and he earned enough to support us. I ended up doing everything for our family while he just focused on his job.

I’m just saying— it is no easy feat in this day and age to find a mate who can and will support you while you raise the children, and I am proud of myself for doing that. I believe the kids benefitted. It was a really nice structure for a family.

I didn’t do that because I had no other options or aspirations. I’m very intelligent and could have done anything. But I was convinced by my mother to do this, and I believed it was what I wanted. Everyone was so supportive of it, too. Too bad the marriage failed though.

Yes, but in my field, where women are over represented, they still make a lot less than men. 80 cents to the dollar. That's a 20% difference. And men dominate the field in the higher positions. No, it's not all pay gap, but pay gap is a big player in this discussion.

I still find this really sexist. I keep wondering about the motivation behind the OP's thought process here. I can't help but assume this is being used as an excuse for what might be frustration in having difficulty with women. Hence, my question with regards to the incel community as this is a common argument used to justify unfounded anger. Perhaps the OP isn't or just hasn't yet discovered the community yet. Regardless, this statement is far off from what I think is actually happening out there. I encourage the original poster to do a self-evalutation when it comes to their interactions with women. If in fact they are having difficulty I suggest the problem isn't that the women he seeks are interested only in sugar-daddy's. Perhaps the OP ought also then evaluate those attributes in a woman he seeks be more realistic. harsh words, yes.

I am not sure if what you say is true. I do think there is some sexist thinking behind it but society itself is still somewhat sexist, so it doesn't surprise me. I think above all that women are attracted to confidence, and actual career or salary means very little. It's about how a man carries himself and if he takes pride in his work. I mean, at least this is true for me, and many women I know. But I don't claim to speak for ALL women everywhere.

Seesaw

I don't think your words are harsh, is that what you meant? Because I agree with you and I would have also added that I didn't think baldness, age disparity or how socially successful the man's brother is should have anything to do with the individual's inability to interact successfully with women. Either this is the same person who has been posting thinly veiled hostility towards woman for many months under a variety of screen names or there are now enough of these hapless guys to form a social group and to move this misogyny off the relationship forum.

I do not find "How Horrible Women Are" to be a supportive, therapeutic topic for a mental health website and these constant attempts to argue and bicker are upsetting. I do understand there are people who enjoy debating and arguing and surely there are websites devoted to that? One of the best ways for men to figure out how women really are is to put down the porn mags, switch off the webcam girl websites, stop looking at internet porn, and stop reading all those blogs and vlogs written by misogynistic losers and to work, worship and volunteer alongside real women. And yes, before anyone gets his or her panties in a bunch, I recognize web cam girls, lap dancing strippers, prostitutes, and porn stars are real live actual breathing women (the anime stuff aside)--but they are acting a role designed to appeal to the absolute lowest common denominator: the dollar bill.

I disagree on some small details but for the most part I think you've hit the nail on the head here.

Good points!!!

Saw you write that a few times, as someone who has watched many failed, broken relationships... All can say is sorry

I don't think viewing the sweeter sex (being male or female) as the enemy is healthy way of life even if you enjoy porn a wee bit too much.

Anyhow I dunno how a body could be that way, my best friendships online and off were women/girls. I don't have to worry about seeming gay, and just be myself no ego. Romantically I may be inexperienced/unsuccessful... But romance is a hole other ball of wax .

Interesting topic! Personally, the incurable romantic in me still believes that personality (and/or whatever things - not just careers - that you are passionate about) matters as much as your ability to bring home the bacon. It's a partnership, where each side may bring different qualities, but where the sum of those parts is roughly equal for each.

The caveat I'll throw in though, is that it can be trickier when depression is present on either side, since that is capable of rendering the most passionate of people into what appears to be fully fledged slackerdom.

I don't think depressed people usually attracts anyone worth having most of the time.

I think passion, and driven people usually attract people romantically from what I've seen. After all USUALLY successful/optimistic partners make the best cheerleaders, and in my experience when you feel loved for who you are by someone other than family they have a tendency to inspire you work harder at your goals. Not for them of course, but because everything you aspire to be feels right.

As someone who has experienced some level of depression for their whole life so far, I'd have to disagree there - while it doesn't make things any easier, a passionate/driven person can also be (and in history, often have been) depressed as well...

I think this is right, no one is content all the time. Not everyone is A-ok 100% of the time. However it's hard to hold an emotion forever, specially when your mind is busy. I think its hard to maintiain goals etc when you're depressed (even though we have a tendency to forget our emotions when busy).

Fortunately depression doesn't always define a person's life. And people often have happier moments as well.In my experience depression didn't make me lose sight of my goals but it certainly didn't make me motivated or feel passionate. It was a case of fake it till you have it.
So I kept up school to a degree, ran kept some fitness... Not because of passion, but because if I kept it up maybe something good might happen.