Standing up for others, an issue of boundaries

Piggybacking off a previous thread about highly dysfunctional friendships with horrendous power imbalance...

When is it appropriate to speak up or fight on behalf of someone else? Suppose you were witness to Friend A berating Friend B, and you wanted to tell off Friend A for being a **** because you like Friend B. Suppose also that the Friend B played along with the abuse and made no mention either way of wanting you to speak up for them.

I have a habit of interjecting in people's arguments, especially when one party is running roughshod over the other. I usually justify this as "chivalry" or whatever, but deep down I know that it's just because I like fighting and no one will fight with me directly anymore because I'm mean.

Lately, however, it has occurred to me that I may be overstepping the boundaries of Friend B, and maybe that makes me no better than Friend A, even if I am standing up for B, because I'm taking away their chance to speak up for themselves. Maybe it'll be better for them in the short term. But in the long term, it kinda sorta feels like I'm playing a game with A where B is the ball.

I don’t think you should get involved at all. It’s kind of like codependent behavior. You’ve talked about trying to change some of your behaviors and this is one that ties in with all of that.

It's seldom easy to intrvene appropriately when there is hurtful so-called "banter" going on. But once or twice I've seen/heard someone say quietly, "Hey now. Don't you think you're going a bit over the line?" or something similar. Only thing I've ever said & done in a similar situation was, I thought things were extremely out of hand and said that I'd be going bc I wasn't comfortable with the way the evening was unfolding.. And left.

So, is it the moral thing to not get involved at all? Or is it that my way of intervening is immoral and that I should refrain?

My experience has been completely the opposite. I have trouble staying out of it. But yeah, it can be difficult trying to handle the situation in a way that everyone is happy in the end.

@theoretical

I think it’s just generally considered healthier not to get involved. People pretty much need to speak up for themselves in many cases. I can see where you would step in and say something if you get annoyed at how far things are going but I personally think it’s best overall to refrain from jumping in and fighting that person’s battle, regardless of your intent.

I absolutely would interfere in cases or a child being abused or elderly or someone in a limited mental capacity.

Bottom line if a people can’t stand up for themselves because of power imbalance or limited capacity then it’s an honorable idea to interfere.

If however able bodied adults want to fight ad argue or talk nasty to each other, then who am I to say what’s right or wrong. Some people might have that kind of unhealthy dynamics, that’s how they roll. If I am uncomfortable, I’d remove myself.

Of course if someone is in danger, I’d call the police

If your intentions are to make peace, then it’s good to speak up. You might ask friend B why they let friend A talk to them like that. They may say it doesn’t bother them, or they may be thankful that you will help them stand up to and stop the bully.

If your intention is that you enjoy a good fight, then keeping out of it is probably best. Making peace is better than making war.

I would be inclined to agree that able bodied adults should stand up for themselves, and sometimes people simply enjoy arguing with each other. Lord knows I do. But for whatever reason, they don't stand up for themselves, and I don't get the impression that this power imbalance was mutually agreed upon.

I saw a youtube video the other day about a guy describing his experience with an emotionally abusive romantic partner and the heavy toll it had on his physical and emotional well-being. His description of his partner's treatment just seemed a bit too similar to how one of my friends treats her boyfriend. It's got me wondering about his mental health and whether or not he's genuinely okay with the way she treats him.

The video is this one, btw:
Content warning for discussion of

Do my intentions really matter if the result is the same either way?

“Do my intentions really matter if the result is the same either way?”

That’s a really interesting philosophical question. I think, yes, it does matter. Putting a bully in their place because you feel bad for and want to help their victim vs doing it because you want the rush of power, dominance. Even if both ways save the victim... the latter just feels like then you’d just be acting like a bully, too.

Maybe the two intentions would prove a different approach. The peacemaker would be kinder and trying to make everyone friends. The fighter would be more nasty, just putting the bully down to show their own dominance.

It does seem that way, at least when I get too carried away with the argument and start focusing more on winning than anything else. On the other hand, when the first bully has no intention of making peace, diplomacy just doesn't really work. At best, the first bully might play nice in order to appear reasonable, and then they're right back to controlling and demeaning everyone in line of sight. They don't want to have friends. They want to have puppets.

And sure, maybe enjoying a good fight makes me a bad person, but I can't really change the fact that I enjoy it, and I'm okay with who I am. Correct me if I'm wrong - I think I'll still be able to intervene appropriately if I don't lose sight of others' boundaries. Of course, first I have to figure out where those boundaries are and learn when/how to intervene appropriately.

It doesn’t make you a bad person, especially when your opponents enjoy it too. You’re just passionate and likely bored.

Oh so very much. It's like a gnawing on the mind that will never end.

Nonetheless, I feel that other people who try to dominate and bully others are fair game.

What would you like to do that really challenges and excites you (and is legal)? I’d love to do something with my potential too. I’ve wasted too much time battling A holes for love.

There isn't anything that really challenges or excites me. The biggest drawback to a dearth of complex emotions is that any emotion, positive or otherwise, is short-lived, if they even happen at all. Love isn't something I'm capable of experiencing, and I get more excitement out of battling assholes.

@theoretical

It sounds like your passion is similar to search & rescue. You want to help out those who cannot (for whatever reason) help themselves.

I'd say that your intentions are good, heroic even.

Whether or not it is a good idea to intervene, well, that's situational. It would depend on whether or not the "victim" can be taught how to fight his/her own battles. If so, then that would be the best step. But sometimes there are situations that call for someone to step in. "Mediation" is a career that involves stepping into a situation when two parties cannot agree (the two parties can be businesses or families, in tort law, business law, or family law). Mediation in no way an act of co-dependency, and neither is search & rescue. If you're stopping a fight (verbal or physical), mediating a situation, or even temporarily stopping a parent or an abusive person from beating up a child, elderly person, disabled person, or battered partner, those are heroic deeds, at least for the short-term. In cases of child abuse, elder abuse, intimate partner violence (all involving some sort of domestic violence), the abuse may be ongoing because the victims either cannot leave or are coerced into staying. Still, the act of stopping an abuse in public is heroic. It's best to call the police or protective services (for child or elder maltreatment) if some abuse is happening.

If it's a friend who has a pattern of involving you in their drama, then that could lead to co-dependency; in essence, you are being used and/or triangulation is occurring. In those cases, set your boundaries and/or walk away. Not worth your time if your advice or help is not going to be heard or appreciated. It's tough when it's someone involved in an ongoing intimate partner violence or workplace bullying; your help may be only temporary, and escape is hard for victims even when police and authorities are involved.

Have you thought about a career in search and rescue, police, or some other hero-like job? You definitely have the passion involved in heroic jobs.

I'm not so sure about that...

I've tried encouraging them to stand up for themselves. It tends to help somewhat, but never lasts. I don't know what it is. It seems like they're so unwilling to confront others that they won't even defend themselves.

It's more like drama occurs and I willingly involve myself in it.

Not police.

I've worked security for a casino and for an armored truck, although the former mostly involved arguing with drunk people, and the latter involved transporting money. And neither of them paid very well. Search and rescue does sound rather interesting. I'm not sure I'd qualify, but I might look into it.

@theoretical

I don’t think enjoying arguments and fighting necessarily makes someone a “bad person.” My only reason for suggesting that you generally refrain from speaking up on someone’s behalf is that I know you’re working on making different choices for yourself.

@theoretical

I don’t think enjoying arguments and fighting necessarily makes someone a “bad person.” My only reason for suggesting that you generally refrain from speaking up on someone else’s behalf is that I know you’re working on making different choices for yourself.

I don’t think intention necessarily makes a difference either. You know what they say about the road to hell being paved with good intentions and all. Whether a person intends good or bad seems irrelevant when the outcome is essentially going to be exactly the same.

I feel like emotions are usually short lived, too... even those warm fuzzies of love. Sure, there’s a mostly baseline calm, normal. Then the joy is only for moments as is the despair. I’m sorry to hear you don’t feel love. Has this always been the case for you, even as a small child?

As for the friends and fighting, it’s all pretty harmless unless it turns really toxic and violent.

Maybe you’d make a great lawyer!

Yeah, I am trying to learn to have better self-control. It doesn't really bother me if I overstep someone's boundaries, for whatever reason, but it does bother me if I do so unintentionally. Especially if I ever want to have a romantic relationship, I need to know these things lest it become abusive. Which is a lot easier when it's a normal relationship with clear boundaries. But how does one navigate a relationship that's already abusive?

I'm inclined to agree, although TishaBuv made a good point that, if one's intentions are not so great, it's usually going to show through eventually. I have trouble hiding my amusement during a heated argument. Sometimes I don't even bother trying.

I think so. I've always thought this was normal, and it was only after lengthy discussions with and observations of others did I realize that I was missing something. Apparently, other people weren't simply going through the motions when, for example, embracing a loved one in a hug; they were having a connection. The hug meant something to both of them. Of course, a hug doesn't always have some deep meaning. But for me, it never does.

And honestly, when I get the impression that someone is trying to have a connection with me, it kinda weirds me out and I don't know how to handle it. I'm getting better at that, though.

I would love to be a lawyer, but I can't afford the schooling right now.

Hey @theoretical
Wow good but loaded topic. I would seriously need to weigh the importance of my involvement and check my motives. What will I get out of this and will it truly help the person I think is the victim? Will the bully stop the behavior or learn something? Will I feel just and righteous about interfering? Will I feel like a better person because I spoke up? Is this my issue or a law enforcement issue? I made the mistake of getting wrapped up and inserted myself into a friends' bad marriage. Believe me this husband was a jerk and treated her like crap and she said she wanted me to back her up when he told him she wanted him to leave. So all revved up I opened my mouth when they were fighting knowing how wrong he was. Guess what? They stayed together and I stopped talking to her. Like divine said a child or limited capacity individual is a no brainer- get involved. And two of my children are adults and I cant promise mama bear would stay put if I thought they were right and being treated unfairly but truly, would I really solve anything by interjecting or would I ultimately undermine the victim (or my adult children). I suppose the safest bet would be to ask the victim if the bully's actions bother them and ask why they have trouble addressing it and if they would want to. But ultimately it is their job and none of my business.

The sort of repayment that feels like a swift kick in the nuts. Did you confront her about it? Demand monetary compensation for time wasted?

I suppose it makes sense, though. Abusers spend years breaking down the self-esteem of their intended victim. It isn't like some good samaritan is going to undo all of that mind****ery in a single afternoon over tea. I'm not even sure it's possible to restore someone's confidence if that person is living under the same roof as their abuser and being subjected to gaslighting for hours every day.