adult son's girlfriend is toxic

If he does come running to you, there is something else you can do but again it will still leave the ball in his court. At the point he is voicing his concerns, you can again offer your perspective and advice but with the caveat that at that point you let him know that it is his choice, that if these are serious concerns, it's on him to deal with it, accept it or leave. help him get to a point where he is thinking and asking himself what is important, what is worth putting up with and at what point it's no longer worth sacrificing his peace and happiness. Try to get him to realize that he is in control of the choice he makes to do what is necessary to make a change in the relationship and/or his life.

thank you for your response.

i have thought of reporting her for the drugs, but domestic violence? there is no evidence of that. and i've come to the conclusion that by me doing that would only make things worse for both my son and me. and as long as my granddaughter is being taken care of and fed and more importantly not abused in any way i'm willing to be the outsider keeping tabs.

she has another daughter, 14, from another relationship that is basically typical, except for the fact she has gender acceptance questions she is trying to work through. never any indications of any abuse from what i know.

bottom line, this is one of the most difficult things i am witness to. and i am still clinging to the hope that my son will one day separate from her.

I been through this with my sibling. Start gathering evidence against her. She doesn't have to know that you report her. Anyone can call the police said they saw her do something. See if you can get legal help from a lawyer. If she hitting your son and he tells you call the police anonymously.

i have started keeping my own documentation of questionable actions by her. she has hit my son in the past, and i do have photos of that, but if it's happening recently, he's keeping it from me.

i have reached the point where i am so sick and tired of worrying all the time over something i feel is out of my hands. right now they are back in the "honeymoon" stage, which i know all too well, and i feel this is deepening into an ongoing lifestyle, which can last forever. i try to reason with him, but it seems to fall on mute ears.

right now, except for my granddaughter, i am trying to distance myself from their problems. he is going to have to handle this on his own, unless he reaches out to me for help, i'm keeping a close distance.

I understand. I would contact social service.

Yeah, I don't understand why he would stay with someone like that and given how long they've been together, can't even make the argument that's it's the best for the kids. Sounds like it was terrible before they were even born.

Does he worry about the children if they broke up, as in on the off chance custody became an issue? Courts typically sides with mothers or not, unless your son has a checkered past as well, I'd like to think they'd give full custody to him.

I am a mother of adults, I do not feel I need to 'help no matter how unwelcome the help may be' (apologies if I am not quoting exact wording). Unwanted help is intrusion.
It truly sounds like time to back off on beating up on the mother....
It sounds so unhealthy for everyone, especially the kids as they pick up on Everything. She knows she is being piled on so it likely makes it really impossible for her and your son to work together on anything.
If there is real reason to involve authorities, do so.
Otherwise, perhaps talking to a T would help you to deal with the situation in a less (I say this based only on what I have read) destructive way.

he has voiced his concern that if they were to break up, "knowing her as i do" she would try and keep him from seeing his daughter. he has a clean record and, i feel, would have no problem gaining custody, if not full then at least, shared.

sometimes people stay in toxic relationship because it becomes the norm and they know no different. i am a prime example of that, having stayed in a bad marriage for 20+ years, but i was hoping, as do most parents, that my son wouldn't follow in those particular footsteps...

i do not remember saying 'help no matter how unwelcome the help may be' , but you may be quoting another poster. i have backed off, and they are now into what i call the "honeymoon stage." up down up down...

as long as my granddaughter is a part of my life, healthy, and happy, it's up to the 2 of them, being "adults" to figure this out. after all, sometimes separating proves to be the best thing for everyone involved.

Yeah, I'd worry about that too. You never know who you'll get as a judge and if they're truly impartial or if they heavily favor mothers regardless of how much of a train wreck they might be. Nevermind what the mother might try to accuse him of to try to make him look bad, bald faced lie or not. Or, God forbid, make a physical/sexual abuse claim against him in regards to the child. Eventually the truth comes out, but that doesn't matter usually in a court of opinion.

I forgot to add that I was also in a very toxic relationship for approx. 6 years. We weren't right for each other, but for one reason or another couldn't see it or actively ignored the warning signs.

She had similar substance abuse issues in the beginning. Not heavy drugs, but alcohol, benzos, and stimulants. And then add on top of that some fairly symptomatic borderline personality disorder that she was very resistant to getting treatment for, even when I essentially begged her and told her it wasn't right that I was seeing a psychiatrist, a regular therapist, and a CBT therapist for social anxiety; that I was by no means perfect and didn't expect her to be "cured," but I expected both of us to put in the work if we thought the relationship was worth it.

At the end of the day, whether it was her not getting help, my own issues, or our personalities just not being right and we couldn't give each other what we wanted or needed, I don't regret the time we spent. It made me who I am for better or worse.

Hey @kitkat620 I do not think you are selfish at all, I think you need to find out what your sons' expectations are of you and set some boundaries. If he expects you to give advice then you may need to clarify that the advice you give will only be a few times and then after that you dont want to talk about her again. You may want to tell him that you feel awkward and that you dont know what you should say to him when he comes running to you. You may need to tell him that you do not want to discuss it anymore and tell him what the consequences will be if he does. By consequences I mean what will happen if he violates those boundaries? (Like you may have to disengage the conversation until he stops involving you) or tell him that you will talk to him another time. Find out what his motivations are for telling you about her. Does he want you to tell him what to do? Like her? Intervene?

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Originally Posted by kitkat620 the majority of the times, yes. and as selfish as this may sound, at times i wish he wouldn't. but i will always continue to be there for him to listen and help as best i can.

hi, thanks for your reply. i haven't talked to him about her since the last episode a couple of weeks back. and right now, they are getting along, from what i can tell, but i have made it clear to him, by my silence, that i don't want to hear anything about her, good or bad, and i do not ask how things are going concerning their relationship. it's less stressful for me this way. if he does want to talk, he knows i am here, but he also knows i will give my honest opinion on how i feel about her and their relationship.

when the girl is good, she is very, very good, but when she's bad, she's evil, selfish, uncaring, and mentally destructive to both herself and the people around her. i honestly feel she is addicted to something, or at the very least, abusing some sort of substance.

i've had almost constant contact with my granddaughter and she seems healthy and happy, so i guess that's the most important thing right now.

nothing will change until your son is ready. and that is his call only. he may know deep in his heart she is not right but until he is ready all the harping on it, talking, and even insight from a psychologist isn't going to be the push he needs. he is a parent...to push him into making a decision is as wrong as you feel he is in making him stay. it is a call only HE can make, and whatever call he does make, you aas family need to abide by it or leave him alone

Hey @kitkat620 I am a little confused: Above in another post, you said this:

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i have thought of reporting her for the drugs, but domestic violence? there is no evidence of that. and i've come to the conclusion that by me doing that would only make things worse for both my son and me. and as long as my granddaughter is being taken care of and fed and more importantly not abused in any way i'm willing to be the outsider keeping tabs.

But in this post you are saying this:

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Originally Posted by kitkat620 i have started keeping my own documentation of questionable actions by her. she has hit my son in the past, and i do have photos of that, but if it's happening recently, he's keeping it from me.

Do you mean that only recently she has hit him? Because hitting him in the face is DV and doing that in the home of the child is an abusive environment for the child even if the child isnt being physically abused right now. Many cases of DV spill over into abuse of the child, even if its emotional abuse. I think its a great idea you are keeping track of it.

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i have reached the point where i am so sick and tired of worrying all the time over something i feel is out of my hands. right now they are back in the "honeymoon" stage, which i know all too well, and i feel this is deepening into an ongoing lifestyle, which can last forever. i try to reason with him, but it seems to fall on mute ears.

I get this. Its very frustrating. Its one of those things that makes you want to shake him right? Many times partners that are abused are afraid to leave because of what the abuser will do to them or their child. When a woman is being abused by her boyfriend they go to a DV shelter. I dont know what a man should do and to be frank I feel its biased for society to think that a man cant be abused to the point where they are afraid to leave.

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right now, except for my granddaughter, i am trying to distance myself from their problems. he is going to have to handle this on his own, unless he reaches out to me for help, i'm keeping a close distance.

Very good points.

Reading through the whole thread I am beginning to wonder. The DIL is sounding more like a scapegoat than a toxic person.
What if 'she' were one of us? What would actually help?

the last account he has told me about her hitting him was years before my granddaughter was born. (they've been together 10+ years). like i said, i am distancing myself from their personal problems, and my only concern is my granddaughters well being, unless he reaches out to me, then, of course, i will be available to help in any way i can.
thanks for your replies.

no, she is definitely NOT the scapegoat, even though i honestly think she does have mental problems that have not been addressed properly or treated.

she has been trouble since almost day one, and her trouble stems way before she even became involved with my son. there is obviously something he does love about her, and that is what he clings to, the goodness he does see in her.

right now, they are getting along and taking my granddaughter to a water park for her b-day. i am more at peace knowing they are getting along and doing things together, however hypocritical that may sound.

Quoting the original post here.

"Jane" is no scapegoat. She IS toxic and the poor AP has been exasperated and at her wits end.

She's totally irresponsible, she's a convicted felon, is frequently getting arrested and probably is a drug addict. She neglects the child, has hit her son in the past, lies, and picks fights.

Maybe she has unaddressed mental health issues, but she is certainly toxic to the granddaughter and the OP's son.

And the poor OP's son is probably scared to leave her because he's afraid he won't see his child again... is my guess.

To the OP, I am glad you feel more at peace over this right now.

That was my first response, but as the conversation continued I began to feel differently.
When was the last time she was arrested? Being convicted of something doesn't make you a toxic person. And later texts say the kids are fine....and he has not said he fears losing his children this is all third hand...
We really have no information on the father in this case.
And, certainly the mother will not be looking for help from anyone close to her. Perhaps she is the one afraid to leave. I don't know, it's just become so speculative when it sounded clear at first... I am very skeptical when One person is "IT" in a (clearly) complicated family relationship. If this were true, he'd be divorced and have custody of the kids-----if he can show she's an addict, destructive etc...and he is a responsible father.

I'm guessing you or a family member has been in jail. Being in jail doesn't make one toxic by itself. All of it added together makes "jane" toxic. When the OP says she's toxic and lists out all the reasons why I think we should support her in that. Getting arrested for fighting outside of a bar, neglecting the child, lying and picking fights certainly makes her toxic. The son did express to her once that he was worried he wouldn't see his daughter if he left her. Regardless, I don't think this type of argument is supportive of the OP or helpful to the OP, and I think it should be dropped.

No. No one in my family has been in jail. As an RN, I did work in corrections for a few years.

When there is an individual/parent that has problems with addiction/alcoholism, everyone ends up walking on eggshells around THAT DISEASE. AND, if this woman was out all night drinking or drugging and comes home and the husband goes to work leaving this 2 year old with her? THAT IS CHILD NEGLECT because no way can a mother hung over will be able to give that baby the attention, caring, love it needs and deserves.

The OP's son is a codependent and enabler. To think this relationship is not affecting that child is WRONG too.
Not only that but he is giving this woman that clearly has issues with addiction WAY TOO MUCH power. He needs to go to some alanon meetings, he needs to be educated on the fact that he is a codependent enabler with someone that is unstable due to addiction issues and he needs to also go to adult children of alcoholics so he can hear how this dynamic caused so much DAMAGE in the children that had to grow up with a parent that is an addict. That entire family is living the CYCLE of ADDICTION, period!!

I just took the time to re-read the posts. It is possible to see something from another viewpoint. I'll let it go, I have no wish to upset anyone. Hugs to all.

Sometimes there is the elephant in the room that individuals are afraid to face and talk about out of fear of getting that elephant so upset that everyone gets hurt.

From what you have shared, it sounds like both you and your son are afraid of the elephant that may react badly where you and your son will not be able to be around that child.