Describing others as toxic people

While I know there are people with particular personalities who are prone to blame the other guy when the problem is within themselves, the problem is in generalizing that anyone describing someone else as toxic is doing that. Generalizing (in general - LOL) is a bad habit. But I find most people I've personally run into (not generalizing here - actually working from specific personal examples) who have a person in their life who is genuinely dangerous for them/ toxic for them (whatever term they use) aren't using that term except for one particular individual in their life - and those "toxic" individuals tend to be highly abusive, narcissistic, manipulative SOB's and the use of "toxic" to describe them is probably kinder than those "toxic" individuals deserve.

What I'm hearing is that there is a minority of people who use excuses to deny their own responsibility and project it on to others. I agree.

I've never targeted anyone. Being mentally ill, we are statistically more likely too be the ones targeted. I was. Looking at myself. I see someone just doing the best she can in spite of it all.

Sounds like you don't really understand how it is for people who have much personal experience with this. I say that because it's a lot of oversimplification with the idea that it's just about labelling and avoiding solving the actual problem. Why would the two be mutually exclusive anyway? It would be nice if the biggest problem was just labelling in those cases, anyway. No, the biggest problem is far bigger than that. Trauma, PTSD, cPTSD is no joke either. And so on.

I'm actually finding it an interesting question lately as to what percentage of the population is toxic people. It doesn't seem like a high percentage, but it's unfortunately higher than it should be, according to my understanding. They are definitely not the majority of people (thank god for that), but it seems like, you can still run into them pretty easily. Not on a daily basis, but still it's something I've really had to toughen up about to make sure I don't get affected by any of them. Because it does just happen more often than I would like it, even once or twice every month is too much, I have only one life and I don't want to waste time on such interactions.

So, of course, I totally agree that keeping them away is what's most important. No engagement whatsoever.

My sister's husband is one of them. That one isn't going away, unfortunately but I do avoid him as much as possible (luckily I don't actually have to meet them).

And then the most important comments I wanted to make about your post. I am going to call a spade a spade, if you are not okay with hearing about the negative side of life, you do not have to engage with this. But I want to put this out there in case someone hears it and it helps them recognise and avoid such negatives more effectively.

It is a misconception that people cannot treat you badly or abuse you unless you let them. Now, if there was psychoeducation available to everyone right from elementary school, I could then perhaps agree with you. But as things are now, no. Definitely do not agree.

So, it's just a theory that you have to get healthy and then you'll be OK and that there won't be any problems for sure. I feel like it's a theory that skips over some of the actual evidence. It would be nice if it was that simple.

Again, it just doesn't work like this though. It's not like "should one slip past the boundaries by being a little less obvious". Nope, unfortunately. I don't know if you've spent much time with truly manipulative people in a close relationship, people who are anything but straightforward, people who know what specifically to manipulate about you. To make the manipulation just that much more effective. It's not about being a "little less obvious", that's a vast oversimplification unfortunately. I do wish life was that nice without any dark spots in it.

This has nothing to do with a victim position, either. This is simply about calling a spade a spade. Admitting that life has dark sides instead of trying to escape them and their existence. Since that's how I originally became a target. A long time ago, I refused to believe that there can be those bad things but they do exist. And that knowledge helps me avoid such people in future.

The other big misconception in my opinion is the idea that healthy people cannot be approached by people with less than nice intentions. That in my experience is very much a misconception. I was friends with someone, who was a well-adjusted, healthy, positive, optimistic, strong woman. Yet her boyfriend traumatised her as he turned out to be a psychopath pretty much - She got PTSD from the whole experience, of course.

How he got to her? So she was not feeling very well and was vulnerable when he found a way to get her trust and exploit her eventually. He pretended to be this nice, attentive person, supportive of her in her troubles, of course. I could go on but what's the point?

In general also, there are tactics to make someone who was originally healthy, well-adjusted, not co-dependent by nature at all, to be vulnerable, emotionally confused, messed up, "crazy," dependent and so on. Read up on trauma bond, too. Things like that exist.

So. It's not like healthy people cannot ever be vulnerable to anything. That again has nothing to do with claiming to be a victim.

It can be hard to face the thought though of course, that you (general you) could have vulnerabilities that manipulative people could exploit intentionally or they could even create vulnerabilities or deepen existing vulnerabilities, or that other toxic people could even unintentionally engage with these vulnerabilities. But admitting that such things exist does not mean taking or endorsing a victim position whatsoever. It is simply not denying the dark side of life and being prepared to deal with it instead. Preferably, deal with it by recognising these things ASAP and avoid engagement, and/or keep up very hard boundaries if engagement is required to some extent. Both internal and external boundaries. Which may take time to learn but that's perfectly normal too if things take time to learn.

To me, this is what taking responsibility is about. Accepting that these things happen, that it is normal in the sense that it does exist, it did happen and it says nothing about you personally; that it's true even if you were healthy before, even if you were never abused before, that it doesn't mean something is wrong with you, that it doesn't mean something was defective about you, NO, it's perfectly normal to have some vulnerabilities, even hidden ones, hidden to yourself even, blind spots, and the like. Recognising them, accepting these facts, that is what taking responsibility means to me.

And the other side of this is what I already mentioned, is that life is full of hard sh**, and that enough (too many) manipulative, toxic or even abusive people do exist and that you do have to recognise them, not be a pollyanna or believe in niceness so much to the point of becoming naively idealistic. It would be nice. But we can't afford to just be naively idealistic. Unless you (general you) are really lucky and you live a sheltered enough life or otherwise have ideal living circumstances.

This is much like going to the doctor when you know it's advisable to get checked out even if you feel like there is nothing "wrong" with you. It doesn't make you a victim if you are willing to go to the doctor and get the label for the problem and then get a treatment after the label identified the problem.


I could go on and on but... I think I've said all I had on my mind after reading your post.

Anyhow. All this is not just based on my own experiences. There are many articles, resources on this topic, including how manipulative people can find even the healthy well-adjusted people, and how some of them specifically like to target such people, to try and tear them down to exploit them that much more effectively, and so on and so on. I suggest you read up on it, if you want to understand it more deeply.

I think if someone has issues with people they know in real life who claim others are toxic for no reason, they need to address it with those specific people they know.

Otherwise it becomes very generalized and is clearly upsetting for some people who had unfortunate encounters with dangerous, violent or plain mean people.

Yes some people project and don’t look at themselves first. But we cannot claim that everyone does that or that everyone is targeting others if they say someone is toxic.

I like what one poster said that lots of people with mental health issues are targeted and ridiculed. So if they want to protect themselves from mean people, it doesn’t mean they are projecting or not looking at themselves. It means they are looking out for themselves. They are within their rights to do so

There is SO much wrong with this . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molinit People cannot treat you badly unless you let them. They can't abuse you unless you let them. They can't take advantage of you unless you let them. When you are healthy, you don't attract these people and should one slip past the boundaries by being a little less obvious, you identify and remove them from your life much earlier. Just calling people toxic or narcissistic without you taking responsibility for how they got past your healthy boundaries to treat you badly or abuse you is a victim type of position. Get healthy and these people can't hurt you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins There is SO much wrong with this . . .

Actually it is not wrong for all people though it is for some. The one thing WRONG with the statement is that people can treat you bad. The only thing actually is that healthy people don't accept bad treatment while unhealthy people due to abuse or whatever, never learned how to counter it.

I am sure I encountered my share of bullies & "toxic" people growing up since my parents were really VERY dysfunctional....BUT the way I responded kept them from continuing to try & my mom never successfully made me feel bad for responding to some of the ways she tried to manipulate sympathy.

I am sure that the personalities we were born with along with the environment we live in contribute to how we deflect those kinds of people who touch out lives. Seriously, I fought hard against my now ex who thought he could control what I did. Simple ultimatum.....if you don't like the goals or plans I told you about before the wedding & gave you a chance to back out then....you can get the #@[[ out now. I don't play games with abusive people or even behaviors that could be construed that way by others. Always had boundaries but they have gotten more FIRM with age & good therapy.

Only reason I ended up staying in my bad marriage so long was because I got lost in my career & really just kept cleaning up the messes he made financially while I was handling my career. It was when that ended I finally got a good picture of just how bad it was but then was trapped in it financially while still fighting him like I always did

I take personal offense to this distinction that people who are abused frequently are unhealthy. Great offense. I am not unhealthy myself, or at least I am not unhealthy in several ways, and I have dealt with plenty of abuse and bullying in my life. I am about as level headed and grounded at the healthiest person alive. Healthy people can certainly be abused and mistreated too. And honestly, how many truly "healthy" people are there in the world? Mentally and emotionally? Not many! Most everyone I know has some sort of mental or emotional issue, and I know a lot of people. This forum has how many thousands of members? And all of us suffer from mental health issues. This thread is becoming very judgmental of those who suffer from abuse or bullying, imo. I think it should be closed.

Often we do not see ourselves as others see us. Whether we are offended by that or not, it is just a fact of life for EVERYONE.

Ever read medical records or psych records? Even the professionals don't see us the way we see ourselves.

I can see how some may disagree with certain opinions. Yet people have a right to their opinions. It doesn’t equate to a personal attack.

I think it’s one of those words used to describe a person who continuously behaves badly and to a point that it’s healthier to avoid interacting with them as much as possible.

That’s like interacting with someone who has AUD (alcohol use disorder)I don’t care to be exposed to their mood swings and constant poor decisions. I have seen enough of that. Yet I do respect the effort to admit there is a problem and an effort made to change it. Yet that means also owning up to the bad behaviors directed at others who do not deserve it. Some with this disorder become career victims and constantly blame others.

Strangers on a forum that I have never met do not know me from a hole in the wall. Only the people who have met me in person know how I really am. As with all and any of us. No one can read people that well just from texts on a page all about their problems in life. It's only one small portion of the person, and is not the whole person. We need to keep that in mind at all times.

Many people are conditioned to believe they deserve bad treatment. Many were raised to blame themselves. “If only I didn’t do or say XYZ, he’d treat me better. “ We want to be careful not to tell people that they should always blame themselves. Many people also believe that bad treatment isn’t that bad because that’s all they know, so let’s not tell people they must accept bad treatment because they aren’t perfect themselves or “it isn’t that bad”.

Sure there are people who enjoy to play victims and don’t take responsibility for anything in life, it’s always someone else’s fault.

But let’s not assume it’s everybody. Generalizations and stereotyping aren’t helpful for anyone.

I think there are two parallel conversations in the thread and they are both driven with different codes. That’s why there will never converge.

This matter is very complicate. It has lots of implications of different nature. From genetic to ethical ones. It may be treat in a general sense or conversely, attending to specific cases. And I think this is what is going on.

Some of us, and correct me if I’m wrong, are referring to a overuse of words such as, toxic, vampires, narcissists, psychopaths, you name it.
And we have given reasons as to why we disagree to use these words to address or discard people and wonder what take others to use them so much often, I mean, which possible causes maybe behind it other that the fact that they have been put on the spotlight by self-help authors to do their business.

Some of these conclusions may be:

- They are trendy words.

- A psychological need to make the other responsible for what it may happen to us and we can’t handle at a point in time.
I understand it’s human but it’s a runaway through the false door.

- They are labels that discard or belittle the whole person. And it even might ruin a person’s reputation. So, it’s worthy to use them with caution.

- The big majority of people have behaviours that might bother another person. So, unless we are Mother Therèse, we are always gonna screw up things with someone. As a punctual behaviour or as one of our own personal characteristic that preventing us from fitting in with some people.

Then, there are many of you who are putting specific examples of people who have hurt you or taken advantages of you. Sometimes, even to a point of developing PTSD.
I don’t see anyone has denied that fact.
Noone is denying that there are people who abuse others. There are little kids who have even died because they have been repeatedly abused. Women, elderly people, little kids and dependent people are the most vulnerable in this case.
These cases are a minority. If I repeatedly see MANY people in my life or who has been part of it in the past, as individuals who abused me or wanted to abuse me, I saw them as a negative influence, because they failed me or I think they are fake and were never friends...if they are MANY, again, there’s something that is not working. And statistically, it can’t be the whole world.

@Alive99, in relation to your reply to @Molinit, aren’t you again making assumptions about another person’s background or experience, only because, (s)he thinks and sees things in a different way?

Sometimes people are bullied because of conditions they have no control over. My husband has been bullied in life due to Tourette’s and OCD. No he isn’t a victim moping around. He is successful and well adjusted and he never allowed it to break him. But he had some experiences that are quite disturbing. Lets not tell victims of bullying that they are “targeting” bullies by calling it what it is. Let’s not tell him it’s his fault he was bullied or that he was bullied because he is unhealthy. He is healthier than the bullies! That’s for sure!

As about abuse victims. Many abused children choose abusive partners. Many children growing up in abusive marriages choose abusive partners. Sure they should work on getting better but that’s not that easy for some. We can blame them for making bad choices but it’s not that simple. Children of alcoholics marry alcoholics and then their children marry alcoholics until maybe someone breaks the pattern... or not...etc etc so it’s entire chain to blame. Not just one person.

It’s easy to place blame. Easy to generalize and oversimplify. But it’s not all black and white. Life is more complicated than that

Very wise statement eskie! . 🔨 😉👍

And many people here have been victims of abuse. MANY. I think people should be very careful around allotting any kind of blame and pointing fingers at anyone when it comes to abuse victims or victims of any kind. I find this whole thread to be about pointing fingers, rather than having any kind of compassionate stance towards anyone for any issues they may face. People who like to judge and point fingers are usually very insecure in how they see themselves and need to find fault with others.

136 responses. Wows. You can describe someone as toxic for you. It shouldn’t even be a discussion.

Thank you. I agree.

Technically, yes, perhaps a minority by sheer numbers, but according to several sources I quickly looked at, a full third of women report having been the victim of abuse in an intimate relationship, and nearly 50 percent report emotional abuse. That is just in intimate relationships - doesn't even factor in other people like schoolmates, people we work with, caregivers, authority figures, other family members . . .

Not so sure it is as much of a minority as one might seem to think.

You also, again, seem to be saying that if it is happening to you multiple times, then you are somehow to blame ("something that is not working" appears to blame the victim). Maybe it is a character flaw in the victim . . . but where did that character flaw originate? Unfortunately, it is often the response to previous exposure to . . . "toxic" people and situations. Thus, the cycle of "violence" (which doesn't have to be physical).

Perhaps the bigger issue might be that, IF someone lets us know that their interactions with us are not healthy for them, i.e. "toxic", then our personal responsibility is to either actively work to figure out and correct our personal attitudes and actions if possible, OR to respect that person's need for distance, even if we don't agree with their assessment - we honestly can't always know what it is about ourselves that clashes with another person and is, for them, harmful. That doesn't make them wrong. Their experience is very real to them and may come from something we don't fully (and they may not fully) understand.

I just ran into this situation. My husband died from COVID a few weeks ago. He had been long estranged from his family of origin because, as a group and even as individuals, they truly were "toxic" in his life and he had finally been able to separate from them. Last week, completely unsolicited and without any warning, two of those family members took it upon themselves to show up on my doorstep. It was all about them and their odd way of seeking absolution I guess; it was entirely NOT about my husband to be quite honest. Those people do not and will not ever see how "toxic" they have honestly always been to my husband. It's not even gaslighting because they never have been able to see it for themselves. They would tell you they are normal, loving people, but they are completely unable to see their own toxicity. I was flabbergasted that they were choosing to invade my home and my privacy uninvited, disrespecting my husband's clear choice to separate from them, and attempting to manipulate me just the way they had always done to my husband during his life. These ARE toxic people by nature; it became blatantly clear to me when they were trying their same garbage on me as they've always tried on each other. Fortunately, I don't suffer a childhood wound from them like my husband did, so I am able to set boundaries and keep them away (so long as they don't try that foolishness again).

Some people -- unfortunately, far too many people -- truly are dangerous and damaging to others around them - some of them chronically so. Having that internal radar for those who can damage your spirit is a matter of self-care and preservation.

The word “you” in my post is meant for anyone reading, no one in particular.