Challenging Family Relationships

Oh how nice you were able to have a nice holiday! How exciting!!! And you are about to become a grandmother. That’s such an amazing experience. My first grandson just turned 7 months and honestly there’s nothing that compares to having a grandbaby. Exciting times ahead grandma!!!!

Congratulations, TishaBuv! I am so happy for you! You have been working so hard & it's paying off! God bless you, dear wonderful TishaBuv!

…and we’re back to challenging marriage. It’s beyond challenging, it’s broken. I am handling it better now, without the emotional dysregulation this time, so far… Now to tackle the depression that sweeps over me, knowing I should find myself somewhere else to go, but don’t know where. I do not want to let this get the better of me this time. At least my son is here today before he returns to school. I hope he’ll do something with me for distraction. I am going to make it seem like everything is fine here for his sake, trying to clear the stink from the air that is between h and me. This is the part in the past I feel worst about. Our home wasn’t a healthy, happy environment for the kids. They knew there was trouble between mom and dad, though we didn’t outright fight, nor did we give the silent treatment. It’s just obvious though subtle, so insidious. This was child abuse done to them. I will do my best to spare my son one more day of that.

Narcissistic/Toxic individuals NEED chaos to survive. They are very comfortable with their lies and exaggerations because these things produce the needed chaos the get a feed from so they don’t get bored. They see different environments as theirs, a place where they can create drama and chaos to feed off of. They will even have a sense of ownership of a person, especially a person that reacts in a way that contributes to the chaos they need to feel alive.

Actually, once you learn how to listen, they tell on themselves all the time. Because they develop a possessive mindset they tend to think everything is about them personally. If you have a different opinion and others agree with you they believe they are being ganged up on. Oh no! They prefer to be the “director” and if they feel that is threatened they will come at you and even throw a tantrum.

You were able to enjoy a holiday. While you had to work at maintaining a calm, the presence that used to bring the chaos was absent. Ah yes, distance can be a friend.

Healing and growing is slowly learning how to identify these individuals that thrive on chaos and know why they are unhealthy for you. They are in family, work places and on line communities as well.

Given how we owned a restaurant with a sizable bar and live entertainment, I witnessed these type of individuals, often alcoholics that were regulars looking for chaos and claiming it to be THEIR hangout. Ugh the things I witnessed as these individuals consumed alcohol exposing their true selves was something. And individuals well into their 50s too. I was younger and was not much of a drinker.

Once you begin to recognize the behaviors and the affect it has on you, that begins the journey to slowly healing.

I think it’s a blessing you have your sons. With all ups and downs of raising family, they bring joy (even if things with raising kids aren’t always roses and butterflies). Marriage could be a challenge, regardless if it’s a happy one or a challenging one.

Nothing is ever perfect but knowing that the kids are thriving and now new generation is coming up and it’s an exciting mystery about them and their future, you know you did the best you could (as all of us) and you and your husband did something (a lot!) right. Give yourself a pat on the back and enjoy your sons company

I got through the weekend without completely melting down and crying. But I did get angry and told him off briefly. Then, I withdrew into myself, there’s no point for the conversation and I know it. It’s hard to believe we have the same exact fight every weekend forever. It’s actually happening here.

I have an issue with invalidation; not being seen, heard, respected stemming from my FOO. Then my husband is the grand Poohbah of the gaslight. He is still gaslighting me about this same argument, saying he misunderstood. It’s just misunderstanding after misunderstanding. This was truly crazy-making.

What was this impossible thing I asked for? I asked him to bring forth some effort in our relationship. Specifically, he should, at least, make the smallest effort to make me feel like we are a man and a woman who are in a romantic relationship. He should make a plan for us to do something like a nice dinner, or treat me with some affection like we are lovers- that I want to feel loved especially at some time during a weekend, like a date night. This is the on-going fight. He just doesn’t ever step it up. No amount of my getting upset about his continually disappointing me at this will ever make him do it. He instead, is sucked in to his media addiction. He watches tv while he scrolls news headlines on his phone all day, non stop. There is nothing else. He doesn’t even speak to me, generally, while we are watching tv, like even to comment on the shows, minimally something generates from him. Fun guy, right?

I am going to Codependents Anonymous now. I have spent my married life completely dependent emotionally on his actions (inaction) and let it destroy me.

Could he have Aspergers?

Yeah ive been reading on youtube about autistic "demand avoidance" i think its called? Its like, i was gonna do that UNTIL you TOLD me to do it, now i just cant. Im a lot like that.

My husband has ADHD and it’s so hard for him to sit still as he is just wired to be constantly busy. So he watched TV and is often on his phone thumbing through things and then he has to move around. Conversations can be a challenge as he is so impatient.

That wiring is not anything I can change.

If he does, it would be extremely mild. We thought about that several years ago. I posed the question to the doctor/therapists we saw together. They laughed it off as ridiculous.

Maybe his actions are perfectly normal, IDK. But, I know it can’t possibly be all me in this. I have been consistently asking for and explaining exactly what I want to get my needs met. He has been consistently forgetting or misunderstanding so he does not give me what I want. Then I basically end up self trashing and giving him what he wants.

After a lot of watching videos about narcissism, I learned there is a covert, negligent narcissist, and a passive-aggressive personality disorder. Although neither of us meet all the criteria in any of those videos, there are traits that do match him with these. And I do fall a bit into the vulnerable narcissism category. My extreme emotional reactions put me into borderline category. I get it. I think this is the case here. I don’t even care if I would get diagnosed as a narcissist (which I have not). I just want this pain to stop. I am willing to improve myself, am desperately trying. And, I have learned, it is first and foremost c-ptsd for me.

Cptsd is basically describing the symptoms someone suffers from experiencing different traumas that interrupted their ability to develop a normal sense of safety in self. Instead, individuals unknowingly learned to survive by giving in to a presence that insisted on having control. This creates an ongoing desire for a rescuer. Added to that are all the fairy tales where young girls are encouraged to believe that a Prince Charming will come and rescue them and they will live happily ever after.

From what you have shared of your mother, she convinced you to give in to her need to create drama to secure her need to experience a sense of relevance. Unfortunately she likes to create drama to feel alive. Yet, it’s become part of her character to the point that she fails to see how toxic her drama hobby really is. Plus, given the age difference between you and your sisters, yes you were alone with her like an only child. Children want to please the parent, so you did not fully realize the dysfunction you were taught to see as normal.

This desire to want your own needs met only to fail and give in has been engrained in you from an early age.

That is a hard thing to change as it means changing self. That means others will not like that you don’t give up and give in.

Is there any possibility that you can come to 100% acceptance that he simply can't fulfill this role you deeply desire he would? Never ask him again. See it as that ship has sailed.

If so, it could give you incredible freedom. You can look to yourself to get those needs met. Go out for dinner or lunch by yourself. Afterwards, go for a walk in nature, a local park, community gardens, whatever turns your crank. Go browse in a mall.

You could plan events for yourself that you truly enjoy. This time of year there are usually craft fairs going on that are often fun to go browse thru. Other times of year, there could be wellness shows or other community events.
Join meetup and see what topics you might enjoy doing with others. You would be surprised at the variety of meetup groups. Something for everyone. Even something as simple as a small group walk.

This would give your husband his freedom from constantly being asked to do what he simply doesn't have in him to give. But more importantly, it frees you of the burden of trying to get another to meet your needs.

And that is incredibly rewarding.

I agree with what you are saying @RockyRoad007 but I don’t think Tisha would see that as liberating, but instead as giving in which can trigger her to experience very uncomfortable feelings.

Maybe those feelings have become too "comfortable". How can you have the same arguments or expectations for decades? Obviously tish is convinced that he COULD CHOOSE to do these things but he deliberately chooses not to.

Thats how i saw my mother. But the fact is, she was waiting for me to come over to HER side, that i was the stubborn, wrong one. Who decides who is right? There is no one right - thatz why we have 2 political parties. And nobody is going to convince them to not stick to their differences.

Where is it written that our partner HAS to do what we demand? I think it is written that they won't! Esp if it goes against their nature. Esp if they have the upper hand in the relationship.

So what does it MEAN that H chooses not to do what tish asks? There will certainly be uncomfortable feelings looking at that. Tish giving up the fight means accepting those ugly truths? WHAT ugly truths? Why concentrate on on the unknowable when you could just do as Rocky suggests.

At best there is compromise. Not sure the two of them can do that. I think Tisha may feel that is giving in.

I think she is TRYING very hard.

I also think that moving from her house/home to an apartment is a big change too. I am concerned if she has private space for herself.

I think many marriages struggle because people marry someone who does ABC and doesn’t do XYZ. But people really want someone who does XYZ but doesn’t do ABC. So people spend their entire life trying to get their partners become someone they aren’t.

Of course people change and conform to each other needs but only up to a point. At our core we don’t change that much. You don’t go to produce shop to buy dairy. They don’t have it. They can’t give it to you. And scorpion will sting a frog, for a simple reason “that’s who he is”.

Certainly we should try to be better partners and hope our partners get better. But at some point if it’s not happening then one only has two options: accept the reality that’s who your spouse is (don’t recommend accepting abuse) so you start enjoying other things in life or you leave.

Of course the third option is to stick around and fight (with your partner or with yourself), and be miserable. It doesn’t sound appealing. Life is too short.

Becoming an adult has to do with autonomy. Parents who have not developed their own autonomy often confuse enmeshment as abandonment when a child grows up and seeks autonomy as the next step in age appropriate development. The once enmeshed person often feels selfish and guilty, and then angry at a parent's reaction. A healthy parent raises a child to have their own independence and autonomy so they take care of themselves without being dependent on the aging parent who will not always be around. It's never too late to grow up in seeking healthier coping tools.

One of the things most women fail to get in a man is a man that can dominate and satisfy.

There are certain things you want from your husband that he is never going to provide you with and most women have to learn how to come to terms with this.

Does that make sense?

Thank you all for your comments. You all did hit on all the points in the matter. It is rather simple to comprehend my situation. I am glad I was able to explain it concisely so that you were all able to understand. I feel like I have been explaining over and over to my husband who chronically does not understand me. So thank you all for showing me I am understandable!

I have tried radical acceptance for he cannot and will not give me that attention or effort. I have told myself instead I will be the initiator. But, when the time comes for me to step it up, I just can’t bring myself to do it. It feels forced and unnatural. Then I get resentful that he won’t either. I want it so badly the bad mood comes over me and I sink into angry depression in disappointment.

This weekend, he asked me, as to clarify because he is so ever confused, “So if I had said on Friday that I wanted to take you out to dinner on Saturday, that would have been enough of me making an effort that you would have been happy?” And I said yes. It’s not about a dinner out. It’s about him making an ounce of effort to treat me like he feels sexually, romantically loving toward me. It is positive attention, flirtation dare I say. IDK if I am being ridiculous or a baby throwing a tantrum over something unreasonable, but I think the point of being in love, in a relationship, is that element exists in that relationship as foreplay, the initiation to sex. It’s more than sex, it is the glue that makes us feel in love with a romantic, sexual partner. The other kinds of love between non sexual partners; family, friends contains other behaviors that both he and I express to each other, but we are seriously lacking in the sexual chemistry (verbal, emotional, the smallest of actions). So, I do feel in my gut that my feelings here of feeling seriously deprived of this in my relationship is accurate because it should be but is not there.

I want to have a healthy relationship or I want to gain the strength to end the unhealthy one I have. I know I need to keep working on distraction, individuation.

This has been scary, unsettling to say the least. I got something stuck in my head that I can’t stop, this conflict with him. He fed into it and keeps it playing out. I don’t think he intentionally disappoints and gaslights me. Even after consistently doing it for decades! I honestly believe it is not in his head no matter how many fights we have over it.

When we were first dating, he knew how to ask me out, he surprised me by taking me out somewhere nice for my birthday. Although, looking back, I see how he did it so nonchalantly, so that I should think he wasn’t doing anything, that he had forgotten it was my birthday, that there was nothing special, but then he surprised me with the nice restaurant. He has a need to be ultra nonchalant. This has continued and became part of this bigger problem. He is too low key to the point of completely emotionally absent lol.

Now there is very much to this whole thing as to what and why I feel in it.
1. I know I am very blessed to have someone who loves and is devoted to me. He says this should be enough for me. And he’s right, I wish knowing that were enough for me. I feel very spoiled and wicked to be complaining at all. But this has been so lacking for me that I can’t help it.
2. He does not want to end the relationship, engages in discussions with me about what is wrong and how to fix it (how to give me what I want or I will give up on that and what we can do to make it work in any way), then he either doesn’t act like he said he would or he does act in a way that is so subtle I did not even pick up on what he was doing or so awkward because he is so nervous and uncomfortable. I am so sorry it came to this. I am so ashamed of this whole thing.
3. When I have become dysregulated (crying profusely, angry ranting, wanting to end the relationship to stop the pain, then self medicating which is self harm- having an emotional meltdown), he is cold, never comforted me, eggs me on to take me down farther, encouraged and even gave me what was harmful just to shut me up, didn’t care what harm it did to me. He didn’t get help for me or himself. He didn’t stop this.

We’ve been talking about if we are going to buy a house, currently just renting an apartment. He said maybe we’ll get a big house and each live on other sides of it. He said it like it’s a good idea, like he likes that idea better than divorcing. I said that is my biggest fear, like that would be the saddest of all endings for this relationship.

My mother and step dad spend their days in separate rooms mostly. My mother barely speaks to him civilly. I have learned the term persecutory object. It is a case of this. Being like her in this way is (and has always been because she has always been like this) my worst nightmare, and yet I have become her manifested in this ultra specific way. I am kind and respectful to him outside of this issue where I am a raging B. But, mostly, I hurt myself in this because I mostly turn it inward and self harm, then give in to him. He is definitely doing his part though.

I managed to not be verbally and emotionally abusive in the ways that were done to me in childhood, not done to my children, went the other way, was so loving and kind, would never be mean because I love them. But I became what I hate most only with him.

This video is potentially TRIGGERING
This is the science behind what is happening.
In my case, it is only rejection within this specific struggle over the intimacy issue. Neither of us are doing the extreme behaviors noted in the video. The worst part of my situation is that we are fighting and that I am being harmed with emotional dysregulation. The whole thing is very harmful for us both.

Sam Vaknin

I commend you for being so open and vulnerable. This is very deep.

I admit I don't know what the answer is. I can only tell you that I have always viewed myself as a broken person. My story is very different from yours, but I was left deeply damaged. My needs weren't met when I was growing up, and I got into one bad relationship after another.

I'm still a work in progress, but I had to look within to meet my needs. Given what you've shared, that sounds so trite, but I know it has worked for me.

You've shared that you want to stay in your marriage, and you have the right to make that choice. However, your husband is being emotionally abusive to you. It doesn't sound like he will ever be able to meet this deep and valid desire of yours. If he does, it will be a one and done and then he'll congratulate himself on meeting your need. And then possibly throw it back in your face that he has already done as asked if you ask again.

I may be stating the impossible and the obvious, but you need to find a way to let go of your deep (and valid) need and take your power back. You have given him way too much. If you don't, you run the risk of living the rest of your life in this hell.

I also ask you from the bottom of my heart to let your shame go. You have nothing to be ashamed of. Shame is soul crushing. Let it go.

Yes, it is very similar to the difference between the two political parties. It’s a lot like old Hollywood in that most of the writers and creators were Liberals and most of the studios were very Conservative. “I don’t want reality, I want the Magic”.

Some of the most talented like Barbara Stanwick who was conservative was able to transform and marry the two becoming one of the most highly respected of the performing arts that we can still enjoy her quality even now in the present. She was intelligent enough to recognize the value in both.