Trying to move forward

Thank you too.

That post of yours sums it up nicely.

Wasn't sure what else to say to that...

Here's another.

I think it’s important to better understand jealousy. I had a hard time with this myself because I did not understand that my older sister did not connect with other people the way I did. It’s also the unhealthy persons need to feel they have all the power and control and they feel threatened if they don’t have what you have. They are constantly insecure and they get angry about their own insecurities. So they tend to take that out on their partner.

Your wife’s desire to advertise herself and find guys she can use on the net or at bars/clubs is a big tell about her ego needing to find others she can use. That is how her friends are too. USERS and you can’t fix that.

I've been replaying my sin, my narcissistic injury, of looking at porn during my marriage.

The fact is, when my wife found my browsing history, it was because I was purposely negligent in deleting my history.

I was trying to provoke something. I was breaking at that point. At that time we were 2 years into consistent marriage counselling.

My wife had been very effectionate and physically interested in me until we got married.

Then, like a switch, it stopped.

Affection became very one sided. Interest in intimacy became very one sided.

I was straight up told:

My medications ruin my libido, and I have erotic dreams that give me orgasms so I don't need to be together physically.

She was stunningly beautiful. I told her, this is like living beside a bakery and being forced to be gluten free.

Every time she initiated, I responded, because... All of the above reasons.

When I initiated, if it resulted in sex, I was told:
Can it be quick?
Do I have to do anything?
Can I just lay there?
I'll give you 5 minutes and if you're not done, not my problem.
Just do what you have to do. Don't touch me too much.

Then, intermittently, there would be mind blowing sex.

Oh my God.... Did I ever grow resentful. We addressed this in counselling numerous times.

The first time I said, I need this, I have nowhere else to have this in my life and I want this with you, only you, she countered with, "Then maybe we should just divorce."

Then it became,dating her with enough originality, investment, planning, etc., would result in sex. Also, the slightest misstep at any point would also result in the night going off course and us requiring a do-over.

Once we had a family, corralling kids to bed, keeping them there, THEN pulling off a date night with no interruptions was required to get some physical interest.

And... Once in a while it worked.

Most times no. BY FAR, it didn't.

I was also doing most of the family work, and working, like always.

So, yes, I took the easy way out at times and looked at stuff online.

At the time she found my viewing history we had addressed this topic for over 10 years.

We had also gone, not counting during pregnancies, in excess of 12 months with no intimate contact despite my frequent requests and date attempts on at least three occasions. Three one-year periods of no intimacy, and little affection.

I think I injured her. I think I truly caused her a profound narcissistic injury. I also think a narcissist will induce situations where they will become injured then play the victim.

RDMercer

Please don’t blame yourself for being human. It’s not like you had a physical affair with another woman

Your wife was using sex to control you. She sounds sadistic tbh.

She was using sex abusively for at least ten years before porn came up.

She turned sex off like a switch as soon as you got married.

She was cruel and in bad mental health before porn.

Whatever porn did was nothing compared to whatever made her the way she was ever since you were married.

I am skeptical that porn injured her. I think it much more likely that she was secretly at peace with having a permanent cudgel to use against you.

Sometimes when people are disproportionally angry about something, it’s because they are guilty of whatever they accuse others of.

She was getting orgasms from erotic dreams? Please. She thinks she’ll tell BS bizarre stories and others will believe it. That’s not even a good story. Total BS.

And it’s entirely possible she was watching porn herself, to help achieving those orgasms “caused by dreams”. What a piece of work

Relationships are not supposed to be transactional. Sex should not be some kind of bargaining chip used for controlling someone.

It sounds like she uses affection and caring to control her children too. She is unable to respect the freedom and emotional well being of others to have their own identity and sense of self.

As a young couple in our 20s we were having sex about once a month, including those pleading 5 minute sessions.

There was always something, or some combination of things that kept us from being together.

Being given to minutes "finish" with no foreplay or anything created it's own issues. She complained sex was painful, and just wanted it over with.

Well... I didn't want to hurt her so I quit initiating so much. It's actually much bigger than that. I felt like I was assaulting her some of those times.

I had a similar issue around sex with my husband (now divorcing). It felt like humiliation. I sense this is strongly what you must have felt with your wife, too. The whole “just finish quick” thing was humiliating. Perhaps she did it intentionally to humiliate you. I always felt there was a S&M thing going on with us, only just psychological (not the way most do with leather and such). Emotional cruelty around sex causing humiliation.

“Sexual narcissism involves a self-centered pattern of sexual behavior. Sometimes this manifests as an inflated sense of sexual ability or sexual entitlement. Other times, it is overcompensation for sexual shame and low self-esteem. Either way, there is a tendency to manipulate others and a lack of empathy for how they may be affected by certain actions (and sometimes inactions).”

Narcissism IS an intimacy issue. I kept going to therapy, saying we have an intimacy issue. I suggest you read more and watch videos about sex with narcissists. Once I learned, I saw it in my relationship and understood. Then I got out.

There is something within you that kept you in it, and that is something to look at too. I’m not victim blaming. It is essential to look at what drew you in and kept you there. The science links it to your relationship with your parents and early childhood trauma. I had this. That’s why I was begging for crumbs.

Also, what your wife did with the occasional great sex is called intermittent reinforcement.

Given the right environment, you can and will get over this. I have a troubled sexual history with my ex wife too. It started out with stories of approximately (she was 24 at the time) 80 one night stands, a number of whom she had done all kind of bdsm like experiments with. I had been single for 8 years (I was 36 at the time) and was very insecure. You can imagine what this did to me. She started doing all these things to me, more so when I indicated I did not want this. When I stopped protesting, she stopped. For a few years we had a reasonably healthy sex life but the last three years (of a relationship that lasted 10 years) I went through the same, being granted only the sight of a strip of flesh for the larger part of the last year. It drove me crazy. I was even more insecure than before, not just about my skill but about the essence of who I am. But I do also remember that in our good moments, sex was awesome. It was what she did: to give me just enough to keep longing for more.
For me, at the surface, it was all about chores around the house: if I did this or that, then ther would be sex. Later I had to do something to maybe get some sex - she would often initiate and then turn me down in those months - and in the end she had realized that it took no more than undressing and changing into her pijamas to keep my hopes up. Often, if it came to sex, I too had the feeling I was assaulting her but honestly, I think that the manipulation and the mind games she played were more of an assault. It is OK to not be in the mood, even if that is for a longer time but even then, our ex wives could have handled this in a more respectful way. But they didn't, they deliberately chose to play their own game of thrones (yes, it is all about power).

And then, a year and a half after we broke up, I got into a relationship that lasted for almost a year. I never realized why I experienced fear during sex. I did know why I felt no connection. But as I did not realize there was a link between the physical pain I had experienced before and my fear of that moment, I did not discuss this with my therapist. Things got better and I eventually overcame my fear - also because I did feel an emotional connection rather then the transactionality of erstwhile -, without any specific therapy. I am not sure what the future will bring, I might experience the same fear and insecurity in a next relationship (if there will be any), I might not. But I know I can overcome this. And I am quite confident that you can too, if you ever give your trust to somebody and if you can overcome the emotions that come with the first steps.

Speaking largely from my experience and the way your story resonated with me, your ex wife used sexuality to manipulate you. In different ways than my ex wife did, but the intent was the same and sex is a powerful tool to achieve that goal. You did not injure her. She injured you.

Last year, in all the reading I was doing, I came across a book about covert passive aggressive narcissists that had a chapter on sex and the narcissist.

Your descriptions are pretty typical.

Here was my takeaway:

They may drop innuendos, but they rarely, if ever, initiate. They take no responsibility for the encounter, often expecting to be taken care of (almost like a child-yuck). They expect to get what they want out of it, so that can be their own pleasure, or if that doesn't work out, they can just flip it and let you know how inadequate you are as a partner. Abusing you emotionally is a good hit for them too.

Intimacy is so easy for them to weaponize, especially if they have a spouse that craves that connection and closeness. It's a potentially huge source of control and emotional abuse.

What you did in regard to porn isn't even worth mentioning in many people's books (mine included), but put a hash mark in your column if it makes you feel better. But how many hash marks are in her column for inappropriate things she did?

Mature relationships communicate and take the other person's feelings into consideration. With narcissists you don't get that. They seek control in all things, and maintain it at all costs. If they have you like a puppet on a string, then they're feeling like everything is okay. Intimacy is just one more area where good communication and give and take should be true, and a very important one at that. When are you ever that vulnerable with another human being?

There's a lot to heal from in this kind of mess. You definitely deserved more consideration, and you didn't do anything wrong or destructive. You're a healthy and normal guy who did something many very good men do regularly. So you left it there intentionally - sometimes something's got to give. Maybe that was just the point where you started taking your own power back.

Ok, the one piece of your puzzle I keep in my mind is that your wife has AD/HD. When someone has this challenge it definitely brings a challenge to the relationship. If a therapist doesn’t have knowledge about AD/HD therapy won’t treat the real challenge and even couples therapy will not help.

There has been an increase in diagnosing Adults with ADHD just in the past few years because it is being studied and better understood. Also people that have ADHD have often been misdiagnosed with bipolar disorder.

We have this wonderful resource called YouTube and if you ask about ADHD and even how this challenge affects sex in a relationship or in the person with ADHD there are actually answers. Also, many women that have ADHD go undiagnosed so they have challenges and behavior patterns that contribute to many of their challenges that can be better managed with the right help and medication.

I sat here this morning and listened to different individuals talk about AD/HD and the very real challenges it presents in someone. I think it’s important to take some time to sit and listen and develop a better understanding of what it means and how it affects relationships.

I did away with cable because it’s so expensive and have been learning about streaming. I stream Youtube and you can ask anything and get exposed to a wealth of information. Honestly, it’s better than just labeling others as narcissists and abusers. I really believe in the efforts to understand the whys better. Once you spend time listening to what is being learned, you end up having a better understanding. I think this is especially important if your partner has AD/HD and you have children.

I do find the behaviors you describe as “dysfunctional and at times toxic”. However, I also know how some behaviors can reflect a genuine condition a person can’t help and needs help learning how to work around it and manage it.

I have been listening to Gina Pera who is married to a Man that has it and how it went undiagnosed. We are talking about a man that is extremely intelligent yet this got missed? As a result Gina is trying to bring awareness so that people not only get diagnosed but helped so they can live a better quality life.

I have been married to a man that has ADHD and Dyslexia for going on 43 years. There are so many things discussed that hit home in terms of the challenges I have faced with his behavior patterns.

The truth is that therapy for individuals with this challenge can be hard to come by. Yet, the good thing is more awareness and individuals that are sharing information that means something instead of being left alone and confused.

So as I have mentioned before, invest some time learning. This talk given by Gina Pera is helpful and she has written a book. Her talk is about Adult ADHD & Relationships.

I also listened to Hannah Witton discuss the Impact of ADHD on sex and relationships. Very educational and helpful.

My post above is not about anything other than taking some time to educate yourself. It doesn’t mean someone should stay in a relationship with someone who has ADHD. It simply may be too much of a challenge. Plus in your case your wife self medicates with alcohol which adds another problem making things even worse and extra dysfunctional.

It’s important to learn also so you don’t fall into the self blaming trap.

"Ok, the one piece of your puzzle I keep in my mind is that your wife has AD/HD. When someone has this challenge it definitely brings a challenge to the relationship. If a therapist doesn’t have knowledge about AD/HD therapy won’t treat the real challenge and even couples therapy will not help."

I don't believe she has ADHD.

She, before we got married, had completed a Masters degree. She was very strong academically.

She sought ADHD medication as an off label solution for feeling chronically fatigued.

They're amphetamines.

I never, in all our history, had an inkling that she had ADD or ADHD. She went into the Dr office and questioned if all her anxiety symptoms could actually be ADD, failed the questionnaire about her ability to focus on tasks, and left with a prescription.


Why did I accept this anti sex behavior from her early in our marriage?

I had only dated three other girls. I didn't see myself as physically attractive. I always felt I could be loved, appreciated, be a good partner and parent, but not sexually desired.

I was also used to a chronic feeling of longing, which I equated with love.

So, I was pretty ripe for the picking. Being expected to do more, try harder, pursue her until she wanted me... That all fit with my image of myself.

I remember one argument when I said

I'm getting no affection, no compliments, and no sexual interest, and no sexual release. You're the only person I can turn to for this. What am I supposed to do?

"You wait."

I swear, that was the reply. That was after years of counselling and addressing these topics.

Also, the counselor said I was emotionally immature and sided with my wife that I had to do more and try harder.


RDMercer

I have a similar experience. The counselor did remain neutral but in the end, we both left the office in the conviction that everything that went wrong was my doing. That is what people like our ex wives do: manipulate and they are masters in their craft.

She really seems like a person who preyed on your insecurities.

Earlier you said she has ADD. Please know that ADD/ADHD has nothing to do with lack of intelligence.

I don't think I ever said she had ADD. I said she was medicated for it. I'm pretty sure I've said before there was never a sign of symptoms.

Education and intelligence aren't synonymous. The presence of ADD is separate from intelligence.

She completed a ton of education, and never displayed either an inability to focus, or hyper-fixation on a task, or being prone to fidget.

To have symptoms emerge in her 40s; inability to focus, difficulty following through with a task, etc...

Well.... Could that have been alcohol? No sleep schedule? Going 24hrs plus with not eating?

But she pursued the medications after reading about off label trials using them to treat fibro and chronic fatigue.

And again... Could the chronic fatigue be because she wasn't following the diet she was supposed to? Was drinking a lot of alcohol? Didnt drink any water Often? Often wasn't eating? Went days without leaving the house? Spent all night watching tiktoks and facetiming until 6am?

It’s more about having difficulty producing normal dopamine. So that tends to be why the self medicating begins. They can become addicted to anything that provides them with a dopamine boost. Like drinking and going clubbing as alcohol and music is known to raise dopamine levels. Also spending hours on the net and having difficulty sleeping

To echo Bill's words, your wife was abusive with sex. She used it as a weapon to control you. That's what my ex narc husband did to me too - intimacy went out the window as soon as we got married as well. We had sex maybe once per month, even though I regularly begged for more. There was always an excuse as to why we couldn't. And he stopped kissing me apart from when we had sex... there was no passion in our marriage, and I knew it was because he wanted to control me and upset me.

I agree with Divine. There is no way your wife was having orgasms while she slept, based on erotic dreams. Young boys/men are known to have wet dreams, but not women, and certainly not mature, older women. That's an outrageous lie that she fed you.

If you still feel any amount of guilt over the porn issue, it's only because she held this over your head for years and used it to beat up on you. I hope you let go of any remaining guilt, if there is any.

Any injury to herself is her own doing, and is not yours to own.