Trying to move forward

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Originally Posted by RDMercer You guys are all correct. I know that, so I keep fighting my emotions and urges. I likened being married to her to living beside a bakery and being gluten free. At some point you have to quit smelling the bread. As for unrequited love, this is it. I had other relationships before her but I ended them. Did you ever hear the saying, you don't lose if you don't stop trying? Well, with her I never stopped trying. Confronting this loss is very hard. I really long for unique interactions I had with her, inside jokes, whatever. It's just hard. I booked a counseling session next week.

Yes, you do lose even if you never stop trying because that "never stop trying" is the DENIAL of reality.....that is dysfunctional behavior.

So glad to hear you booked a counseling session next week

It’s admirable “to never stop trying” bettering yourself and improving your life.. It’s perfectly fine and in fact recommended to stop trying to change other people. If they want to improve, they will. But trying to do it for them isn’t going to work. “Never stop trying” to make others to do something or be someone they aren’t is a waste of time.

For the entire time we were together I never stopped trying to do better, to improve myself, to reach her, to have her feel validated.

That is part of being in this type of dysfunctional relationship. One person shoulders the bulk of the responsibility and the blame.

Yes, there are physical and personality things about her that are profoundly attractive to me. I am enormously attracted to her, and I've been conditioned for decades to try harder to have her, and have been intermittently reinforced with positive outcomes.

So.... Yeah..... That profound longing shows up sometimes.

I know this is like breaking an addiction.

It's not that I don't see these things, it's fighting against those feelings.

Also...

Also...

The comment about me not being able to be in a normal relationship without having to pursue someone.....

I think it might be the opposite.

There's a woman my wife and I knew for about 15 years. She's about 10 years divorced. Last weekend she let me know she'd appreciate my company to watch some Marvel movies, or Fast and Furious, or just to come for a visit, a meal...

This woman is just so CHILL. She's just.... calm, easygoing, and just easy to be around.

Holy jeeeeez I am fighting acting on that right now! She is SO easy to be around.

It's just so appealing to be around non drama.

I shouldn't date ANYONE until my head is sorted, and I sure wasn't going to act while in such a low state of mind.

Oh I didn’t say you won’t be able to date or that you need to date now at all. I meant you could have some difficulty if you got used to chasing a dream. I am glad to hear that you are enjoying company of low drama people. I’d love to be wrong and find out you enjoy easy going healthy interactions!!!!!

Dating right now wouldn’t be wise for many reasons. You could enjoy friendships though

Oh yeah it is like an addiction. The strongest attractions are often for the most wrong people.

You could be attracted to other women when time is right

((((RD))))

Glad you made an appointment. It sounds like it might be good to clear your mind that way.

A bit of what you've written recently sounds very much like codependency (which is a common dynamic in narcissistic relationships, not just alcoholic ones). Do you possibly identify as such? I was just reading the "Undependence" chapter of Codependent No More that talks about codependent's emotional dependency on the other person. All the things we do and don't do to earn and keep that person. All the things we do to try and make the relationship what we think it should be, and what we want it to be. Not saying that you are this, but some of it feels so familiar to me

Oh yeah....

Codependent AF.

At least you recognize it.

Have you read the book? If not, I highly recommend it. Changed my perspective about my spouse, the relationship, what I was doing, what I should be doing, what he wasn't doing, etc. Clarity.

There use to also be a free pdf version of the 12 step work book somewhere online. That's also great for sorting out your brain. Walking through the exercises was difficult but very eye opening for me.

Learning to detach is magic.

If you haven't been in something like this, it is hard to explain how much you lack confidence in your abilities.

At one point my wife told me, "If we come up against something and you can't figure it out, then I know we're really screwed. When there's a problem with the house or a car and you can't solve it, I don't know who to go to because I don't know how anyone else can."

That was the ONLY time she said something of that nature to me. That was breadcrumbing, after tons of examples of taking me apart for my incompetence at anything.

Then, when we have an interaction that is a twist, a variation, of the truth, it unsettles me so much for a long time after. It really leaves me worried about my ability to do anything, especially lead and guide and parent my kids.

It's not fair to them, but I often WANT to say, "Are you sure you made the right choice? Are you sure you're OK here with me?"

They need confidence and competence, and they need someone to actually validate reality to them.

Total mind-F.

RDM.

I found after I left & bought my farm, there isn't much fixing or figuring out what needs to be done I can't do....some mtself if I gave the tools & muscle or find the right person to hire. Being only one person sometimes things that need fixed have to bubble up on the priority list before I do them but it is ok.

I had never even lived alone before in my life & I found out 11 years after I left that he was sure I would be back in 2 years....I never looked back & I definitely never went back. Confidence grew the more I (MYSELF) successfully handled life on my own & found people I TRUSTED for suggestions when I didn't know the right people to hire. I have been holding down my 10 acre farm alone for 16 years now. No kids but I started off with 7 dogs, added my horse later & 2 cats. Now I am down to a dog & 2 cats until after I get more repairs done to my farm. Let yourself be free to grow on your own & get your wife's voice out of your head. She is living there rent free & it isn't good for any of you. Seriously even though I had a career as a computer design engineer while I was married, I did more growing up at 54 when I was alone than I ever did in those previous 54 years. Give yourself the chance to grow & you will be a very good dad

You didn't get to that place overnight, it took years of gaslighting and breadcrumbing to get to that point where you have trouble trusting yourself. It will take time to go the other way too. Even if you're not always right, you have more to gain by looking to yourself rather than looking to others. That kind of repeated practice is how you build confidence.

Fwiw, I've found journaling to be helpful in learning to trust myself again. For many years I'd let things go quickly and then not think about them again. Noting things in a journal is a concrete way to not conveniently forget the truth. It's amazing how I've been programmed to move on and let thoughtless or mean behaviors slide. The journal is a semi-neutral third party that shows clearly where trust and distrust belong.

You probably already know that you make good, thoughtful decisions, so let that be your guide. In time, her influence will fade and your confidence will come back, and most likely even better than before.

This kind of abuse takes the mind F cake.

They mostly need to feel safe. They don’t get that with your wife.

Parenting is a challenge, especially with teenagers.

You can always search YouTube if you have questions.

Ending a marriage is hard emotionally and financially. No one has all the answers or how to progress forward.

Often people carry their own perception of a relationship that doesn’t see the reality of the dysfunction taking place. When reality is revealed it can leave someone not only shocked but very confused and even feeling like a failure or it’s their fault.

In your case, your wife developed a problem with alcohol. Had your wife been also taking Xanex or some other Benzo medication? Combining the two can increase hallucinations and psychotic episodes and memory loss as well as boughts of anger and strange mood shifts.

@RDMercer how are things going? You have been quiet.

I'm just coping.

Ok... My daughter's therapist was the one who alerted us to covert narcissism as a personality disorder that she saw on display during appointments my wife attended with our daughter. That therapist refused to gave my wife attend sessions, and told me this after we separated.

Since then, me and the kids have answered 50 question screening questionnaires for covert NPD traits in mom/spouse.

We each, separately, scored her a 47/50.

My counselor has referred me to resources, including Dr Ramini and Darren McGee. Again, the more I learn, the more the dots connect.

Yes, along with this there was the "poop cocktail" as our son called it: alcohol, SSRIs, Vyvanse, Xanax (which she had stopped taking, but had the final bottles filled and then took them periodically), messed up sleep, etc.

If she is truly a covert narcissist, then she has a weak personality, and shapes to match her source of supply. Which would be WHY I felt such profound love and connection early on.

In time, it gets harder to do. And as the source of supply (me), gets more extended and gets less in return, the narc latches onto a new supply. They don't want a deep relationship and superficial external compliments are gold. They have to justify all this in their minds.

So... In the final two years, my wife said and did more and more outrageous things , and flat denied that they happened. When the kids voiced the same things, the explanation became that I'd manipulated the kids. She entrenched herself with two shallow women who encouraged her to go on dating apps because of the constant positive attention from men she would receive. These are her "flying monkeys".

I've also found out she was regularly buying prepaid visa gift cards with groceries, gas, and regular shopping, as a way to hide what she was spending since years.

She also had financial support from man/men before and when she left.

And.... She is the only person I've ever experienced love with. The only person I ever planned a future with or adjusted my plans for. Today a friend sent me a FB post from her with her flying monkeys out at lunch. She looks absolutely incredible.

And I'm this broke, broken piece of middle aged meat that is trying NOT to mourn the loss of my wife, the woman who also callously discarded our kids.

I'm in a huge amount of pain, while always trying to tell myself it isn't that bad, others have had worse, and trying to support and validate the kids... And validate the kids without appearing to slander their mom.

I have felt like there is nothing to look forward to since years. I'm just going through the motions of life, and trying to hang on, and trying to give my kids some positivity.


So... That's it.

((((RD)))) I’m sorry as I can see that your self esteem really took a beating. It’s very hard to wrap ones mind around a narcissistic addict/alcoholic. It’s hard for both the suffering spouse and the children.

Please keep in mind that your wife is just playing and using these men. This is not a loving caring woman. This has nothing to do with you or your children’s worth. This is not your fault either.

Her drinking and drug use is going to rob her of her looks. This price will be paid as she moves through her fifties.

It’s going to take you time to grieve the loss of the illusion you had of her.

Are you moving to get the divorce? Once that’s done it will help you feel freer.

I am sorry. You aren’t broken. You are fulfilling one of the most honorable role, role of a parent. What she does or doesn’t do is of no importance.

Honestly I recommend you stop looking at her pictures and agonize about her looks. There are ton of incredible looking women who don’t use men for money and don’t discard their kids. Her looks have no special meaning or value. It’s not like she accomplished PhD in Harvard or discovered cure for cancer. She got good looks. Boohoo. Who cares really? And some desperate men will send money to women who don’t even look good. Plenty of good looking women are decent human beings. Focus on human qualities, not her looks. She’s not a good person.

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And validate the kids without appearing to slander their mom.

SLANDER is to tell lies about someone....I am sure nothing you tell your kids about her is a lie. They have the right to know the truth. They can make up their own mind what they think about her.

After I left my husband, I told my daughter the truth about all that was happening since I knew my ex & his parents were only going to tell lies. Let her decide what to believe & I was actually surprised to learn the insighg she had. Kids are good at seeing what is really going on

"Honestly I recommend you stop looking at her pictures and agonize about her looks. There are ton of incredible looking women who don’t use men for money and don’t discard their kids. "

I totally agree.

I don't know how her friends can abide someone who would do the things she's done. I can't imagine what story she's telling to the men in her life.

Our daughter told her one of her conditions for entering counselling with her mom was that she cut ties with her friends that influenced her on these things. Well, pictures on FB with her friends and no contact with her kids.

A friend sent me the FB pictures today, and it stirred a bunch of stuff in me. Yes, she's attractive, but she also intermittently "got" me in profound ways. I felt very attuned with her for short intermittent times.... Which is a hallmark of being reeled in for more "supply".

My health hadn't been good for weeks either. I honestly think it's a stress response. It's like tendinitis... Everywhere. My wrists, forearms, shoulders, neck, knees, low back, everything is flared up. I've gotten older, but my health has always been good, and I've stayed darn strong, and able to work hard. The crash and loss of that is getting me down too.

And the costs, and the planning.... Trying to figure out meals and gas on a very tight budget, and knowing a divorce will financially wreck me, and the kids chances for college.

I can't believe the selfishness of it all.

And I'm mourning her. And realizing she was a chameleon for years and years.

The pain sounds searing. I'm really sorry.

What if you ask people not to send you pictures or updates?

I agree with Bill about sending pictures. I don’t really understand why they send you her pictures. Unless you ask for it. They need to stop it

I don’t believe their chances for college are doomed. That’s just not true. Plenty of people attend college without having much money, having divorced parents or broke parents or no parents. First two years community college. One can pay for it by working and taking classes part time.

Remaining years use any of the options: 1. Work full time take part time classes and take a loan 2. Attend college full time and work part time to pay for part of it and for the rest take a loan and parents take parent loan 3. Work and save money by living at home. Then use that money for college in a few years etc

All of the things people assume they need are just wants, not needs. One doesn’t need big houses or even small houses or any houses. Big yards. Bunch of cars. Tuition paid by parents. Full time college living in dorms. Living in fancy areas. These are nice things. But these aren’t requirements for success and happiness

Your kids and you could be just fine. You’ll be all right

(((Hugs)))

I seriously wish I knew something wise to say, but don't.

Getting your head wrapped around the subtle abuses is very, very hard. It can take a lot of time.

When it comes to covert narcissism, there's such a strange gap between what was real, and what was merely perception. For so long, I (dumbly) assumed that dh and I were on the same page. Then the reality comes to light that wasn't true. The covert narcissist plays you by omission, by NOT correcting your perceptions, but by using them against you.

And the conditionalness of what they do is so painful to come to terms with. The narc doesn't love someone for who they are, they give positive reenfocement for giving the narc what they want. Oh the trauma bond...

A friend once told me that getting your "reality goggles" is the best and worst day of your life. You now see the truth, which hurts but validates, but you can't unsee it for even a little while, which hurts just as bad or worse.

Healing takes a lot of time Especially when the situation is so messy.

I'm sorry to hear that you're having all that physical pain. Please take care of yourself. You deserve to be treated kindly and gently, and do that for yourself if no one else will. Got some epsom salts for a good bath maybe?

Hang in there.

Stress could cause lots of health problems. Make sure you get some rest and relaxation when can, see your doctor, take vitamins and try to keep your stress under control. I know easier said than done. And I know we disagree on this but I don’t think being in a limbo and kind of between things is good for you and the kids. Some type of closure might be better, but that’s just my opinion