[Revenge Tour]

I hope all of you had a Merry Christmas. This is how I spent mine.....

I had a nice morning with my wife and daughter. We opened presents and simply had a nice time. Then we drove an hour to my mom's and had a nice visit. After that, I went to my son's place to give him his present. This is where it turned south.....

My son is not welcome in my house. After years of lies, threats, intimidation, stealing and whatever else, I kicked him out. Yes, he's my blood and I love him but I also like him not living with us.

He works a part-time job at a moving company and is struggling financially. To supplement his income, he donates plasma. His "plan" is to save up for a computer and get his license to sell insurance. He tells me this is what his friends do and is convinced this is his meal ticket. Okay, fine. I have told him countless times that if he wants to sell insurance, great. However, his approach to get there sucks. I told him (for the hundredth time) he should look at the trades (plumbing, roofing, carpentry, electrician) as they need people and the pay would be far better than what he is doing right now. That, of course, led to an argument. I told him I simply don't understand why he can't pursue something else while still focusing on his insurance selling goal. While he refused to give me an answer, I know what it is. He's lazy.

During our chat I told him I had jobs throughout the years that I didn't like but I did what I had to do to get by. I told him that sometimes in life you're not going to like your job, the people you work with and the people you work for. He's only 23-years-old and he wants a cushy job right now with a nice paycheck. I reminded him EVERYBODY wants that but life simply does not work that way.

I have done so much for him. I gave him the car he drives. I recently put a new battery and headlight in it. I pay for his phone service. I have gone SO WAY above and beyond for him it'd make your head spin.

I'm not expecting any advice, criticism, accolades, etc. by posting this. I just wanted to air it out as I'm pretty furious with him. Like I said, I love him but I keep him at arm's length. Hopefully, one day, he'll "get it".

[divine1966]

It’s hard. Isn’t it?

Sometimes it is what it is. One of my stepdaughters is infuriating with her life choices. Periodically my husband still advises her on things, it usually ends bad. Even when she asks for advice, she doesn’t like to hear it. When they become adults, there’s little we could do in terms of changing how they do things. We also keep her at arm length because it always ends bad when we don’t.

He’ll find his ways eventually.

I commend you for not enabling him. It’s hard but it does adult kids no good when they are enabled

[Revenge Tour]

Thanks, d.

I try not to enable him anyway. Sure, I help out with the basic car repair or a few dollars on his birthday and Christmas. But just giving him money at will just isn't going to happen. He's a young, strong man with no wife, kids, responsibilities, etc. He could be making a ton of money right now but he'd rather coast and wait for opportunity to come a knockin'. And we both know how likely that is.

Thanks for the response. All my best to you and your situation as well.

[ArmorPlate108]

You can lead a horse to water....

Have to agree that willful people don't take advice. In fact, from my experience, they usually end up going in the opposite direction.

I know you said you weren't asking for advice, but perhaps it would be an interesting experiment to refrain from giving him advice and see what happens. Some people make a habit out of depending on advice they can ignore from someone close to them. It's a weird way they function in order to not take responsibility. My H does this-- if I'm talking about a problem he has, in his mind that gives me ownership of his problem and let's him off the hook to a great extent. It's counterintuitive and doesn't actually make rational sense, but it is a thing with some people.

You love your son, no doubt about it. He'll get where he's going eventually, as frustrating as it is at times.

[unaluna]

The occupations you suggest would have him making constantly judgments, choices and decisions as he plies the trade. Selling insurance, not so much. Is he lazy or does he have a learning disability? It just seems like something is missing.

[Revenge Tour]

Originally Posted by ArmorPlate108

You can lead a horse to water....

Have to agree that willful people don't take advice. In fact, from my experience, they usually end up going in the opposite direction.

I know you said you weren't asking for advice, but perhaps it would be an interesting experiment to refrain from giving him advice and see what happens. Some people make a habit out of depending on advice they can ignore from someone close to them. It's a weird way they function in order to not take responsibility. My H does this-- if I'm talking about a problem he has, in his mind that gives me ownership of his problem and let's him off the hook to a great extent. It's counterintuitive and doesn't actually make rational sense, but it is a thing with some people.

You love your son, no doubt about it. He'll get where he's going eventually, as frustrating as it is at times.

Interestingly.... I never bring any of this up (advice as it were) until he initiates the conversation. What I mean by that is if he's talking to me in front of someone, he's all nice and "normal". However, one-on-one he gives me the whole "I'm depressed and here's why" routine. I try to be a positive influence on him and point him in the right direction but, as you read earlier, it falls on deaf ears.

What is really sad, is ANY interaction I have with him, whether five minutes or two hours, it is GUARANTEED this will come up and we are not supporting him enough and the whole guilt thing. It is so tiring.

[Revenge Tour]

Originally Posted by unaluna

The occupations you suggest would have him making constantly judgments, choices and decisions as he plies the trade. Selling insurance, not so much. Is he lazy or does he have a learning disability? It just seems like something is missing.

Hi una.... my son is smart. In fact he's so smart, he's slick or at least tries to be (if that makes any sense). He is very good at analytics. When he was younger and baseball was our bond, he could recite stats, rosters, standings, scores and whatever else as far as Major League Baseball goes. To my knowledge he still follows it pretty religiously.

He's more than capable of not only performing those previously mentioned jobs but a multitude of others. He's just lazy. I remember getting so mad at him when he was a teenager. We'd get two or three inches of snow and I'd ask him to shovel our driveway (which isn't big at all). He'd put a lame effort into it then say he was tired. Then if his buddies came around to play basketball, POOF, no more tired. There are a million more examples of his laziness but I just wanted to give you a snapshot.

[unaluna]

He could be a computer programmer.

[Revenge Tour]

Originally Posted by unaluna

He could be a computer programmer.

I completely agree. When he was younger and before our relationship got really bad, he said he wanted to work with computers. He was a "techie" and liked that kind of thing. However, he is fixated on the whole insurance thing. I think he sees it as easy money (and it's not) and his friends are currently selling insurance so there's an inclusivity factor as well.

[Tart Cherry Jam]

I think he needs to discover that insurance selling is no easy money for himself. He is also suffering from composition fallacy.
From Wikipedia's article about it: "If someone stands up from their seat at a cricket match, they can see better. Therefore, if everyone stands up, they can all see better."
But in reality nobody will see better if everyone stands up. If everybody starts selling insurance, there will be insane competition for potential clients and your son won't make money.

[Open Eyes]

23 is still young and it’s not unusual to not have a set path in terms of making a living. Actually, it’s good to encourage him to get involved with insurance where he takes classes and gets a license to sell insurance. There is actually different jobs in the insurance field and he may end up finding a job he does like in that field.

His brain is not yet fully developed and this final part of his brain is important in terms of having more ability to form structural executive decisions. His engaging in any training can be a plus and should be encouraged and supported.

Did your son go to college?

Be careful about labeling your son as lazy. He is intelligent and needs time to explore to see what can be a good match for him in this working world.

[Open Eyes]

My son is not welcome in my house. After years of lies, threats, intimidation, stealing and whatever else, I kicked him out. Yes, he's my blood and I love him but I also like him not living with us.

These are typically methods of avoidance and an effort to distance from being controlled. This tends to pop up in the teen years as part of development and pier pressure challenges.

Not finishing the shoveling of snow in the driveway doesn’t always equate to laziness as much as boredom.

Actually getting involved with insurance can be a positive. Insurance is very much a part of many aspects of our lives. Insurance is a necessary evil and designed to make a profit even though it is thought of as protection should something go wrong. However, what is learned and constantly calculated is risk.

There are people that constantly look at and calculate the statistical risks that are behind the different insurance packages that are sold in all kinds of areas. It’s big business.

[Revenge Tour]

Originally Posted by Tart Cherry Jam

I think he needs to discover that insurance selling is no easy money for himself. He is also suffering from composition fallacy.
From Wikipedia's article about it: "If someone stands up from their seat at a cricket match, they can see better. Therefore, if everyone stands up, they can all see better."
But in reality nobody will see better if everyone stands up. If everybody starts selling insurance, there will be insane competition for potential clients and your son won't make money.

I get what you're saying.

[Revenge Tour]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

23 is still young and it’s not unusual to not have a set path in terms of making a living. Actually, it’s good to encourage him to get involved with insurance where he takes classes and gets a license to sell insurance. There is actually different jobs in the insurance field and he may end up finding a job he does like in that field.

His brain is not yet fully developed and this final part of his brain is important in terms of having more ability to form structural executive decisions. His engaging in any training can be a plus and should be encouraged and supported.

Did your son go to college?

Be careful about labeling your son as lazy. He is intelligent and needs time to explore to see what can be a good match for him in this working world.

My son has been kicked out of three schools growing up so college was never on the horizon. I think he had the intelligence, he just never had the discipline.

I'm not sure if you read my original post but I have encouraged him to pursue whatever he wants countless times. If he wants to sell insurance, go for it. If he wants to work at a grocery store, go for it. I couldn't care less what he does. As long as it's legal and he's happy, that's what I care about.

I don't dispute your observation that my son is intelligent. That's actually why it's so frustrating. He could be doing better for himself instead of the sob stories that I hear every time I interact with him. While I agree he needs "time to explore to see what can be a good match for him in this working world", I don't see that as a green light to simply continue what he's doing until his ship comes in. His approach is clearly not working. As I stated earlier, sometimes you have to work those jobs you don't like, with people you don't like, for people you don't like. That's life. At 23-years-old, he wants to bypass all that and have everything fall into his lap with minimal effort. So, yes, lazy.

[Revenge Tour]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

These are typically methods of avoidance and an effort to distance from being controlled. This tends to pop up in the teen years as part of development and pier pressure challenges.

Not finishing the shoveling of snow in the driveway doesn’t always equate to laziness as much as boredom.

Actually getting involved with insurance can be a positive. Insurance is very much a part of many aspects of our lives. Insurance is a necessary evil and designed to make a profit even though it is thought of as protection should something go wrong. However, what is learned and constantly calculated is risk.

There are people that constantly look at and calculate the statistical risks that are behind the different insurance packages that are sold in all kinds of areas. It’s big business.

Not shoveling snow was simply a microcosm of an example of his laziness. There were a truckload of other things as well (basic chores and work ethic).

I'm not disputing the need for insurance sales, analytics, risk assessment, adjusters, and whatever else the insurance business offers. I agree they're all necessary. I'm just saying his approach to getting there is flawed. He wants to sell insurance yesterday. Life simply doesn't work that way and at 23-years-old he doesn't want to hear it. That's where his immaturity comes into play.

There are plenty of people in their 30s, 40s, 50s and beyond that aren't happy with their careers. I'm not saying he should just throw his hands up and accept the hand that he has been dealt. What I am saying is he needs to reassess his approach and accept life as it comes and adjust as necessary. That's the part he doesn't want to hear. He's not about hard work. He's about I want it now and it's unfair that I don't have it.

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by Revenge Tour

Not shoveling snow was simply a microcosm of an example of his laziness. There were a truckload of other things as well (basic chores and work ethic).

I'm not disputing the need for insurance sales, analytics, risk assessment, adjusters, and whatever else the insurance business offers. I agree they're all necessary. I'm just saying his approach to getting there is flawed. He wants to sell insurance yesterday. Life simply doesn't work that way and at 23-years-old he doesn't want to hear it. That's where his immaturity comes into play.

There are plenty of people in their 30s, 40s, 50s and beyond that aren't happy with their careers. I'm not saying he should just throw his hands up and accept the hand that he has been dealt. What I am saying is he needs to reassess his approach and accept life as it comes and adjust as necessary. That's the part he doesn't want to hear. He's not about hard work. He's about I want it now and it's unfair that I don't have it.

He might just have to learn the hard way. At least he’s not planning to be a you tuber. That’s another crazy trend nowadays

[Revenge Tour]

Originally Posted by divine1966

He might just have to learn the hard way. At least he’s not planning to be a you tuber. That’s another crazy trend nowadays

I have pretty much accepted he will have to learn on his own. I can only give so many pep talks and I'm drained at this point.

I have heard about these social media "stars" that make a lot of money doing whatever. Meh. To each their own I suppose. It's not really my thing either but if people make an honest living doing that, cool. I just don't know how that works.

[Open Eyes]

Has your son ever been tested for Attention deficit or possibly being on the spectrum?

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by Revenge Tour

I have pretty much accepted he will have to learn on his own. I can only give so many pep talks and I'm drained at this point.

I have heard about these social media "stars" that make a lot of money doing whatever. Meh. To each their own I suppose. It's not really my thing either but if people make an honest living doing that, cool. I just don't know how that works.

Out of thousands of people one makes money on you tube. The rest don’t. You have to be very savvy and talented in something to get people to pay you money. And you need to invest in the beginning so you have to have capital to start. It’s like everyone will be in NFL because they play in their yard, no they won’t

[Discombobulated]

It’s tough when our adult kids flounder and lose motivation. Really tough. I’m so sorry Christmas went the way it did for you. There can be so much loaded onto having a nice day but of course it’s just a day and situations are still as they were.

You’re not asking for advice so I’m not giving it, but I think your idea to give yourself a rest from advising him sounds sensible, you’ve given him your thoughts, it’s his choice what he does with it. Our kids individuate and that isn’t always the smooth transition we hope it’ll be. Hugs to you all.

[eskielover]

I have a personal experience with someone who sounds similar to your son. Sadly I was married to him for 33 years before I finally walked out. Back in 1974 when I met him in college there was no diagnosis for ASD or Aduld ADD.

I saw red flags before the wedding which was big. He always bragged about how smart he was, his high IQ & how well he did in high school but he barely passed his Computer Science major for his BS degree. The excuse he gave was that he was working & didn't waste time doing work or studying in classes where he "knew" he was smarter than the professor. So getting hired with a low GPA outta college was tough & the company he wanted hired by wouldn't hire him. He was mad at them because as he said, my GPA doesn't reflect how capable I am. I was mad at him & let him know tgat his crappy GPA was a direct reflection of his crappy attitude. Those 33 years all reflected that same bad attitude until I could take him destroying my own life no longer. At age 54 we were in therapy together & an attitude topic came up & I dumped everything in that session & our T basically said my H (at that time) had the emotional maturity of a 13 year old.

I left soon after that when I sold the family house I inherited & had the $ to leave. That was 16 years ago & using his emotional immaturity & his diagnosed adult ADD & tge other symptoms of ASD that seemed to my T's where I moved to, to be very much possible. He lost everything I walked away from because of the fight he was giving me about getting divorced. Come to find out, he was sure that a divorce would make him look like a failure....but losing everything he owned wouldn't? His mind does not function normally & until I realized why, I EXPECTED him to act like a normal intelligent person he claimed to be. He never learned the hard way. He is still living on overdraft coverage & credit he only pays minimum on & has made some major STUPID decisions that I have had to hire lawyers to resolve even after the divorce is final. Lots more to this.....but the point is, no matter how smart they are or how lazy they look to us, there may very well be some underlying mental condition that is causing their brain to short circut from how we expect. Worth it to have a knowledgable professional assess at this point so he & you can have actual realistic expectations or know for sure it isn't because of those reasons.

[Revenge Tour]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

Has your son ever been tested for Attention deficit or possibly being on the spectrum?

He was diagnosed with depression years ago. He was on all kinds of medication when he was a teenager. I truly believe it made him worse.

[Revenge Tour]

Originally Posted by Discombobulated

It’s tough when our adult kids flounder and lose motivation. Really tough. I’m so sorry Christmas went the way it did for you. There can be so much loaded onto having a nice day but of course it’s just a day and situations are still as they were.

You’re not asking for advice so I’m not giving it, but I think your idea to give yourself a rest from advising him sounds sensible, you’ve given him your thoughts, it’s his choice what he does with it. Our kids individuate and that isn’t always the smooth transition we hope it’ll be. Hugs to you all.

Discombobulated simply rules!

[Revenge Tour]

Originally Posted by eskielover

I have a personal experience with someone who sounds similar to your son. Sadly I was married to him for 33 years before I finally walked out. Back in 1974 when I met him in college there was no diagnosis for ASD or Aduld ADD.

I saw red flags before the wedding which was big. He always bragged about how smart he was, his high IQ & how well he did in high school but he barely passed his Computer Science major for his BS degree. The excuse he gave was that he was working & didn't waste time doing work or studying in classes where he "knew" he was smarter than the professor. So getting hired with a low GPA outta college was tough & the company he wanted hired by wouldn't hire him. He was mad at them because as he said, my GPA doesn't reflect how capable I am. I was mad at him & let him know tgat his crappy GPA was a direct reflection of his crappy attitude. Those 33 years all reflected that same bad attitude until I could take him destroying my own life no longer. At age 54 we were in therapy together & an attitude topic came up & I dumped everything in that session & our T basically said my H (at that time) had the emotional maturity of a 13 year old.

I left soon after that when I sold the family house I inherited & had the $ to leave. That was 16 years ago & using his emotional immaturity & his diagnosed adult ADD & tge other symptoms of ASD that seemed to my T's where I moved to, to be very much possible. He lost everything I walked away from because of the fight he was giving me about getting divorced. Come to find out, he was sure that a divorce would make him look like a failure....but losing everything he owned wouldn't? His mind does not function normally & until I realized why, I EXPECTED him to act like a normal intelligent person he claimed to be. He never learned the hard way. He is still living on overdraft coverage & credit he only pays minimum on & has made some major STUPID decisions that I have had to hire lawyers to resolve even after the divorce is final. Lots more to this.....but the point is, no matter how smart they are or how lazy they look to us, there may very well be some underlying mental condition that is causing their brain to short circut from how we expect. Worth it to have a knowledgable professional assess at this point so he & you can have actual realistic expectations or know for sure it isn't because of those reasons.

Wow, eskie. You sure had (have?) your hands full. Who knew? It sounds like you went through a years-long emotional roller coaster as well. Yes, it's exhausting and so frustrating.

As far as a professional assessment goes, we have exhausted every resource you could possibly imagine. Countless doctors, programs (even including a military school for a few months), court orders, etc. There is truly nothing new to try. He knows what he's doing too. When we would go to his weekly court-appointed mental health hearings, he was a complete angel in front of the judge but on the way home in the car he was all about F you.

This one is on him. I know what he truly wants. He simply wants to do what he's doing (working here and there) and have me give him cash when he needs it. Uh.... no. I have thought about him doing things around the house but then, he's not welcome here. When he lived with us, things would come up missing or get destroyed. It's a shame but I just can't trust him.

[eskielover]

Originally Posted by Revenge Tour

Wow, eskie. You sure had (have?) your hands full. Who knew? It sounds like you went through a years-long emotional roller coaster as well. Yes, it's exhausting and so frustrating.

As far as a professional assessment goes, we have exhausted every resource you could possibly imagine. Countless doctors, programs (even including a military school for a few months), court orders, etc. There is truly nothing new to try. He knows what he's doing too. When we would go to his weekly court-appointed mental health hearings, he was a complete angel in front of the judge but on the way home in the car he was all about F you.

This one is on him. I know what he truly wants. He simply wants to do what he's doing (working here and there) and have me give him cash when he needs it. Uh.... no. I have thought about him doing things around the house but then, he's not welcome here. When he lived with us, things would come up missing or get destroyed. It's a shame but I just can't trust him.

I get it....no matter what their "issue is" they are still responsible for their behavior. Best thing I ever did for myself was to leave....it was my only way to get sanity & peace into my life. We have to make those decisions based on what is best for us