What are you willing to overlook in the name of friendship?

I’ve got a question for the adults out there. No offense to the teens, but I’m curious as to what you’re willing to overlook in a friendship. What is the breaking point? When is it that you start dodging the phone calls and are suddenly busy every time an outing is planned?

For example friend Fred: Fred is a co-worker that is pleasant to be around, he has a good sense of humor and you enjoy similar activities. You’ve known Fred for 5 years and have never had a problem. Fred and his wife get along well with you and your husband; you enjoy playing cards, going to movies, going out to dinner, etc.

One day it comes up in conversation that Fred has a child that you didn’t know about, he has nothing to do with the child because he can’t stand the mother of the child. Child lives about an hour away, he doesn’t see her, speak to her, send a card for birthdays or holidays. To him the child no longer exists, in fact he says if he passed her on the street he wouldn’t even know her.

Now this is one of my zero tolerance issues. I have an extremely difficult time being civil to the man. Company function coming up soon and I don’t know how I’m going to deal with it. A third party (who also used to go out socially with us and is also a co-worker) asked what the problem was, I told her. She has a different take, believes that none of this is any of my business and I’m just being “holier than thou.”

So I’d like to know your opinion, what things are you willing to over look in the name of tranquility? Other issues that I “am just being difficult” are things like driving drunk and domestic violence. I do argue the point that DWI is MY business/problem because I might be on the road that day. :Noooo:

Growing up with a father and a mother who hate each other and fight all the time can be far more harmful to a childes self a stem and mental out look on relationships then not having a father around at all. I only wish that my step dads were not around when i was a child for that reason . I know that I suffer today from the mistakes of the pass . I am a loner and cant be around anyone who fights or yells and I have had no male friends at all in my life . I have a big dislike and distrust of men even though I am one .My childhood was a living hell full of fighting yelling and beatings .

So you tell me would I have been better off without a father around. A bad relationship between a mother and father can hurt the kids much much more in my opinion

I think all of us have some moral or ethical boundaries that we are not willing to compromise on, and find it difficult to accept others who do cross them. Rightly or wrongly, in regards to the issue you raised, I think I would feel similarly. I am also just as strongly against drink driving, violence of any sort, and emotional / mental abuse of anyone. I just can't tolerate those who believe those things are 'okay'.

I can't think of other things I object strongly to right now, but I am sure there are many.

It came up in conversation with Fred, or with someone else? Did he say that the child no longer exists for him, and if so, did he say that with anger, or disdain, or sorrow, or what? I don't feel I have enough information about it to make a judgement. I can imagine all kinds of different possibilities.

:Good-Post: I agree that more is needed to know. My girls dad has popped in and out of their lives since they were 5 and when he first refused contact, I had serious serious issues with my oldest--bed wetting, panic attacks (school called me cuz she was afraid she was going to swallow her tongue), she couldn't listen to music that mentioned dad's, at age 8 she started wondering if she wasn't smart enough, skinny enough, pretty enough, etc for him to love her. Then he popped back in, took them to NC when they hadn't seen or heard from him in 3 years, then disappeared again. So I, too have strong feelings on it. However, I think without knowing all, it's hard to say. Not much help, I know, but on something so personal, it's hard to judge. The other issues you mentioned, I'm right there with you. Those are things I can't "agree to disagree" on with someone.

There are going to be things you are not aware of, you would not of been told everthing. I would back off and leave him with it as my mum says you cant clean up the world.

Interesting thread.....

Here is what I try to do in my life with friends.....I try to realize that if we do not agree on how family relationships should be, it is not up to me to judge someone as to their decisions in how they live their lives. We don't live their lives, we don't think their thoughts, we haven't experienced what they went through....how could we possibly know everything?

If you decide that because of his comments regarding his estranged child rubs you too much the wrong way and you cannot tolerate this man anymore because of this, then I think you owe it to him and yourself to be honest with him about it. It doesn't mean that you have to be snide or rude, but to let him know that you are having difficulties with accepting his decisions. That could lead to a more open dialect between the both of you (if he sees fit to do so). He doesn't owe you any explanations as to his actions.

We all decide in life who we will associate with by common interests. If he and his wife have common interests with you, are easy to get along with, you enjoy spending time with them....maybe you can find it within yourself to continue the relationship and just make it a rule not to discuss this kind of subject anymore as you don't see eye to eye on it. People can agree to disagree and still continue in a healthy relationship. Myself, I would rather enjoy his company in the here and now than worry about what his life's choices were years ago. He and his child are the ones who will have to live through it....and maybe, just maybe, his child is just fine.


sabby

It is an interesting question.

I think it would be a shame to ditch the friendship over something that has been there all along, and never before been a problem. Basically the only difference between your relationship with Fred today and last month is a piece of information. Fred is still the same person, only your knowledge of him has changed.

I agree with the other posters that more information would be needed to make any sort of assessment as to whether Fred's actions are 'inexcusable'.

This could be a learning opportunity for all involved. I don't think you are 'just being difficult', but I do think you're being triggered. Perhaps this opens up a new area of healing for you.

And for Fred, maybe with your love and acceptance there will be an opportunity to help him in the future to make positive decisions regarding the child. If you cut him off, you will not be able to do that.

I'd imagine you've spent a good deal of time thinking of the negative aspects of Fred. Before the company party, take some time to remember the positive aspects. Remember that he is a human being, and is fallible, just like you. Whether you decide to work on the friendship or not, this will help with being civil.

...my .02 cents
HTH

The conversation was with him. He requested that his daughter be removed from his health insurance coverage (which he does not have to pay a cent for btw). Seems the child’s mother requested and was granted an increase in child support. And he was going to show her. It all came as quite a shock, he’d never mentioned her before and didn’t even mention the child’s name. He said that the girls mom was such a ***** that he couldn’t stand to be around her and he was sure the daughter was just like her. I can’t give exact quotes because my brain was on overload at this time. He was very angry and I was very shocked.

Micky – I’m sorry that your parents were so irresponsible.

Tishie – you’re absolutely right, I can’t clean up the world. I do not delude myself into thinking that anything I have to say on the matter would change anything.

And I’m not saying that I know the whole story or think that I’m better than he is. But I do think that people, men or women, that just abandon their children because the relationship between the adults went sour are the scum of the earth. It is my firm belief that once you bring a child into the world, it is their best interest that must come first.

And the point that we don’t know everything about people is a good one.

((((((((((((( AAAAA )))))))))))))))

Your heart is in the right place...there is no doubt about it. This is obviously something that you will have to decide within yourself if you can continue a relationship with this guy.

In a perfect world, no child would be without both their parents. Oh how I wish that could be. I also understand that many times an absent parent does not have the opportunity (for whatever reason) to bond with that child. It's also possible that this father is projecting his pain in a damaging way by removing her from his insurance and saying that she's probably just like her mother. We know that kind of thinking is skewed and seems to be a way for him to distance himself without feeling guilty. How unfortunate for him that he can't find his way out of his pain to really know his daughter.

The sins of the parents should never be projected on the children they have.....unfortunately....all too often that is not the case


sabby

Here's the odd thing, I feel guilty revealing as much as I did. I'm very vocal about my membership to this site, sing its praises all the time. I'm very upset with Fred, but I at the same time I would not post specific quotes because I was afraid he took me up on the suggestion to join and would recognize himself. What does that say about my moral character? I'm a coward.

It sounds like you are seeing a part of him that was hidden. Maybe you don't want to be around someone that could do that. Of course, when we start to feel comfortable around someone, we start to reveal ourselves.

I don't know what to say. Do you watch Larry David Show? He has a yelling relationship with his best friend's wife. I couldn't live like that.

I guess I've severed relationships with people who do things that violate my values. There was a man who wanted to know how to get out of paying child support, then wanted to know how not to feel guilty about it. How far are we willing to stretch ourselves?

Finally, I guess you have nothing to lose by just coming out and telling him that you can't listen to him talking about his child or ex. There's always the possibility that he might actually learn a thing or two from you. And you won't have violated your own values by being silent. I tend to tell everyone except the person who needs to hear it.

Hope you'll let us know what happens.

I would be uncomfortable remaining friends with the man but I think I would feel uncomfortable more from the shock of major, unsuspected information being thrust upon me suddenly than what it might mean to "me". If it had happened to me, I suspect I would have tried to "defend" myself with familiar beliefs.

Do you know the wife well enough to call and chat with her at all?

My 2 cents....

If Fred is a co-worker in reality... makes things more difficult - because it would impact the place where you have to go into every day and earn a living... so ... "calling the wife.. or confronting Fred" is something I would think long and hard about... I have seen too many poltics.. at work... and these things can get out of hand... and... it would then impact your every day life..

Though I don't know if that was just a "for instance"...on your part...

I would though.. treat it differently.... in other words... if it was in anyway connected to my work...

For myself.. anything I feel very strongly about... the issue... it is hard for me to "hide" my reaction...

I will give you a personal example... maybe it will help... maybe not...

I had a very long term friendship... about 8 years with my co-worker.. and his wife...(I worked with all guys)... I babysat for them... I helped paint their home when they moved.. etc....the wife and I did things together..

I came.. thru the years to disagree very strongly with the fact that my friend.. was heavily involved with his oldest son's hockey - starting at age 5... by age 7... he was on a traveling team... and the involment for the next 3 years became all consuming... I mean all consuming.. dragging his other 2 children... all over.. weekends to these hockey games that were in places.. all over where they had to stay in hotels.. it was so far..

The youngest son... was starved for attention... he became overweight.. the boy and the very young daughter... spent their weekends literally playing at hockey rinks... eating junk food... whether it was in the home town or.. in a different town... then there were the 2-3 times a week practices.. that they also spent at the rink...

I got to know the younger boy very well.. and found he loved nature..

Well... I couldn't.. keep quiet - I kept trying to discuss this with my friend.. saying he loves nature.. and perhaps... your oldest son could play on a home team.. without the travel - remember the boy was 9-10 years old...and you could get younger son involved with something he was interested in... younger son.. at this point was acting out... at school.. at home.. Yazza.. anger...severe anger...

My friend said he felt that he wanted his older son in the pros someday.. and.. that was that.. and if the other 2 children needed to sacrafice for that.. well.. too bad..

well... it did become a breaking point for our friendship because I grew.. to the point where I couldn't stand.. what he was doing... seeing him drag... these other 2 children.. to other states.. to Canada... you name it... all hockey.. they would become exhausted....all for this "future" pros shot for the older boy..and my friend.. didn't even think whether this boy.. wanted to be in the pros... my friend decided...

I guess... everyone can call me judgemental - but I felt the other 2 children had a right to a childhood too....and they weren't getting it..

Soooooooooooooo... the point to my long story... was this was an issue that I felt strongly about... and...I couldn't continue the friendship...

I just could not continue the friendship... I tried to talk to him... and I so.. so wish I didn't.. because there was no way he was going to change..

And... since I worked with him... and had to see him every day.... things were very strained...and.. me being single parent... my job was very important..

So... had it not been for working with him... my talking to him would have been ok... for me....

my 2 cents about your friend..... if this man "dropped" his daughter from his insurance - it sounds like he is very angry.. very set in his ways... like my friend was... and not sure talking would help in anyway....and... for me... I would "see" this when I saw my friend.. and children are very near .. very dear to my heart... and my mouth... would probably open.. Yazza.. like it did with my friend...

my 2 cents...and very long story..

a very difficult position for you to be in... I wish he had not shared this with you....

This sounds like the type of dilema I usually have no answers for either. You raise a very interesting question. It is a very important lesson for me that I don't have the answers too. I like Spotted Owl's approach. ( I tried to respond, but it kept saying I had under 10 characters, Pfff..me never! lol so hopefully this response will post) people like him seem to have more friends and have it under control. But I am curious when do you say no because people like that can really take a turn in the future.

How do you know when to say no to a friend because that new info may be targeted at you next? I don't like what your friend is doing. But for me I can overlook some stuff, just that I know our bond will not be as close because I would always be aware of the negativity within that person and just how heartless he could be. I would not feel I could really count on that person if his own child could not.

Spotted Owl"I'd imagine you've spent a good deal of time thinking of the negative aspects of Fred. Before the company party, take some time to remember the positive aspects. Remember that he is a human being, and is fallible, just like you. Whether you decide to work on the friendship or not, this will help with being civil. " I think this is a very important piece here, although I still would like to hear Spotted Owl's response to what I have brought up because I have this issue also. Trigger or being careful who your friends are? How can you know?

His wife and I are cordial not exactly friendly. And I guess that I’ve been a bit unclear, I no longer have to work with the man, my husband still does and now we see each other on only a social basis. What prompted the thread is that he called the other day and I did not pay attention to caller ID and I actually answered the phone.

I had been able to avoid him for some time and hubby has been able to give valid excuses why we haven’t gone out. Since it was now apparent that I am home I was put in the awkward position of turning them down myself. I did give the valid excuse that the second week in September is particularly difficult for me. Which would have been fine, except he added “oh yes I’d forgotten, so sorry, is there anything we can do? We were beginning to wonder what’s going on, we haven’t seen you in forever.” Instant pit in my stomach.

What I had hoped would happen is that they’d just forget about us, out of sight out of mind. I do not enjoy confrontation; I don’t even think it’s my place to confront him. I was concerned that the other party mentioned what my problem actually was (which I still suspect to be the case). But if this is the case, why hasn’t he gotten the hint? It has been literally months since we’ve gone out with them. The last party that we went to we made sure that they were not going prior to going there ourselves.

I don’t want to put hubby in the middle and create a hostile work environment; he still has to work with the man on a daily basis. But does this mean that I have to suck it up and socialize with someone that I have no desire to anymore just to keep the peace? Things I saw before and brushed off as a teasing way, I look at now with different eyes. It looks cruel now not funny. Comments made in jest (I thought) I now wonder if that’s what he really feels. Maybe he’s not going for the laugh, maybe he does think women are inferior.

I have no "sage" advice.... except sypathmy.... such an ackward situation to be in..... it would be so good... if the "fading away"... thing would work.....

so sorry for this dilemma AAAAA

you are such a Dear Person, with a great heart.

I guess, if possible, you could see this person changing for the better, in the future.

what actions/decisions are taken today by anyone will definitely give them circumstances to have to deal with eventually on account.

with this in mind, it's easier to see that Fred will have regrets, if not already, down the road.

we don't need to get caught up in others decisions to create their own destinies - if we are nor asked to, I think.

he isn't going to get away with anything. if he hurts his family members, he truly hurts himself.

when I look at that bigger picture for everyone, I can feel compassion and release my personal feelings regarding that persons mistakes.

realizing that I don't like anyone to suffer, including myself, I accept that certain injuries done towards others will inevitably revisit them.

life is got some invisible law like that.

if you told him, someday, that you felt hurt when he expressed those angry feelings and took such an action against his child, and that when you are hurt, you want the situation - or the person - to go away until you process things.

who doesn't.

so, by telling him that you were avoiding him because you needed to deal with it - and that is the truth of what you are doing right now - I bet a conversation will happen to help the both of you come full circle.

Fred sounds like he is capable of caring, and definitely likes you and your husband, and you are a wonderful family ... so ... he is attracted to this also.

maybe give him a chance to see the light.

who doesn't benefit from seeing the light from someone they trust and care about?

best to you and what you decide. you will do what you feel is right for your life.

I understand your feelings completely. you are valid in your disappointment.

peace and love,
night

Thank you for the kind words Jacqueline!

It is always easier said than done, but I do try to treat others how I would want to be treated. I would never want a friend to suddenly stop talking to me with no explanation. So, I try not to do that to others.

I don't think there is a way to "know" if we are just being triggered, but I do think if I am having a strong emotional response, it is worth taking a closer look into *why* my emotional response is so strong. Was I just having a bad day? Is this triggering something else? etc.

One phrase I heard that I often repeat because I find it a useful way to look at the relationships in my life:
"People are in our lives for a reason, a season, or a lifetime."

If this friend is not a life-long friend, and they are still in my life, then I think there must be a reason for me to encounter this person. There is a lesson that I can learn from them. If I cut them off, then I have lost an opportunity to learn that lesson.

Not sure if that helps.

Many warm fuzzies to all -- and AAAAA, I hope you find peace with this situation.

Thank you all for your insight and advice, you’ve definitely given me food for thought. Spotted I agree with you 100% that people enter our life for a reason, we have something to learn from them and something to teach them in my opinion.

I truly try to live my life in a non-judgmental type of way. I know that it is very easy to say what we’d do in a situation not having to experience it. There are certain issues that none of us can bend on, and they vary from person to person.

My dilemma now is do I just tell him how I feel and perhaps make things awkward for hubby at work or do I just put on a pleasant face when I see him at functions and just continue to come up with reasons that we cannot go out of our way to socialize with him. Eventually he’ll stop calling I’m sure.

Does it make me a coward or hypocrite to just avoid the subject?

I think it makes you human -- you're not avoiding the subject, you're trying figure out what to do.

Maybe you can write Fred a letter. Whether you send it or not, you can decide later. It might help clarify how you feel, so that you can make the right decision for you.

"People are in our lives for a reason, a season, or a lifetime."

If this friend is not a life-long friend, and they are still in my life, then I think there must be a reason for me to encounter this person. There is a lesson that I can learn from them. If I cut them off, then I have lost an opportunity to learn that lesson.


Thank you very much for setting me straight, bringing more clarity to my life and saying it so darn well. That's some good stuff to ponder, and advice I will carry with me for a long time to come. .

Wow, my life has been full, day to day, hour to hour, minute to mintue, with hard, wrenching, empty, anguishing, lessons, whether it was the months in the psychiatric wing, the emotional abandonment from my own mother, the giving up of the children I loved, the message I got loud and clear, was, here is heartache, another lesson, knocking on your door, albeit a door that seemed to revolve, right into my heart...yes, I have friends, that seem to want to teach me a lesson or two, time is too short, for friendships dealing me lessons, and I take my time away from them, freeing myself, if only for a day or two, from another lesson. I have had friends laugh at me in the midst of a vulnerable breakdown, friends tell me when I take a personality test 'did you fail...' friends use me, friends try to control me, to the point I had to work on my boundaries, and even keep a journal, of all the things I have witnessed. I plan to publish my life with my illness, all of the ugly things, that made me stronger, into the person I am today...someone that could use a little lesson, in my humble opinion, perhaps hasn't had the heartbreaking lessons already jamming their mind and soul.

(((((((((AAAAA)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I just saw this thread this morning. It really interested me as I never knew one of my grandfathers till I was I think 16((having hard time remembering extact age right now may of been older)) My Grandfather for what ever reasons when my Dads Mom passed away at age 7 put all 3 boys in a orpanage. Youngest boy being a baby. It made a huge impact on my Dad for life. Also the 2 younger boys. They felt hidden . But in years to come I meet my grandfather and got to know him.(( I forgot to say my grandfather was only 45 minutes away))) When I first saw him . He was doing a show. I stood right before him and his wife . Which I condisder My grandmother. They never knew who i was. Till later.
My Dad forgave him. I also did and loved him much. Was beside him when he passed. We only had a few years together . But i feel very blessed for those.
I am sorry I am putting My life storys in here, Hope its ok. I am doing it for examples for you.
My sister I use to talk about all the time on here. Right before she gave up coke and drinking. ((went clean)) Before I moved her here. Told me on the phone. Her Husband had a child. He had given up that child years ago. She was 3 I think.
Right after my sisters husband passed away my sister recieved a letter from his daughter, The daughter did not know her dad had passed away. She wanted to meet him. Was so sad as the letter came just weeks of his passing. Before I moved her up here . And after I had her put in the hospital. I asked her to turn the letter over to his brother. As someone needed to answer it. If she was not going to . She would not let me.
Trying to make this short ((so sorry its so long)) Any ways his brother made contact with the daughter. Went and saw her. Sadly after a few things came out. The took hair from my sisters husbands hair brush or something. Did tests . This girl was not My sisters husbands child
The mom had fooled around I guess. I think thats why my brother in law gave her up. But he did support her. But my brother in law never knew forsure......
One more and please forgive me .....
My uncle ((not blood uncle)) when his parents passed away. He found out . That the man he thought was his uncle for all his life . Was really his brother. It came out in his parents will......
My uncle being the person he was . Accepted this man as his brother and forgave his Dad right away. He was amazing.......
There are always 2 sides to a story I guess is my point. Some good , some not so good.
My best advise is if you can talk to this person. FInd out why if you need to...
If you have decided his actions towards you are not what you want to be around . Then the rest does not matter. You are a good person ((AAAAA))
I can tell because you are thinking this threw and do not want to hurt anyone.
I hope this helped . I am sorry I was so long winded...
Muffy

(((((Junerain))))) In my own opinion there is a HUGE difference between giving your children up for their (or your) own health and safety and simply abandoning your children. I’m sorry that you had to go through that.

Muffy – I have a similar experience. As I mentioned in one of agony’s threads, both of my parents were abandoned by … well virtually both of their parents. I grew up hearing the awful things my father (and five siblings) went through because kids just tied his mother down and she wasn’t having it. My mother was fortunate to be raised in a loving home by her maternal grandparents. On her paternal side however only her grandfather claimed us. Her paternal grandmother never thought my grandmother was good enough for her son.

In any event, when I was 12 years old we were at the 4th of July celebration in town. (Very big deal there.) I was playing with my friends and my mother called me over and introduced me to this elderly woman, my maternal grandmother. I could tell by icy tone of voice “this is your grandmother” that she didn’t like the woman. I asked my mom how we were related. (I was very confused, I vividly remembered her grandfather in our life until his death, I thought he was a widower.) She had been drinking so she explained the whole situation to me, loudly, in public. Small town, all of the adults already knew the drama, but it was awkward for me to hear it.