For those who have shared feelings with their T

(((Lonesome))) That's incredibly draining to go through all that in the space of what, an hour? You are really very brave to take this up purposefully with your T. Your MC obviously saw something was wrong and wanted to show nonverbal support. They both sound like good people. I hope this resolves more next week.

Thanks for the hugs! Yeah, "drained" is a good way to explain how I feel right now. Tried to go to bed early, but I can't sleep, so here I am on here.

I think you're probably right about MC seeing something was wrong and providing support by just continuing to stand there with me. If he was just waiting for the copier, he could have been like "See you tomorrow" to me and just gone back to his office and waited a bit. Or he could have just talked to me about random stuff. Normally he'd ask how I was doing, but he could probably tell (and with T and receptionist right there, he knew I'd probably be like, "I'm OK! You?")

And you're right that they're both good people--I'm lucky to have found them. I only found my T by looking on the Psychology Today area where you can search for T's--mine said she specialized in anxiety, so I e-mailed her. I heard back from another one first, but she couldn't see me for a few weeks. My current T could see me like that week, I think, so I went with her. Then of course she referred me to MC. I've been through some T's in the past who've been various levels of helpful. Glad I have some good ones now.

SoccerMom, I read your thread where you mentioned about the connection and attunement. That rings true for me, too. The thing with me is, I know my mom did try to be there for me (and still does). We're just very different people, and she doesn't tend to understand what I need. And she didn't give me support when I had OCD and anxiety issues as a kid, and then later when I had problems with depression later in high school. She's the type to hide feelings away and keep everything a secret, which is the opposite of how I am. I mean, I think part of why I've had marriage issues is that I never saw my parents fight (they're still together but certainly don't have a perfect marriage), so when my H and I argue, it seems like the end of the world. And I have lots of trouble dealing with anger, both with other people being angry with me and even experiencing anger myself. Instead of expressing anger toward other people, I tend to turn it inward, which isn't healthy.

That seems painful that your T won't validate your feelings. That was one good thing when I initially told MC about my feelings for him, that he seemed to validate them and let me know that it was OK and normal to have those feelings and that we'd be able to work through them. Of course, now I have the feeling that I want to make sure it's still OK. At least, I think that's part of what's going on.

It was difficult today when I ended up telling my T that I felt love for her (couldn't bring myself to actually say "I love you") and all she could really say was that it was nice for me to say that. She mentioned how there was one patient she had for years, and that patient was in the hospital. The daughter called T to tell her and told T that her mom (the patient) really loved her. And T said she told the daughter that she wasn't supposed to say it, but she loved the patient too. I wanted to be like, "Can't you tell me that too, then?"

I think I just hadn't realized how much transference I had for her because I was busy thinking about the feelings for MC. She'd said maybe a month or two ago (in response to me mentioning stuff from this board about T's using touch) that she hugs some her patients. In the back of my mind, I'd kept thinking, "So why not me?" especially since I'd left some sessions really upset. Actually asking her the question today and getting her response was really upsetting to me. I mean, I know she may think if I have some transference that a hug could be detrimental to my progress, but then why say she does hug some of her patients? MC shakes hands, which may seem very minor in terms of touch, but at least it's some sort of physical touch that feels like a connection (at least to me!). It's funny, I had just assumed she didn't hug any patient, so it didn't bother me before until I found out she did hug some. Jealousy, I guess? And I thought if nothing else, maybe she'd give me a hug at the end of today's session, since I was sobbing pretty hard at the end there, but no. I'm just thankful that when I was standing there waiting for her to figure out the photocopier, trying to hold it together, MC happened to come out. I'm sure he could tell something was wrong. LindaLu mentioned that he was probably trying to give me nonverbal support. That's kind of what it felt like, based on the looks he was giving me, and it helped.

So now I feel like I not only need to talk to T about my transference for MC, but also about my transference for her. I'm glad I have the people on this board to talk to about this--it really just probably sounds weird to someone who hasn't been through it (or at least who hasn't been through therapy). I almost feel like this subforum should be renamed "Romantic and/or Maternal/Paternal Feelings Toward Your Therapist," because they both fall along the same confusing, often painful, lines.

I think she DID say it. Last summer I felt like I loved my T. but my mind wouldn't "allow" me and kept telling me it's wrong. Around February, I left a session and for the first time felt like my mind and heart were in sync. Not only did I love her but it was ok. The next session I went in and told her. I was really nervous because I had also told her ET so I didn't want her thinking I want HER - it's more about the connection. So, I told her that I've realized I love her. She asked why it was so hard to say. (could be seen as validation). I said I didn't know but it is and that I rarely say it first with anyone. I struck first and said that she didn't need to say it back because I saw it in her eyes when she said she cared about me the session before. My T. nodded and smiled. No, she didn't say the words but she implied that she does. I think that's what your T. was doing. I hope I'm not wrong but I don't know WHY she would give you that example except for you to see that she may not say it but it doesn't mean she doesn't feel it.

Thanks Soccer Mom--that makes me feel much better. I think you're probably right that she was implying it. I mean, why would she say all that otherwise--just to make me feel bad? Like, no hugs for you--and no love either! I can tell she cares about me and has basically said as much in the past. For some reason, it didn't occur to me that she was trying to imply that with what she said to me about the other patient.

And I'm glad yours basically said it without saying it, too

OK, off to joint session with MC...

Joint session with MC went pretty well today, but I was all weepy on the way home because that need is still there, of course. Plus for the first few minutes of the session, all I could really think while looking at him was "I love you so much." (Though still not sure if it's paternal or romantic or both.)

So I just left him a rather nonsensical voicemail mentioning needs for reassurance and not being sure what I'm asking for and...uh...something about transference, and yeah, I don't even know. Pretty sure his reaction will be: Then I sent an e-mail about the voicemail where I tried and probably failed to better explain. Asked him to call just to figure out what the next step would be (hopefully by some chance he'll call either today before H gets home or during the day tomorrow, but knowing me he won't. But H was just saying to me yesterday after I told him about my session with T that if there was more transference stuff to deal with re: MC, we could talk about it in session, or whatever).

I probably should have waited till I knew what I wanted but I just felt better calling him. Hoping he won't be annoyed or anything, but it's not like I call him very often at all (last time was over 2 months ago). And hope I hear back. (Even if he's just like, "Um, what?????") And that my T isn't mad that I called him or anything.

So, I really hope I hear from MC tomorrow. Didn't really expect anything tonight, since I left the message at like 4 or something. He's usually at the office until the evening, but last time I left him a weepy voicemail in the afternoon, he called me the next day. (This one was only briefly weepy.) I just want to know it's OK.

I hope you hear from MC tomorrow and that he reassures you in the way you need.

Hi Rainbow, I think you all have nice therapist.. I been thinking about my old T..and wish he would have contacted me sometime.. Dont think he will though.

Good luck with your therapy though.

Do you still see your therapist, nicoleflynn? and how long can you still see him? I went to therapy yesterday.. I mentioned to my New therapist.. that I been thinking about the old therapist, who I had feelings for.. but new therapist, changed the subject.. though week before, new t.. told me he knows my old T.

Dear lonesome I think you re so brave to address these issues. I wish I had your courage. I did try to talk to T about fear of attachment and being needy with him. I even let him read my personal journal notes regarding the issues. I told him I was considering quitting because of my fear of my feelings for him. We never discussed it in future sessions. He never brought it up and I felt to much shame that I had revealed that side of me and he couldn't even acknowledge me. He did ask if I decided to continue. Duh, obviously. That was 8 weeks ago. I haven't seen him in a month. It's been a very difficult month. I am hurt and angry that I feel so abandoned.I think he wants me to leave and I can't ever do this again. My whole life I have feared rejection and that is exactly how I feel. I'm sure he'd have some logical explanation but I think T's should consider how we might be feeling. Anyway I wish i could open up like you! You are awesome. Thanks for your post.

Thanks, Rainbow! I want him to call but at the same time have no idea what to say to him. Hoping he'll have some sense of what I'm feeling/wanting and can help me figure it out... Or that he would say we could talk a few minutes at the end of our joint session next week. Or that we could schedule an individual session, maybe for later in the month, so I'll have time to figure out what's in my head (like with T).

Just want to hear something, so it's not just hanging out there.

I'm sorry you had that experience, Baseline. I remember some of your previous posts, but can't recall the details. Did your T leave it up to you to call to schedule again, and you haven't called because of how you're feeling? Did you talk to him about feeling abandoned by him?

It is really scary to talk about. But I've found it's often worse for me if I don't talk about things. Like then I wonder, if the person (whether it's a T or someone else) knew what I was feeling about them, would they still accept me? So it's like I need to find out. But then here I am, waiting anxiously by my phone and e-mail, worried MC was annoyed by my call or e-mail, wondering what he's thinking and hoping I'll hear from him soon (at least before our Monday appointment!)

I also fear rejection/abandonment (though I'm sure that's obvious!), partly because of some stuff in my past and partly I think just because of how I'm wired, with anxiety, etc. I want people to accept me how I am, but I'm afraid they won't. MC (and my T) have both seemed extremely accepting and caring. Since I have some paternal and maternal transference, I almost wonder if this is like a child testing their parents' love. I have a young daughter, and both MC and T (who both have kids and have some training in child development--particularly MC) have explained before how kids test their parents to make sure they can rely on them and be accepted. So maybe this is like that...

Just as a quick update, haven't heard anything back from MC, but he could have been really busy, dealing with higher-priority phone calls, or out of the office today. Having some trouble dealing today because last night I had a triggering dream about someone from my past (like 20 years ago) that abandoned me (male authority figure, naturally), plus I found out today that my friend's younger brother passed away from melanoma last month (didn't know him well more recently but used to hang out at their house all the time in middle and high school).
I sent my individual T a couple e-mails, which she can read but can't respond to out of the office (their e-mail system is a bit...primitive, though they're upgrading soon). First one didn't say anything about calling, second one asked her to maybe call today or tomorrow if she could.
And tomorrow, I'll be in the office of MC and T to see my p-doc--my monthly appointments with her always seem to coincide with times I'm especially stressed about something. I guess if I run into MC and haven't heard from him by then, I could just be like, "Hey, did you get my message?" (Thought he also could have e-mailed, and it's wandering around in Gmail purgatory, and I'll get it in a day or two, which has happened before with him and T--apparently Gmail labels some of their e-mails as suspicious, for whatever reason, and holds them).

Just want to hear something...because otherwise my mind automatically goes to that he's annoyed with me or something, even though it could be a hundred other things...

Quick update--saw MC in the waiting room before my p-doc appointment this morning. He pointed to me and was like, "I owe you a phone call. I'm sorry, yesterday was just really crazy." He then asked me if I'd be available to talk (by phone) later this afternoon. I said I was, so he said he'd call after 3 or 4. Still not entirely sure what I'm going to say to him, but at least we've made contact (and he initiated the conversation) and should be talking soon.

Very brief update with more later--talked to MC for almost a half hour. Didn't know what to say at first, but ended up having a good conversation. He's not going anywhere and now knows I love him, so...yeah.

Was he surprised to hear that you love him?

I don't think he was surprised by the time I said it because I was basically dancing around it the entire conversation.

Like saying I wanted reassurance, and he asked why--whether I needed reassurance about things with us, that he still accepted me? That he wouldn't reject me? And I was like "yes, both." He said he wasn't going anywhere and that he wouldn't reject me. (This was the point where I started to get weepy.) I said I was worried how he'd react if I knew how he felt about him (he already knew I had feelings for him, so clearly I meant something else). And he talked about his philosophy that all feelings are valid and how we can't control our feelings. I said I understood that but still wished I had better control over my feelings.

I said I felt bad for calling and e-mailing him because it made me feel needy. He said just because I had needs, it didn't make me needy. He talked about needs for water, etc. I realized that it wasn't so much having needs in general, but needing people that was the issue for me. Which seemed to be a aha! moment, at least in the way he reacted. He said that having emotional needs is OK.

I guess this shifted to talks of sharing feelings and fears about that (parts of the conversation are a little hazy for me.) We talked about when I'd shared feelings and had someone reject me. I mentioned a couple romantic relationships. And about fears when I was first with my H and realized I loved him but was afraid he'd reject me if he knew and didn't feel it yet. MC said, well, besides those, when else. So mentioned a situation with a teacher in high school (too complicated to go into here--will just say that nothing inappropriate happened) and something else around that time. And he was like, "So it's been that long?" (I'm in my mid-late 30s). I think he was trying to demonstrate that sharing my feelings does not generally lead to people rejecting me. He compared it to running, where there's a risk of getting hurt, but still plenty of benefits to it--which is a bad example for me, because I hate running! I was like, "Yeah, well, I'm still not going to run because I hate it," which got a laugh out of him.

He said how I'm apparently not scared of sharing my emotions because I was doing it right now. And that was brave of me. I was like, "Yeah, but I'm crying and still afraid." Around then, I was trying to figure out if we were going to schedule an individual session or if this phone call would be it for now. He said it could be better to work on what I'm already working on related to this with my T (rather than shifting to him), then we could see about meeting if I wanted. (I had said I was concerned he was uncomfortable with another individual meeting, and he said it wasn't about him, it was about what I was comfortable with).

I think then I realized if I was going to say something, it had to be then, or else I'd be waiting a while. Checked on whether he still had some time left, he said at least another minute (we were definitely over 15 minutes at that point). And I said I was just worried about how he'd react to something I felt about him and was still fearful he'd make me go away. Of course he gave the feelings are valid, etc., thing. Finally I was like, "So what if I feel like...what if I love you--is that OK?" And he was like, "That's OK, ...but you have awful taste!" Which kinda made me laugh. And I was like, "So it really is OK, you're not going to make me leave or anything?" And he said, "Yes, it's OK." And said maybe one or two other things (I think my mind went blank at that point) and said he'd see me at our next (joint) appt., which is Monday. I thanked him, he thanked me, told me to take care, which I reciprocated, then that was it.

That was a long way of confirming that he didn't seem surprised, but probably because of all the stuff I said leading up to it. Like if he called, and I was just like, "I need to tell you something!" out of the blue, then he may have been surprised. He also may have already suspected, based on things I'd said or ways I acted/looked at him. I just hope I can deal with this OK and won't want reassurance from him on Monday, say--H knows I talked to him and had wanted reassurance, but he doesn't know about the love part.

And now I'm having an, "Oh God, I told MC I loved him yesterday!" moment.

(And we have a joint session Monday, naturally!)

I'm such a mess. OK, had our joint session today. Started OK, talking about kid and stuff. Then shifted to transference, he was saying how common and normal it is. I sat there anxiously during the whole conversation, fearful that the "L" word would come up. Mainly consisted of MC asking me how H had been through things, and I was saying supportive. So MC kept commending how he was acting and how he was generally "safe" just like he (MC) is. And MC was also talking about how my H might feel competitive, but that the MC we know isn't the real him and is basically the persona/side of himself that he uses in the office. So the ideal isn't real. Like he kept impressing this point. I assume the purpose was to keep H from being threatened (H said we talked about call some, so MC might have thought I told him about the love thing). But it just felt horribly invalidating to me. Like I felt very validated and safe and comforted about everything during the call Friday. But this felt like, "OK, that person you love doesn't exist. Your H is just as safe, and he's real." I'm sure that's not how he intended me to read it, but it's how it felt.

And then toward the end, MC was asking how I felt during the session. I was like, "Um, uncomfortable?" Like that should have been obvious by how I was acting! And he was like, "Be more descriptive" and I was like "Um...well...uncomfortable.' And MC said did the word "vulnerable" fit what I was feeling? And I was like, "Well, yes," thinking, "Can't you ****ing tell?" It probably seemed to him that it ended OK (though I shed a few tears once he asked about my feelings), but I sobbed the whole way home.

Collected myself and tried to leave him a breezy, lighthearted message about thanking him for not bringing a certain thing up and that I understood who I loved wasn't the real him but thought the real him was probably a pretty good guy too. And made a joking reference to something about cars that we'd talked about. Got off phone, started crying again, ended up leaving another message (probably moving into annoying territory), saying I'd tried to leave him a light message but in reality I was struggling and felt like I needed to talk to him more one on one about things. That he'd probably say I should talk to my H or my T, but I really felt I wanted to talk to him about it and asked if he could help me through it. Or something like that. Asked him to call in next day or two so we could either schedule individual session or he could tell me we shouldn't schedule one. (I didn't want him to htink I expected another half-hour phone convo).

He's probably contacting my individual T right now, asking her to deal with me when I see her tomorrow. OK, not "deal with me" but figure out what's up with me. I think I just feel extra vulnerable after sharing the love feelings. And this session didn't so much help with that...

Hmmmm, yes, I've gone through feeling like this, when I felt T was pushing me back towards my partner when I just wanted to be with my feeling for him (T).

Thanks--good to know you've been there too, though sorry you've also experienced it. I mean, I get why he's doing it, especially since it's marriage counseling, but it's still difficult a few days after we talked. I did comment today in session when he was saying how common transference is that it's a more complicated situation here because it's marriage counseling. And he seemed to act like not really, that it could still happen there. But what I meant was more that I can't just sit and talk to him about it whenever I want like if it was individual therapy. I mean, I guess I could, if I didn't mind talking about it in front of my H, but, yeah, not so much...

I think it's just weird having that conversation Friday, then being in this session today. If it was individual, we'd have been able to discuss the stuff from Friday more. Which is why I kinda feel like I want to talk to him by himself, but I'm concerned he'll resist. Though on Friday when I mentioned that, I said something like, "But I know you might not feel comfortable with an individual session," and he was like, "It's not about what I'm comfortable with, it's what you're comfortable with." The problem is, I feel like he was acting differently toward me today than he normally does, even in joint sessions (and certainly differently from Friday, when he was being super caring and understanding). I just hope it wasn't like because I said a certain thing that now he's all like trying to back away from me. That seems like it would go against what he said about not going anywhere, not rejecting me, etc., no matter what I felt/told him...

As I've been laying here awake the past hour or two, I've been thinking more about this maybe being more paternal than erotic, at least at this point. It just feels like the emotions hit me in a different place than with romantic relationships, if that makes sense. Like the pain is more intense because it's going back to childhood stuff. And MC saying that the person I see doesn't exist would be harder for me to deal with if it's an idealized father figure rather than an idealized lover. Especially since a lot of it for me is about feeling safe with MC--if that person doesn't exist, then there goes my safety!

Not sure how much sense this makes since my brain is not fully awake, but I'll bring it up with my individual T today to get her take. We were planning to talk about father stuff anyway (as I was supposed to wait to say anything to MC until we'd figured out the root of my need for reassurance).

I initially disclosed my feelings by bringing him a cupcake and sort of sobbing/talking into my hoodie sleeve. i was a mess. so scared and embarrassed and instantly regretted bringing it up. the next couple of times i hinted at it and retreated when he picked up the hints and began discussing it directly. a couple of weeks ago I just told him while I didn't want to talk about the "cupcake" I needed to be able bring my cupcakes (I can't even use the actual L word. it terrifies me) right now. I also told him that at some point I realize we need to have the talk but I'm not ready now. He would totally rather be actually processing the feelings but is really protective of our alliance so he's been patient and hasn't pushed. I struggle a lot. mostly on my own and I rarely share my feelings with him unless I feel like I'm not able to set them aside to do the work.