[DP_2017]

So my T gave me some papers from DBT about emotions, some of you may know what they are, but it basically describes various emotions in detail and gives examples and also tells you how you may feel and think about certain things, he chose 6 specific ones for me that fit my needs.

Well one of them was love.... and he said that he was printing it because he thinks it would be good for me to understand love more from a human standpoint, because i said previously i only love my dogs and only ever felt love from my dogs.... anyway as I was reading through, minus the sexual stuff, everything was basically describing how I feel about him

I am thinking he intentionally picked it in hopes to get me to admit/accept that or something as it was a really random choice since I never brought love up at all today. I feel so shameful about this now.... and I feel silly that he probably saw all this in me long before I was truly aware of it, I only ever thought I felt friend like feelings.

I want to know in a way if he chose it because he thinks I do have love feelings for him or if it was more general but I'm scared, I can't bring this up after all the stuff we recently had go on.... I can't believe according to the papers I feel love for someone who only has limited interest/care in me, what on earth is wrong with me? Sigh...

[maybeblue]

I'm curious what you see the differences are between "friend like feelings" and love? I haven't read the DBT stuff, so I don't know how they are defining love. I personally think that there are all kinds of love.

[DP_2017]

Well for me, a friend was/is basically someone I can see myself enjoying being around and doing things like walking my dogs, watching movies, going out to eat or just sitting around and talking/laughing. It is hugely based on personality for me and having a lot in common. Thats's all I thought I felt with my T... but since I don't think I can post pics here?? I will just type some of the stuff directly that the paper says that fits my T...

"Prompting events for feeling love"
--- A person does things you particularly value or admire
---You share a special experience together with a person
---You have exceptionally good communication with a person
---Being with someone you have fun with
---A person offers/gives you something you want, need or desire

"Interpretations of events that prompt love feelings"
---Believing a person loves, needs or appreciates you
---Judging a person's personality as wonderful, pleasing or attractive
---Believing a person can be counted on and will be there for you

"Biological Changes and Experiences of love"
---Feeling excited/fully of energy
---Feeling self confident
---Feeling warm, trusting and secure
---Feeling relaxed/calm
---Wanting the best for a person
---Wanting to give things to a person
---Wanting to see/spend time with a person
---Wanting physical or emotional closeness (it also says sex but I don't have that desire)

"Expressions and Actions of love"
---Expressing positive feelings for a person
---Eye contact/mutual gaze
---Touching, hugging etc
---Smiling
---Sharing time/experiences with a person

"After effects of love"
---Only seeing their positive side
---Daydreaming, forgetfulness
---Openess and trust
---Feeling "alive"
---Remembering and imagining other positive events

This is basically the parts of it that fit for me

[growlycat]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

Well for me, a friend was/is basically someone I can see myself enjoying being around and doing things like walking my dogs, watching movies, going out to eat or just sitting around and talking/laughing. It is hugely based on personality for me and having a lot in common. Thats's all I thought I felt with my T... but since I don't think I can post pics here?? I will just type some of the stuff directly that the paper says that fits my T...

"Prompting events for feeling love"
--- A person does things you particularly value or admire
---You share a special experience together with a person
---You have exceptionally good communication with a person
---Being with someone you have fun with
---A person offers/gives you something you want, need or desire

"Interpretations of events that prompt love feelings"
---Believing a person loves, needs or appreciates you
---Judging a person's personality as wonderful, pleasing or attractive
---Believing a person can be counted on and will be there for you

"Biological Changes and Experiences of love"
---Feeling excited/fully of energy
---Feeling self confident
---Feeling warm, trusting and secure
---Feeling relaxed/calm
---Wanting the best for a person
---Wanting to give things to a person
---Wanting to see/spend time with a person
---Wanting physical or emotional closeness (it also says sex but I don't have that desire)

"Expressions and Actions of love"
---Expressing positive feelings for a person
---Eye contact/mutual gaze
---Touching, hugging etc
---Smiling
---Sharing time/experiences with a person

"After effects of love"
---Only seeing their positive side
---Daydreaming, forgetfulness
---Openess and trust
---Feeling "alive"
---Remembering and imagining other positive events

This is basically the parts of it that fit for me

A lot of those checkboxes fit me too. Yikes when did that happen?
I am trying so hard to stay grounded about my own feelings what a mess gets stirred up I wish I knew what to say. I had an uneasy feeling your t was close to crossing a line then mine went and did something kind but did not think it through. Feelings blah.

[UnclePete]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

So my T gave me some papers from DBT about emotions, some of you may know what they are, but it basically describes various emotions in detail and gives examples and also tells you how you may feel and think about certain things, he chose 6 specific ones for me that fit my needs.

Well one of them was love.... and he said that he was printing it because he thinks it would be good for me to understand love more from a human standpoint, because i said previously i only love my dogs and only ever felt love from my dogs.... anyway as I was reading through, minus the sexual stuff, everything was basically describing how I feel about him

I am thinking he intentionally picked it in hopes to get me to admit/accept that or something as it was a really random choice since I never brought love up at all today. I feel so shameful about this now.... and I feel silly that he probably saw all this in me long before I was truly aware of it, I only ever thought I felt friend like feelings.

I want to know in a way if he chose it because he thinks I do have love feelings for him or if it was more general but I'm scared, I can't bring this up after all the stuff we recently had go on.... I can't believe according to the papers I feel love for someone who only has limited interest/care in me, what on earth is wrong with me? Sigh...

Please NOTHING is wrong with you, but I understand the feeling. I am in Love with my T and I am telling her tomorrow. I'm sick to death about it and have not stopped thinking about her. I don't know what to do with these feelings, when I know I'm going to get hurt. I can't help how I feel about her, I love her. The one thing I do know it NOTHING is wrong with me and NOTHING is wrong with you. You can feel how you feel, thanks OK. Even if it hurts like this does me.

[maybeblue]

DP: It does sound like love, but not romantic love. I also don't think there's anything wrong with loving him or anything wrong with you. It does show you are capable of loving people. That's a good thing.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by maybeblue

DP: It does sound like love, but not romantic love. I also don't think there's anything wrong with loving him or anything wrong with you. It does show you are capable of loving people. That's a good thing.

oh i know its not romantic love. i'd never go back if i felt that.
I'm just not used to love in general.... and frankly if what i feel for him is that, I'm not interested, the worst part of T for me has been dealing with these feelings. i hate them so much, i am used to people staying safe and distant with me, i like it that way

this is too much, too weird. plus there is no way anyone would love me in this sense or more.... i dont believe that for 1 second. so even though its something i am capable of, ill save my love for dogs

Dp,
Sometimes we try to deny something to keep us safe. I am not saying you are doing that but I think its worth looking at it. You say if it was romantic, you wouldnt go back so there could be a reason there that would stop you from acknowledging anything more.

How would you feel if he told you he had romantic feelings for you?

What I am saying is that a lot of us have an electra complex and it is really hard to say oh its just this kind of love or that. Feelings can be so complex that half the time we can not even be fully aware of whats going on. I would just encourage you to be honest and open to the possibility of there being more to your feelings.

Guilt and shame can make us want to control things so we dont feel bad or embarrass ourselves.

My main point though is to be ok enough that if you did feel more for him that you would still be able to work through that. Ts should be able to handle romantic feelings and use it to the clients advantage in the healing process.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by Coming up tails

How would you feel if he told you he had romantic feelings for you?

Honestly, I'd laugh.... and then I would feel very uncomfortable. The idea of a relationship in that sense with anyone is just too weird for me. I also do not believe anyone would want/like me that way, hence the laughter

I don't think it is though, romantic love has more of a sexual tone and I've never had that, thankfully. I am far too shamed about stuff of a sexual nature due to how I grew up that if I even thought of him sexually, I'd ghost him or tell him I quit and not go back and he knows that.

I think it just love.... I'm not sure how it's possible to have real romantic love for someone who doesn't feel anything for you anyway...

I think we are similar in some ways.

When we feel defective its easy to hide behind it,. To think oh I would never sleep with a T but really it might be cause we are ashamed of our body for example more than a feeling of right or wrong. Thats just an example.

My hating myself and feelings of defectiveness almost feel like they keep me safe. Just like feeling like no one would want you. What if that shame wasnt there?

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by Coming up tails

My hating myself and feelings of defectiveness almost feel like they keep me safe. Just like feeling like no one would want you. What if that shame wasnt there?

It does keep me safe but it also is based on a lot of my history with friends etc. I wish I could imagine a life without shame... no idea but I'm sure it's great. Heck I had shame for the longest time about hugging him, I would spend a lot of time in session apologizing for it, even though it was mutually agreed on and I told him I could not believe he wasn't repulsed and to be honest if he was, I understand etc.

One of my hardest sessions ever was admitting to him that I liked and craved the hugs... The shame was so bad I nearly threw up. He handled it well, thankfully I got to a point where It feels normal now. The shame with that has left... but there would still be shame about it if my family ever found out

I guess I'm confused on how romantic love is possible here when I never have wanted or thought anything sexual with him. I feel like its' the same type of love people have for their family or friends or neighbors etc, not with a person they are intimate with and such. I am really weirded out by the idea that he gave me this sheet intentionally because he senses something more than I am aware of and It makes me want to run away and apologize lol

[AllHeart]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

I want to know in a way if he chose it because he thinks I do have love feelings for him or if it was more general but I'm scared, I can't bring this up after all the stuff we recently had go on.... I can't believe according to the papers I feel love for someone who only has limited interest/care in me, what on earth is wrong with me? Sigh...

First, there is nothing wrong with you in the least!! Second, what else was on the paper? Could the purpose of this topic have been chosen as a way to learn to start loving yourself so you can love others type thing? Third, there is nothing wrong with you in the least!!

I do think the timing of this sheet is off, no matter what his intentions for it are. I don't like how he continues to send you mixed messages, especially after everything you have revealed to him lately. When the t's words don't match their actions, the client suffers miserably, unfortunately.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by AllHeart

First, there is nothing wrong with you in the least!! Second, what else was on the paper? Could the purpose of this topic have been chosen as a way to learn to start loving yourself so you can love others type thing? Third, there is nothing wrong with you in the least!!

I do think the timing of this sheet is off, no matter what his intentions for it are. I don't like how he continues to send you mixed messages, especially after everything you have revealed to him lately. When the t's words don't match their actions, the client suffers miserably, unfortunately.

The only part of the paper I didn't type was the sexual references and similar words for love.

Anyway ya I get that, it's tough because on the one hand I'm glad he is acting normal with me still, it makes me feel comfortable but on the other hand, It is a constant reminder of what I badly want but can never have and it's killing me.

I don't wanna keep hashing on it though in session, he will think I am too dumb to understand the "rules".

Originally Posted by DP_2017

oh i know its not romantic love. i'd never go back if i felt that.
I'm just not used to love in general.... and frankly if what i feel for him is that, I'm not interested, the worst part of T for me has been dealing with these feelings. i hate them so much, i am used to people staying safe and distant with me, i like it that way

this is too much, too weird. plus there is no way anyone would love me in this sense or more.... i dont believe that for 1 second. so even though its something i am capable of, ill save my love for dogs

I think many people experience emotions (negative, positive, or mixed) surfacing in therapy that they were previously unaware of or suppressed/dissociated. Some describe this as the greatest success of therapy although almost always painful, at least sometimes.

There is then the part "plus there is no way anyone would love me in this sense or more.... i dont believe that for 1 second". You feel this way about yourself but, at the same time, you did desire being close to that therapist and having a special relationship that is different from ordinary therapy, you posted about those desires here many times before. Maybe not in a romantic way, but it definitely sounded like you craved being loved and uniquely appreciated by your T and maybe even believed it for a while. Now you feel ashamed and disappointed to the point of kinda rejecting love altogether...

Also, I wonder why you ponder the possibility of romantic love at all if it's something that is really not part of your experience? Why the need to think about it at all? It's almost a bit like you grasp on it somehow but hold it and are looking at it from a distance as though it's not you, cannot be part of you... but still interested and it draws your focus for some reason.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

I think many people experience emotions (negative, positive, or mixed) surfacing in therapy that they were previous unaware of or suppressed/dissociated. Some describe this as the greatest success of therapy although almost always painful, at least sometimes.

There is then the part "plus there is no way anyone would love me in this sense or more.... i dont believe that for 1 second". You feel this way about yourself but, at the same time, you did desire being close to that therapist and having a special relationship that is different from ordinary therapy, you posted about those desires here many times before. Maybe not in a romantic way, but it definitely sounded like you craved being loved and uniquely appreciated by your T and maybe even believed it for a while. Now you feel ashamed and disappointed to the point of kinda rejecting love altogether...

Also, I wonder why you ponder the possibility of romantic love at all if it's something that is really not part of your experience? Why the need to think about it at all? It's almost a bit like you grasp on it somehow but hold it and are looking at it from a distance as though it's not you, cannot be part of you... but still interested and it draws your focus for some reason.

I've been hurt/rejected by people that meant a lot to me, as friends before and I reject the idea of a relationship for many reasons but 1 being my horrible example of my parents growing up. It's only been tossed around because my T thought that's what I was feeling when I brought up the touch desire and a few people online have suggested it, but I don't think I feel it so it's confusing to me why people assume it.

I've never had a desire for a relationship like that. In some ways I feel like a loser compared to my peers due to my massive lack of experience and I would like the experience of a date and such but not an actual relationship with anyone. At the same time, I also don't want a date because of my social and trust issues being so bad. I think I'd ghost them. I am very very avoidant of social things with people.

Sometimes people assume things about someone for many reasons that have little or nothing to with the other person. Maybe your T assumed that because you were so intensely drawn to him but avoid romance in everyday life, perhaps he thought that he brought out a hidden wish from you. Or maybe projections - actually he had those thoughts even if you think it is impossible. Or perhaps he thinks that you should work on your avoidance about romantic relationships, but if so, pushing something like that is pretty inappropriate.

[toomanycats]

I feel like it needs to be said...

love is not a shameful thing.
Feeling love isn't bad, isn't a shameful thing.

It's hard when the love isn't returned in the same way we feel and give it. It hurts. It can feel embarrassing. Makes us question our worthiness of love. But these are the lies we tell ourselves: that we aren't worthy; that if we were just better, worthier, more attractive, more successful, etc. etc. - then they would love us back the same way. But, that's not how it works.

One of the hardest things to accept is that we are, in fact, good enough - worthy of love - that we are enough. Because, if we are enough... then what does that mean about the things that've happened to us? the people who hurt us? We like blame - and, if others won't admit to and take it, we assign it to ourselves - it is safer, it feels better to think "this happened/someone did this because I'm not good enough" because that enforces the idea that we can be safe from these things -- if we're good enough, we're safe. If we're distant enough, we can be safe. However our brains choose to go with this.

But, that's not true.
Because people hurt other people, and it's not something you can stop or prevent.
Life's not safe. Relationships aren't safe. They are risky - always. And no matter what -- no matter how much you avoid them, change yourself, etc. etc., you can't be safe from suffering.

So, you love your T. That's beautiful. It's not shameful. You are good enough. Your love is a beautiful thing.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by toomanycats

I feel like it needs to be said...

love is not a shameful thing.
Feeling love isn't bad, isn't a shameful thing.

It's hard when the love isn't returned in the same way we feel and give it. It hurts. It can feel embarrassing. Makes us question our worthiness of love. But these are the lies we tell ourselves: that we aren't worthy; that if we were just better, worthier, more attractive, more successful, etc. etc. - then they would love us back the same way. But, that's not how it works.

One of the hardest things to accept is that we are, in fact, good enough - worthy of love - that we are enough. Because, if we are enough... then what does that mean about the things that've happened to us? the people who hurt us? We like blame - and, if others won't admit to and take it, we assign it to ourselves - it is safer, it feels better to think "this happened/someone did this because I'm not good enough" because that enforces the idea that we can be safe from these things -- if we're good enough, we're safe. If we're distant enough, we can be safe. However our brains choose to go with this.

But, that's not true.
Because people hurt other people, and it's not something you can stop or prevent.
Life's not safe. Relationships aren't safe. They are risky - always. And no matter what -- no matter how much you avoid them, change yourself, etc. etc., you can't be safe from suffering.

So, you love your T. That's beautiful. It's not shameful. You are good enough. Your love is a beautiful thing.

Logically you are right but it will take me a long time to really believe these things. I was consistently told things related to guys like crushes,touching, love, sex etc was wrong and dirty. Most of me still thinks that. It's one of the things I'm hoping to work through in therapy

[BudFox]

Therapists are seductive on so many levels (I don't mean overtly sexually seductive). For example, sitting alone with you and holding direct eye contact, expressing interest in your life and your struggles. These are powerful stimuli. Then if the client responds to these stimuli -- which let's face it are psychological and emotional manipulations -- it's supposedly a sign of "issues" that need to be addressed. Christ, it's a setup.

It's degrading to be exposed before a person sitting in judgement and analysis, who gives away little or nothing. I found it hugely invasive and even violative. It's a recipe for a shame and humiliation.

[husband_traveler]

Originally Posted by BudFox

Therapists are seductive on so many levels (I don't mean overtly sexually seductive). For example, sitting alone with you and holding direct eye contact, expressing interest in your life and your struggles. These are powerful stimuli. Then if the client responds to these stimuli -- which let's face it are psychological and emotional manipulations -- it's supposedly a sign of "issues" that need to be addressed. Christ, it's a setup.

It's degrading to be exposed before a person sitting in judgement and analysis, who gives away little or nothing. I found it hugely invasive and even violative. It's a recipe for a shame and humiliation.

yes, it is as simple as that, and as complex as it might become because of your issues and, specifically, because this kind of love is something special.

Something spacial because it is, indeed, a tool that the therapist has to use to sort out, analyze and (possibly) solve your items.
It is not an ordinary love, which may or may not be returned: it is something that needs to be expressed, analyzed, used.

The therapist is essential into making all of this develop in the right direction and in accompanying you through it.

Anyway, love is always a very good thing.

[UnclePete]

Originally Posted by toomanycats

I feel like it needs to be said...

love is not a shameful thing.
Feeling love isn't bad, isn't a shameful thing.

It's hard when the love isn't returned in the same way we feel and give it. It hurts. It can feel embarrassing. Makes us question our worthiness of love. But these are the lies we tell ourselves: that we aren't worthy; that if we were just better, worthier, more attractive, more successful, etc. etc. - then they would love us back the same way. But, that's not how it works.

One of the hardest things to accept is that we are, in fact, good enough - worthy of love - that we are enough. Because, if we are enough... then what does that mean about the things that've happened to us? the people who hurt us? We like blame - and, if others won't admit to and take it, we assign it to ourselves - it is safer, it feels better to think "this happened/someone did this because I'm not good enough" because that enforces the idea that we can be safe from these things -- if we're good enough, we're safe. If we're distant enough, we can be safe. However our brains choose to go with this.

But, that's not true.
Because people hurt other people, and it's not something you can stop or prevent.
Life's not safe. Relationships aren't safe. They are risky - always. And no matter what -- no matter how much you avoid them, change yourself, etc. etc., you can't be safe from suffering.

So, you love your T. That's beautiful. It's not shameful. You are good enough. Your love is a beautiful thing.

That's about all I know and can do right now. I do love her and she knows it. When I told my T I loved her I was shaking and broke down a bit. She handled it perfectly. We know what I need to work on and she knows my feelings haven't changed and it's all going to take time to heal. My T even wants to bring my wife into one of our sessions so we can work on it together. Of course we won't mention the feelings I have for my T, but my T knows why I fell so hard for her and wants to work on that with me and my wife.
I did learn to NOT be ashamed about how I feel. I punish myself enough already.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by husband_traveler

yes, it is as simple as that, and as complex as it might become because of your issues and, specifically, because this kind of love is something special.

Something spacial because it is, indeed, a tool that the therapist has to use to sort out, analyze and (possibly) solve your items.
It is not an ordinary love, which may or may not be returned: it is something that needs to be expressed, analyzed, used.

The therapist is essential into making all of this develop in the right direction and in accompanying you through it.

Anyway, love is always a very good thing.

If it's unrequited, ambiguous, artificial, purchased, clinical therapy "love"... it might be a very bad thing.

People with a history of rejection or shame or deprivation might experience this as profoundly injurious. OP is apparently experiencing shame over this.

This scenario violates basic first-do-no-harm principles, by trapping the client in a humiliating and disorienting one-way infatuation from which there is no easy escape.

As I said, i found it a violation. Nothing was sorted out, nothing solved, nothing developed in the right direction, and the therapist did not accompany me, instead she bailed in the middle of it. I have read hundreds of similar accounts all over the internet.

[SalingerEsme]

[QUOTE=DP_2017;6008859

I guess I'm confused on how romantic love is possible here when I never have wanted or thought anything sexual with him. I feel like its' the same type of love people have for their family or friends or neighbors etc, not with a person they are intimate with and such. I am really weirded out by the idea that he gave me this sheet intentionally because he senses something more than I am aware of and It makes me want to run away and apologize lol[/QUOTE]


That feeling that your T might have dramatic irony or know something about you that you don't know about yourself is at once greatly unsettling and exactly why we pay them. It is a squirmy feeling.

This seems like this is a growth moment, a coming to terms with feelings for him, a stepping forward, a developmental step. You can almost see him ushering you out into the world of adult love and relationships, or the very first glimmer of that, (even if it ultimately cannot be with him or you continue to decide it is not for you).

The hugs do confuse things in my mind about your relationship to your T, although I know there are many kinds of hugs and many T's allow them.

Even if my T allowed hugs, because he is an attractive male of my own age and we talk about intimate things, I would not hug him. Hugs go more in my BF's jurisdiction, and I would feel. . disloyal(?). I don't have a problem with hugging my male of female friends in a different way from my BF, but my T is not my friend- it is so intense conversation wise it just seems wiser not to let it get physical too. That is not to say I think you shouldn't hug your T or that the hugs make it more likely to feel romantic love because every situation is so different.

[DP_2017]

SE-- I totally get the confusion on hugs. It is "Rare" from what I know, esp with male T and female clients.... and full body hugs. He has openly said he usually only hugs clients if they need comfort but most he never hugs at all, so it's weird.

Our whole "relationship" confuses me to be honest, as much as these feelings do.

[BudFox]

I only hugged the one therapist at the end of the final session. She initiated it (i am male). Like everything that came before, it was confusing and ambiguous. I regret it, along with most or all of the other intimacies.