Proving the existence of God?

Radio Flyerb Yes, I think that is most correct.

When I talk with those of Jewish faith, those asking "those" types of questions esp. the one What is hell? That is my direct answer: the absence of God.

But I cannot believe that my God created anything bad...or evil. That took someone, something apart from God. Actually, the way I believe is that God made all things good. Satan took it and formed it for his evil ways. And I think this is borne out in reality? Look at anything that is evil (so to speak) and you will find at the base of it, the original good.

First, I didn't mean anything by that comment except that most people cannot grasp the concept of god. The concept of god isn't something that can be proven. You just have to have faith.

Second, I have no need to quote any 'scientists' (as you put it). I speak for myself. Besides, most 'scientists' that I have read about usually go the other way. Think about it.

If I offended you in anyway, Sky, I am sorry. It was not my intention. I was continuing in this thread because of a fellow member of ours (or yours I guess) on another thread, asked me to. I see that you are the 'community greeter' and I wouldn't want to offend you, so if you would like me to stop posting, just say the word. It will end there, I promise.

Think much alphamicky? (glad you do...)

Another interjection and something else to ponder:

Heb 11:1 - "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." and 1Pe 4:19 - "So, then, also let those who are suffering in harmony with the will of God keep on commending their souls to a faithful Creator while they are doing good. " (italics mine).

I find faith and worship can be, and are, two separate things, although one cannot work without the other.

As stated in the above scriptures, God has promised that for our being faithful to Him to the end (death or Har'maggedon), there is an assured expectation that what He promises us (to restore mankind and the earth to paradise conditions) will be given to us, though we cannot really see (literally) that this is taking place (and has been since Christ's death and ressurection). "Faith" in this gift of everlasting life under perfect conditions, helps us to endure hardships in this "world." God "has painted a beautiful picture of what that life will be like" when that time has come to pass.

However, we should not serve Him solely out of a desire for a reward. We ought to serve Him because we love Him(Mr 12:30) and we know that what he is teaching us (through the Bible) is the way in which we were meant to live (2Tim 3:16).

Worship. Well, you put very succinctly:
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As a Christian, your worship isn't a part of your life, it IS your life. Everything you do should be as if you are doing it for God and Jesus. When you dedicate everything you do in life to God, and always do it as if you are doing that task for God alone, then you are worshiping God in the most sincere way.

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But it seems like you are, in a way, contradicting yourself in your last paragraph. No. Contradicting may not the word I am looking for here...

If you take a look again at 2Pe 4:19 and the part that I italicized, faith can be considered separate because one ought to have faith "WHILE DOING GOOD WORKS." (or put another way - while worshiping, as you stated above).

One also can have faith (belief in God and his Word), yet do nothing in the way of good works (like living as God wants us to and "in the most sincere way.") The Bible states that even the demons believe in God and knows (and have complete faith in the fact) that God will eventually destroy them. They have no doubts as to what their fate is for the choice they have made. But are their works any good? Hardly.

So, what am I trying to say? I have no idea any more....

Ok, so faith and worship (according to His will (terms)) can and are two separate things, yet both are needed to be truly connected to God.

So when you state:

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I think a life lived in faith is the ultimate form of worship

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it is kind of contradicting to what you said earlier that the ultimate form of worship is:
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When you dedicate everything you do in life to God, and always do it as if you are doing that task for God alone, then you are worshiping God in the most sincere way.

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Where is faith in this statement? It is not here, only worship is. Faith would therefore be in the knowing that what you are doing is "right" in God's eyes and worship is the "doing of right" in accordance to God's will.

And again, one cannot truly be serving God fully, because "...faith without works is dead." (James 2:26) Likewise, works without faith would then also be dead (like the eventual fate of the fallen angels).

I am sure your interpretation was meant to include both; I just felt there was a contradiction in how it was expressed. I could be wrong though, in how I am interpreting what you meant.

What are your thoughts on this?

Altered State

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I, for some strange reason, cannot find the original thread that you speak of. What is the title of this illusive thread?

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You have already found it. It is called "A Higher Power," submitted by Rhapsody.

AS

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Choosing to behave like a bird isn't the only action that would have dire consequences. We make choices daily where the execusion isn't successful at the very least, and at worst, would have the same consequence as trying to fly.

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It's just that if you take this statement entirely on it's own, it's, well, funny! (okay, probably just to me...)

lol AS.

I think that both are good statements, though not necessarily complete.

Living a life of faith is pretty good worship. However, we do good works to show our faith, otherwise, it means nothing to others.

Not quite following what you are saying here...
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Living a life of faith is pretty good worship. However, we do good works to show our faith, otherwise, it means nothing to others.

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otherwise, it means nothing to others.

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And I really am confused with this. There is only One that we should be concerned about pleasing, no?

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AlteredState01 said:
Not quite following what you are saying here...
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Living a life of faith is pretty good worship. However, we do good works to show our faith, otherwise, it means nothing to others.

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otherwise, it means nothing to others.

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And I really am confused with this. There is only One that we should be concerned about pleasing, no?

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From My POV.....

I think what Sky was saying is - That if we claim to be a child of God and yet our life and daily actions do not portray this to others with in the world then we have failed (failed as a witness to our Lord, our higher power) .... for every unsaved person in the world is watching - and as the saying of True LoVe goes - - - ACTION SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.


LoVe,
Rhapsody -

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alphamicky said:
It's ok Sky, there aren't too many people in this world that can 'truly' grasp the concept of god.

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AMEN!!! - You are indeed a person after my own heart.... for WE (the world - saved & unsaved) cannot contain God in the words of a book - He goes far past that of a book and into being our Spiritual Guide our Higher Power (no matter what name one calls him by).
... I personally call Him - Spirit

I understand where YOU are coming from on your POV and what YOU are trying to explain to others.... and in IMHO few will grasp this unique meaning of the word GOD, hence why my first thread was properly locked, for the misunderstanding of a Higher Power was taken the wrong way - therefore thought to be a debate started by me of Gods Existence.

I would NEVER debate the reality of my Higher Power..... my Spiritual Guide that lives within each and every one of us... waiting to be found beyond that of a book.


LoVe,
Rhapsody -

My Locked Thread: http://forums.psychcentral.com/showf...&o=186&fpart=1

My New Thread: http://forums.psychcentral.com/showf...&o=186&fpart=1

It struck me funny in its original form, too, but I just went with the analogy. Didn't I explain clearly enough that there's worse choices we can make?

AS, you did it!! I've been looking for this passage for days but I couldn't remember the wording quite right!!

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. [italics mine]

I like to put that verse together with this one:

2 Corinthians 5:7
for we walk by faith, not by sight--

I think I can sleep tonight now! LOL

Sorry Alteredstate...lol...sometimes I can get a bit winded(and booring). Apparently I should keep my posts on this to a minimum.

Hmmm my name keeps getting mentioned with "those" who cannot fathom God.

I have a very real, personal, and learned knowledge of God and His ways. I have lived His ways... and served Him to my utmost...

so I'm still unsure why some think to include me in this grouping

[quote=alteredstate]"Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld."

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This is something that we might just have to dissagree with. Faith to me isn't something we desire or hope for. It is something that is a part of our life and is a part of us.

Faith is distinct from hope in that faith is typically general, rather than specific to an aspect, and in contrast to a "false hope" in a fantasy, the object of faith typically transcends what can be proven scientifically and sometimes exceeds what can be objectively defined. Faith can mean believing unconditionally. It can be acceptance of something that one has been told by one who is considered trustworthy. Faith, by its very nature, requires belief outside of known fact(I believe). Faith is formed through instinct, intuition, meditation, communing with nature, prayer, or perceived usefulness of a belief system.

Although faith has generated many roots in religion, it is not necessarily a religious word (like having faith that you have enough fuel to make it to the gas station , or that you have faith that you will get your next job) and is not exercised solely in God and god alone, but can apply to any situation where judgements are made irrespective of evidence.

Faith in something means to have experience with that something and then, due to this experience, judging and concluding so that you can predict an action of this something in a positive way. So for example a sister may leave the house for university, she returns in three years time to find her sister has not opened her diary which she explicitly asked her not too, even though her sister had every opportunity to open it without her knowledge or consent. The older sister would now have faith in the younger sister, judging by that experience she concludes that she can predict that anything else she trusts with here sister is safe. This is faith, but only then does faith and worship go hand in hand (like your confusion with what I said). Worship falls (sort of) along the same lines.

Warship is also something that people do that doesn't have to do with god. You can warship anything (I warship the 2007 corvette for example) for any reason. It's what is inside you. What you care about. Think about it.

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_Sky said:
Hmmm my name keeps getting mentioned with "those" who cannot fathom God.

I have a very real, personal, and learned knowledge of God and His ways. I have lived His ways... and served Him to my utmost...

so I'm still unsure why some think to include me in this grouping

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Where was your name mentioned in that way. I am sorry if I did. I didn't mean to. I have gone through the whole thread (three times now) and I apparently am missing something. I don't see it. Sorry Sky.

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Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. [italics mine]

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"Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld."

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Either way, it reads the same to me. Assured - substance... Evidence - Evident demonstration. Pretty straight forward if you ask me... but then I've noticed... you haven't asked me. LOL

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Hmmm my name keeps getting mentioned with "those" who cannot fathom God.

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It's because they don't know you, Sky. Give them some time.

don't worry Sky, your faith shines through

You are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the definition found in the Bible:

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Heb 11:1 - "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." (italics mine)

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Your statement:
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Although faith has generated many roots in religion, it is not necessarily a religious word

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I suppose when one does not take the meaning of faith in the context of religion, then of course, it would not be considered a religious word (such as in the situation you describe re the two sisters).

However, I don't get what you are saying, here. Faith - the word itself - is mentioned countless number of times in the Bible.

Again, I am getting contradictory statements from you and am getting lost in the rhetoric:

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Faith, by its very nature, requires belief outside of known fact(I believe). Faith is formed through instinct, intuition, meditation, communing with nature, prayer, or perceived usefulness of a belief system.

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and

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Faith in something means to have experience with that something and then, due to this experience, judging and concluding so that you can predict an action of this something in a positive way.

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Which of these two definitions do you subscribe to, then?

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Warship is also something that people do that doesn't have to do with god. You can warship anything (I warship the 2007 corvette for example) for any reason. It's what is inside you. What you care about. Think about it.

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As for your definition of worship - never disagreed with you on that. Thought about it and still agree with you on this point.

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Oooh, new 'vette? Now that I could see myself getting caught up in worshipping!! How does she handle, by the way?

OOOOOOOH!!! Got it now!

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I would NEVER debate the reality of my Higher Power.....

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I agree, but it is sure hard NOT to debate his existance with those that do not believe, don't you think?

I awlays feel compelled to challenge their views. The problem with that is, I never feel as though I have enough knowledge, nor the ability to properly express it. I guess this is where God's spirit would help - I just keep getting in its way. Stupid ego / pride of mine...

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PS why does my "quoted" section never include the original poster's name in it, like the others do? It used to, I thought...

That is one thing I don't care for in this matter, myself, to debate the existence of God. It's filed under foolish talk, imo. People who have not met God cannot understand such talk, imo. It's like trying to describe the taste of a sapodilla to someone who has never tasted any fruit. The main goal might always be to show them to God, and allow Him to do what He does in revealing Himself to them. Certainly I can do no more.

In my personal experience I find that people who truly debate (argue w/ deep passion) the existence of God are really just looking for Him / seeking this God they have heard so much about.

And - some of these people may find Him in our willingness to share our knowledge and life experiences with them..... as a witness tool.



LoVe,
Rhapsody -

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AlteredState01 said:
PS why does my "quoted" section never include the original poster's name in it, like the others do? It used to, I thought...

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Are you cutting out the first line of the quote section that has the person name listed in it (and) the word "said"....... ?

Proof of Gods Existence..... We all have it within US

Jesus did what people could not do...
Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.

Jesus Christ showed God to be...
gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although God views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan. God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.

Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven...
Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you....... This is God, in action.

Does God exist?
If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We are told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

God does not force us to believe in him, though he could...
Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ.

If you need to know more about Jesus/God and reasons to believe in Him....... Just Ask - Seek and YOU shall Find.

LINK: http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html


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LoVe,
Rhapsody - ((( hugs )))