Proving the existence of God?

I am clicking the UBB Code Quote, then copying the portion I want from the originators post. Other than that, I have no idea where to get their name from and the word "said."

I'm not too swift at this type of stuff...

AS

Altered, I find it easier to just click on the quote reply (3rd one, farthest right) button first and let it take me to the reply box?

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Perna said:
Altered, I find it easier to just click on the quote reply (3rd one, farthest right) button first and let it take me to the reply box?



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YES "AS"..... that is where YOU will find the Persons Name and the word Said that I mentioned - Thanks Perna for the extra INFO.

LoVe,
Rhapsody -

Back on topic...

Sigh I know I keep trying to not post too many words here, and consequently can't possibly cover the entire thought

Right Rhapsody, people end up debating the existence of God when they are seeking.

They don't know how to find Him and they debate in their attempts. I know that isn't the way to find Him, so I don't go down that path but lead them on the correct (imo) path.

please forgive my ignorance, but when we debate aren't we trying to defend our God, he being the supreme being doesn't need defending, he just wants our love

Angie, Sweety, Christian colleges that prepare men and women for the ministry and missionary field teach a class called "Apologetics." Here is the meaning. 1 : systematic argumentative discourse in defense (as of a doctrine)
2 : a branch of theology devoted to the defense of the divine origin and authority of Christianity

Jerry has looked over my shoulder several times and every time, he's said that "neither side can win. You (generally speaking) are either going to believe or you're not." It annoys the heck outta me, but you know, he's right. Either you're predesposed to believing or you're not. But yet, Jesus gave his desciples a commandment to go into the world and tell everyone about His saving grace.

Sky, please help me with the Scripture verse. Bible Gateway can't find it. Oy!

Why *I* know God exists:

1) A predesposition to knowing there is a God through my upbringing.

2) When I divorced my first husband and was having monetary problems raising two kids on my own with hardly any child support, there were times I'd run out of food or wasn't able to pay a bill. Not really praying I'd say "God, if someone owes me some money, let them pay me now." Before I was in dire straights, there was a check in the mail for just exactly what I needed.

3) When my mother lay dying, suffering with agonal breathing, I called the minister of our church and asked him if he would come pray that God stop my mom's suffering and take her home. He came. He asked me if I would be okay if God didn't take her immediately; was I okay with GOD'S decision. After a short struggle, I had to answer "yes", not only because personally, I couldn't and wouldn't do anything about it, but mostly because I wanted to freely say "Father, not my will but YOURS" because God's plan is perfect. Within 45 minutes, my mother had stopped her suffering. My response when she failed to struggle for the next breath was "How great Thou art!!"

4) Shortly after my mom passed, I was at the cemetary putting fresh flowers on her grave. My heart was heavy but not only because of the loss of my mother. It was heavy because my only daughter was in the talons of a young man that was a replica of my first husband only worse. Not only was he a control freak, sex pervert but he used "a private prayer time" with my daughter to try and brainwash her to his needs. He was also trying to turn her as well as the college group of our church against me. They actually prayed to "bind Satan in the mind of Tomi"!

At the grave site, for the first time, I beat the ground and said "God, my rosebud, my precious first born is in YOUR hands! I don't know what to do about all of this!" A week later, my daughter, herself, broke up with this young man.

5) After my separation from Jerry, I had quite a hard struggle both emotionally and monetarily. I was staying with a friend because I had no place else to go. There was a hair's breath between me and homelessness.

My friend didn't want me getting comfortable and did some things that she knew I didn't appreciate, like watching witchcraft TV shows. During one of these times, I was walking around outside, wondering what I could do to find my own place. Out of despair and up from my gutt came "OH, GOD!!!!!!!!" Three days later, my oldest son called me and playfully let me know that he had a mobile home in mind to buy for me... my "little tin can." That's exactly what it was! It had been "manufactured" in 1960, had no insulation and only three rooms, if you want to call them that, and a bathroom.

NOW I live in a mobile home that is only 6 yrs old, has two bedrooms and is BEAUTIFUL! It has superb insulation, a heater that works, a dishwasher and other luxuries. Some may think they are necessities but not me.

My prayer wasn't really a prayer. All I did was call on God and he knew what I needed and gave it to me "shaken down, pressed down" and overflowing.

"You ask me how I know He lives"?? I KNOW He lives beyond any shadow of a doubt. I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. That He was crusified, died and rose on the third day. I believe He assended into Heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father. I believe that He will return for His Church and take us to be with Him for ever and ever. Amen.

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_Sky said:
Right Rhapsody, people end up debating the existence of God when they are seeking.

They don't know how to find Him and they debate in their attempts. I know that isn't the way to find Him, so I don't go down that path but lead them on the correct (imo) path.

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I understand what you are saying and I agree..... but all to often some will not give up their debate and I too will not give up my quest to help them understand, therefore, I continue on with them - but not in a debating way myself, but rather in an information sharing communication, even thought they (the other party) may still try to debate every bit of proof that comes out of my mouth......
From my personal POV my best friend of 25 years would have never accepted Christ if I had thrown up my hands in frustration of her continuous debate / questioning manner to everything I said.... it took five years of this but in the end it was well worth it - to ME and to GOD.


LoVe,
Rhapsody - ((( hugs )))

Are you speaking about Isaiah 62:10? It seems to fit with what you are stating...

the argument from experience:

P1) i have the experience of god
P2) in order to experience something the object of your experience must exist
_________________________________
C) god exists!

> But don't schizophrenics, and others of us who experience hallucinations, counter this?

They show us that premiss two is false hence the argument does not go through to the conclusion. (That doesn't mean the conclusion is negated, it just means the conclusion isn't supported by this particular argument). There might be better arguments out there...

It shows us something about the nature of experience, however. While only the person knows whether they have an experience or not experiences are indeed known to diverge from their causes...

I think it is interesting to consider the arguments for the existence of god and the arguments against the existence of god (though I expect people would be offended if i talked about the latter even if i used them to point out how they fail...) that is a shame...

One thing that considering the arguments from both sides does is... To clarify the nature and role of faith.

Because the arguments seem to be stacked fairly evenly, you see. There are significant problems with the arguments from both sides. (Sometimes people don't like to look at the arguments because they are afraid they will be persuaded to lose their faith, I think). But quite the opposite is usually true...

People find their faith is strengthened...

Because whether to believe or not is not a matter of reason...

It is indeed a matter of faith...

or habit.

one shouldn't underestimate conditioning, i suppose...

if god is everywhere
and evil was the absence of god
then there couldn't be any evil because god is everywhere.

so
either
evil is not the absence of god
or god isn't everywhere (omnipresent) after all...

And I believe we may have come full circle in what I was trying to get across in my original post.

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How did I get to this stage? Knowledge. Knowledge about who exactly is this God that the Bible (in my case) says He is and what His agenda is? Not how it is interpreted by powerful and staunchly traditional organizations, not how it is interpreted by those who only focus on a few scriptures or only on a few books within the Bible, but by seeking to prove each and every thing that is taught to me (which is how God wants it to be) and making sure that there is no hypocrisy or contradictions that would cause me confusion about Him, and therefore, cause a weakening of my faith. It doesn’t even matter which version of the Bible I read (although some are much easier to read than others), because no matter how much any particular individual or religious organization may have “altered” some of the texts, the basic truths which He wants us to learn never, ever change. (That’s another amazing thing to me when I have compared the writings of several different Bibles in my quest for the truth).

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Because Christendom is so divided on the meanings and the definitions and all that "other" stuff, many believers (of God and Christ) and non-believers and even wannabe-believers, will always be pre-occupied with "debating" and end up missing the very simple message that the Bible brings in order to help us live our lives in as much peace, and with as much courage and endurement as we possibly can get, while still in this system of things.

God did not say this would be an easy task, for there are so many things that disrupt our perception and take our attention away (which will only get worse) from the basic message being taught.

But, as SeptemberMorn's "Jerry" stated, God does indeed already know who are His children and who aren't. It is us (we?) who do not know, so we must be careful in who and what we believe in and also how we conduct ourselves - are we really abiding by what God's will is to the best of our ability (because it is pretty straight forward) or our own (which is anything but straightforward).

Knowledge about just who God is - what His personality traits are (because we are made in His image) - ought to give one a good idea of what kind of standards He is asking us to live by, for our sake. Sure, there are much larger and deeper issues that God reveals in the Bible (which explains the "why we suffer" part mankind is always asking, and condemning, Him for), but these are beyond our control and have already been dealt with (just hasn't come to pass yet). The only ones we should be concerning ourselves with is ourselves and how close we are to the path of righteousness (how we conduct ourselves according to God's instructions).

Knowledge of God and how to approach Him, is key. He will give you the rest of what you need, as long as you continue to earnestly seek Him.

Thanks! I get it now! "Grab" the quote before you press reply....

Much appreciated, Perna!!!

(Love the picture! How did you know I was a "visual learner"?!!)

AS

God wrote my bible
_____________________
God exists!

(But if you don't already accept the conclusion you will not accept the premiss and there are many who accept the conclusion who have a different religious text in mind...)

I truly believe that only God Himself can prove His existence. Only God, through His Spirit will "convince" people of His existence when they are ready to receive it.