[AlteredState01]

Can we really do that? Can we actually prove to someone through our own experiences that God exists?

This question was raised by an individual the other day in this forum. What followed was a bevy of answers (except for one that was pointed out, I believe) that didn’t even come close to what the poster was looking for. The topic got sidetracked to the point where the post had to be shut down and re-opened, but this time, with much more explicit directions as to what this person was looking for. When I saw this, I must admit, I was taken aback. (I’m always being “taken aback” it seems). I could hear right through the computer screen, the frustration over the fact that so many of us completely missed the point of the question. And it was a very simple question! It was a simple question the first time it was posted and it was a simple question the second time. I was rather amused at how utterly and completely I had missed the point, because I even had to reconfirm (for a third time) EXACTLY what this person was looking for.

Then it dawned on me. If I could not even discern the meaning of a simple question, then I must not be listening very well, or better put, not at all. I do at times, “flip” what is being said in my mind because of my illness, but I realized that, when it comes to faith and God and learning and believing, one must be able to, or at least, put some effort into LISTENING! I didn’t do that. My illness does not preclude my understanding of God’s word. If I am truly looking for Him and His guidance, no illness will stop that from happening. I had taken it upon myself to try to convince her to believe without even once asking for guidance from THE ONLY ONE who could possibly make this happen! How arrogant of me, really, to believe that I alone, could do this! (It never ceases to amaze me, the depths of my own ego).

What did end up happening for me (and I must thank this person for this), is the realization that for quite some time now, I have not been listening at all! Oh sure, I had been praying almost every day, thanking God for all the good things in my life and expressing to Him all the pain and anguish I am constantly in and, of course, asking that He provide me with relief from this all-consuming illness of mine. But what I realized, is that for all the talking and complaining, and even thanking, I was not listening for any answers. To tell you the truth, I don’t think I even wanted to hear an answer. For I know that when I do hear an answer, it puts the onus back on me to adjust my life - my thinking, doing, and being – in order for me to benefit. That’s how it works for me; for everyone.

My God does not take away my free will by forcing me to accept His guidance. I must act on that guidance if it is to make a difference in my life and/or situation, and I clearly was not doing that. Unfortunately, it was made very clear to me, oddly enough, through the frustration I was causing someone else! (Amazing! The realization, not the frustration I contributed to…) It was a humbling experience. One that I am grateful for, and ashamed of, as well; but I also know both feelings are a part of the learning process and which I am (now, once again) able to accept.

As I searched my past for a story to tell that would reflect what was being asked, there was really nothing incredulous or fantastically outstanding that happened to me, that would or even could move another to believe or make God more real. Indeed, I myself would find such incredulous stories to be just that – incredulous, highly suspect and almost impossible to believe – even though I am a believer! (oh, the irony of it all).

The only incredible or fantastic thing about my experiences, is that it happened to ME – at a time when I asked for it, needed it, and sincerely wanted it – and that I was able to discern without a doubt, who the source was that helped me to experience what I experienced!

As I look back at all these precious moments, they are, of course, incredible in my eyes, but to try to explain to someone else the deeply personal feelings of comfort and peace I received would simply come out flat and unremarkable in the telling. It would be the same as if hearing an incredulous story of say, how one experienced a “miracle of grand proportions,” except just on the opposite end of the scale, so to speak. (I am not stating that no one has ever experienced something that “miraculous” in their lives, for I believe even the simplest things that have been revealed to me are miraculous in themselves).

I find myself saddened at the fact that I could never explain to the extent I would like, the feelings, the knowing, even the moments of realization that there IS a power much, much greater than one could imagine out there, and on our side, too! It is an awesome and sometimes very scary insight to have, and at times, almost too much for me to accept, because my mind is so very closed and my heart so unwilling to open up.

What I do know is, when I am willing to accept God as He is – unconditionally - like He accepts me, then I am able to hear Him loud and clear!

How did I get to this stage? Knowledge. Knowledge about who exactly is this God that the Bible (in my case) says He is and what His agenda is? Not how it is interpreted by powerful and staunchly traditional organizations, not how it is interpreted by those who only focus on a few scriptures or only on a few books within the Bible, but by seeking to prove each and every thing that is taught to me (which is how God wants it to be) and making sure that there is no hypocrisy or contradictions that would cause me confusion about Him, and therefore, cause a weakening of my faith. It doesn’t even matter which version of the Bible I read (although some are much easier to read than others), because no matter how much any particular individual or religious organization may have “altered” some of the texts, the basic truths which He wants us to learn never, ever change. (That’s another amazing thing to me when I have compared the writings of several different Bibles in my quest for the truth).

I, personally, do not accept the idea that some things are just a “divine mystery” for I know from my studies that God has made clear exactly what He has chosen to reveal to us and what he won’t. He even explains why He does not reveal these things. Although I do not like that, I must and want and need to - accept and trust that He knows better. (Many have great difficulty with this, which can and does lead those who demand to know such things before they are willing to believe, away from accepting His truths simply because of their unwillingness to accept this fact).

Quite frankly, I doubt that I, nor anyone, would be able to fully accept the real reality that we all would like Him to reveal without going insane! I look at how the world is today and that in itself causes great imbalance in me – imagine if I had the whole truth? I just know I would not be able to accept, or comprehend it, and doubt very much that I could live with that knowledge. Looking at it in this way, I believe He is protecting us all from just this sort of thing from happening.

I accept these truths only because I now know who God truly is, what His personality is like, what His desires are for humankind, and how He is going to go about restoring things to the way He had always meant it to be for mankind (and He is NOT the malevolent God I was taught about when I was young that eventually led to my turning my back on Him, and religion in general for so many years).

One of the greatest comforts for me in my learning about God is that He never changes. Ever! Time goes on; people move forward in life; in understanding things in terms of science and technology; in philosophy and psychology; in politics, and even in the mundane rituals we go through each and every day. Everything is always changing. And as man progresses faster and faster in these areas, the changes are such that hardly anyone has the capacity to keep up. But the one and only thing I can count on NOT to change is who God is and what He is all about.

For me, this absolute God is exactly what I have been searching for my entire life. I find stability in Him. Known as “The Rock” in Biblical text, He is “unchanging, He is a secure refuge…all powerful, “faithful, with whom there is no injustice; righteous and upright…”

There is no imperfection in Him. Is this intimidating? Of course it is, for I know I could never attain this for myself or even for him – at least not now. But He knows that, shows me mercy and always accepts me back when I am ready, once again, to accept Him. One would definitely be hard pressed to find this kind of dedication (and completely without judgement) in human form. I would say, impossible, really!

So, where does this leave things? Well, obviously for the one who is looking for real proof, nowhere closer to where they were before, I am sure. But for me? Even closer to Him now, thanks to the question being posted in the first place!

How can I rectify this and provide some sort of answer that may satisfy this person? The only answer that I keep “hearing over and over” is this – Learn. Study. Pray. Discuss with Him your concerns, your anger toward him, your pain – everything and anything. And above all, LISTEN, because if you truly want to see, He will show you. If you are sceptical, hey, that’s okay too. He understands. Again, what to do? Learn about who you are trying to believe in, and LISTEN. And to your friend who is losing his faith? He needs to do the same. Learn again, because in this world, it is so easy to forget what one does not physically see in front of them all the time. If he had faith once before, he can attain it again. And I believe he probably knows exactly what he needs to do. He may just need a little reminding of that and a little encouragement from you - Rhapsody.

I apologize for posting this separately from yours, but in keeping what you wanted on your post, I could not put it there. I hope you understand.

In all sincerity,

Altered State

[Rhapsody]

Warm HUGS..... <font color="purple"> ((( hugs ))) </font>

Thank YOU very much for sharing with me that of your heart and of your life - I am truly amazed at how open and honest one can be with another when they actually listen (with the heart - and not the mind) to the poster and with that they neither judge nor condemn....
YOU my Friend have done just that - you accepted me and my question as a form of needing to know more and not that of me being weak, back slid, white washed or separated from my Higher Power.... that which I do believe in with all my heart, but that which also needed a little tweaking from with in me, as to survive.

With the witting of my first post my intentions were NEVER to DEBATE nor to CONDEMN the exists of God / Higher Power... but to seek the knowledge that others held with in the spiritual soul.
.... I was not seeking to see proof for or against a Higher Power, but I was hoping to receive back into my ears that of STORIES that no one could deny when the words were spoken.

Once again Thank You very Much.... for listening with out wrong assumptions, for caring with out judging and most of for acceptance of my need to learn / know more of this "Loving Spiritual Being" that I feel deep within side of me, my heart, my SOUL!!


LoVe,
Rhapsody -

[radio_flyer]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
The only answer that I keep “hearing over and over” is this – Learn. Study. Pray. Discuss with Him your concerns, your anger toward him, your pain – everything and anything. And above all, LISTEN, because if you truly want to see, He will show you. If you are sceptical, hey, that’s okay too. He understands. Again, what to do? Learn about who you are trying to believe in, and LISTEN. And to your friend who is losing his faith? He needs to do the same. Learn again, because in this world, it is so easy to forget what one does not physically see in front of them all the time. If he had faith once before, he can attain it again. And I believe he probably knows exactly what he needs to do. He may just need a little reminding of that and a little encouragement from you

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Can't add anything more.. You pretty much said it all..

I can add lyrics to a song by the Isaacs.. Too bad I can't find a link ,if one was intererested, one could hear it ..

Artist: Isaacs
Song: Stand Still

The Father has a plan. Though it's hard to see it now
You feel you're walking all alone. But He is there no doubt
When the storm around you rages, And you're tossed to and fro
When you're faced with life's decisions, Not sure which way to go

Stand still and let God move, Standing still is hard to do
When you feel you have reached the end, He'll make a way for you
Stand still and let God move
When the enemy surrounds you, And the walls are closing in
When the tide is swiftly rising, And you wonder where He's been

Friend, there never was a moment, That His arms weren't reaching out
You can rest assured and be secure, God is moving right now
Stand still and let God move, Standing still is hard to do
When you feel you have reached the end, He'll make a way for you
Stand still and let God move

When you feel you have reached the end, He'll make a way for you
Stand still and let God move
The answer will come, But only in His time
Stand still and let God move, Stand still and let God move

[SeptemberMorn]

BRAVA!! BRAVA!!

I have taken you and your words into my heart this day!

[moodyblu]

Amen! Very well said.
The simple truth is we cannot prove the existence of God to someone else. Each and every soul out there must "experience"...and I use that term ever so lightly...God themselves,in their own lives.
Often the "childlike" simplicity of suddenly "knowing God" in our lives eludes us. Perhaps we were searching too hard....or...like you stated...really not listening.
Thank you...
m.b.

[Rhapsody]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
moodyblu said:
The simple truth is we cannot prove the existence of God to someone else. Each and every soul out there must "experience"...and I use that term ever so lightly...God themselves,in their own lives.
m.b.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

EXACTLY!!! - that was what I was hoping to hear when I made my first thread (locked now).
I was looking to hear every ones PERSONAL STORY behind when they FIRST EXPERIENCED GOD for themselves.... for all believers have a story to share.

Thanks.... for placing what I was searching for in Laymens Term, that which I failed to express well enough for others to under stand, hence wrong assumptions of what I was going after - My Goal.

LoVe,
Rhapsody -

[FaithisAlive]

I first experienced God when I was 7 years old and I was laying in my bed crying.. begging that I be allowed to die.. crying out asking the darkness why nobody loved me and why did I have to hurt so much...why was I even born...

He spoke to me... He said" You are loved my child.. I am here now and always"...

I knew it was God.. in my heart.. the deepest of my soul.. I knew it... and although I didn't always do what God wanted me to do in my life.. I have always had Him in my heart...

Faith

[nothemama8]

I hope no one minds us coming here to this forum, I'm Laura and I'm 12 we stay in the DDforum mostly, and we feel that If God wasn't real we wouldn't be here

[SeptemberMorn]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Laura}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

We love you are you are always welcome, especially here!

[(JD)]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
ask the Higher Power (for me, God) to prove Himself to you

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> This is my own quote from the other thread. I cannot give you the spiritual discernment you (anyone) needs.. but the Higher Power can, and WILL reveal if you ask sincerely. That's part of my faith, anyway.

[nothemama8]

why should he have to prove himself to us, don't we have to prove to him we are worthy
IMO as long as he beleives in us we are okay, if he loses faith in us we have lost it all, we need faith

[SeptemberMorn]

Angie, He invites us to try Him.

Are you familiar with this old hymn??

1. 'Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus,
and to take him at his word;
just to rest upon his promise,
and to know, "Thus saith the Lord."
Refrain:
Jesus, Jesus, how I trust him!
How I've proved him o'er and o'er!
Jesus, Jesus, precious Jesus!
O for grace to trust him more!

[alphamicky]

A gizmo can't define it's own purpose since its purpose is defined by the gizmo's inventor. In the same way, if you accept that you were created by some sort of higher power, then the purpose you were created for was also defined by that higher power, and isn't something you can create or even change.

In a way, it reminds me a bit of the Presbyterian philosophy of pre-destination, that God created the universe and being omniscient, he knows everything that has happened and that will happen to the end of time. Not being a Pres myself, I'm not perfectly sure I described that correctly, but I think I got the jist of it.

I've had to think about this a lot, because I have always been of the philosophy that ultimate responsibility is always your own, thus, you ultimate choices and actions are yours alone. This challenges some basic beliefs that I have and it's a little uncomfortable.

However, the also distinguishes between what your 'purpose' in life is and what your goals in life are. Goals are things that you set for yourself, standards you hold yourself to, etc. Purpose is the plan made by God for your life, how it will affect the world around you, and how it will lead you to eternity.

Does anyone 'really' ever just live their life about themselves? We are social animals, even at our most primitive. While there are such a thing as hermits, as a rule anywhere you see people you see them living as part of a society, thus, they live as part of something that is bigger than the individual.

On one hand, I understand exactly where you are coming from because I feel the same way, but on the other hand, I also recognize that there are forces in the world that sometimes make me do things I'd rather not do because my life is chained to the society that I am a product of. My life is also chained to relationships with other people, and I would do many things that would not be strickly in my own self interest for the sake of these other people (for example, I do a lot of stuff that I think is silly for the sake of my wife, like putting furniture in my closet...or hanging new curtains when as far as I could tell there wasn't anything wrong with the old ones (except they apparently didn't match the new sheets and covers for the bed, which begs the question why did she buy new sheets and covers that didn't match the current curtains...).

From that standpoint, it would be a very rare individual that can truly claim that all aspects of their life are completely at their own whim, because duties, responsibilities, and relationships are almost as powerful a force in shaping your purpose for waking up and going through the motions of your day as your own will is. So, it's not really a 'slam dunk' that you can say your life is all about you, because your life, whether you like it or not, affects others around you who have formed relationships with you, or who had relationships with you thrust upon them by the simple act of being born to the same family.

In a way it's a bitter pill to swallow, because if you are like me you take full responsibility for every single thing that you do or say (for better or worse), and when you take the full responsibility, you like to think that gives you the right to say you have full control. The reality of life however, seems to suggest that perhaps that isn't quite true.

It's something to think about. It's something I'm having to do a lot of thinking about.

P1) Every event has a cause
P2) Something cannot cause itself
P3) A cause must preceed its effect
P4) There must have been a first event in the natural world
_____________________________________________________________
C1) The cause of the first event in the natural world is supernatural in the sense that it is prior to (before) the natural world
_____________________________________________________________
C2) That supernatural cause is god

(One way of cashing out one of Aquinas' 'five ways' to prove the existence of god)

This argument is regarded as a-posteriori.
'A-posteriori' means after experience.
The contrast is 'a-priori' which means before, or prior to experience.
An argument is a-posteriori if one or more of its premises relies on observations. It is thought that the premises rely on our experiencing causation and the like and so Aquinas offers 5 ways to prove the existence of god based on our experience of the natural world. Hume thought that knowledge of causation was a-priori rather than a-posteriori though so I guess he would think the argument from causation is really an a-priori argument...

[Perna]

I tend to get off track anytime I start "intellectualizing" and using my good head too much. My T taught me to "check your heart" and whenever I do that, good things happen. So, when I get frustrated, I try to remember to check my heart for the next step. I think like people's feelings about or belief/knowledge of God, some think checking one's heart is actually checking one's gut but I don't think that way; I have gut reactions too and they don't take the time and effort that checking my heart does. I know Matthew 15:19 says, "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (KJV) but I don't think that's ALL that comes out of the heart. Heck, if Lucifer fell from God's Heaven, then I can be "whole" too and have both bad and good things come out of my heart. I think we're meant to be whole like God is and our "heart" reflects that. For me, there's too much makes-sense reflection of God to not believe.

[allthegirls6]

This Sanctuary is a place for people of all spiritual beliefs and faiths to offer support and compassion to each other in the form of prayers, meditation, and expressions of spirituality. This forum is for support, not religious debate.

[nothemama8]

I offer support and share my faith with all
thank you allthegirls for the reality check
Love
Angie

[Rhapsody]

I personally have enjoyed reading the many shared experiences in this thread (and) I personally do not believe that this thread or any of the other threads posted in the spiritual section was written to debate or to disprove any thing or any one..... IMO, they were written as to share and to learn about a Higher Power - of all beliefs and religions.

+ + + + +


LoVe,
Rhapsody - ((( hugs )))

[SeptemberMorn]

Love it!! I'll have to look and see if I can find it in music.

"Be still and know that I am God." Gives me shivers because on the rare occasion, I've done that and I KNEW He was there! In the true meaning of the word... AWESOME!!!

[alphamicky]

I personally didn't mean to create a debate. I was just hoping to share what I was feeling. If I offended anyone, then I am truly sorry. I was thinking (because of the title of this thread) that this is the place to talk about these things. If I am wrong about that, then I am sorry again.

[Rhapsody]

Please do not worry...................... You are fine with your post.

...................... ((( hugs )))

LoVe,
Rhapsody -

[alphamicky]

Well I just wanted to leave another thought. Again, I want to point out that I am not trying to create a debate, I just want to voice my opinion.

You were planned by God for his pleasure, and he has hardwired enjoyment of life into you. You were not created to endure life, but to enjoy it, and your worship of God should not be about you, but about the glory of God's plan for your life.

A lot of people think of worship as a type of music, or a church service, or prayer. However, these things are just parts of worship. The way you live your life has the power to bring pleasure or sadness to God (which makes you unique of all God's creation). When you live your life in a way that brings pleasure to God, you worship him.

Anthorpologists have noted that the concept of worship is universal among human beings. Human beings have an inbuilt need to connect with 'something bigger than themself'. Practically every major religion or spiritual practice is built upon this, but also many non-religious and non-spiritual practices are built upon it as well. In one way or another, you will worship something, whether that something is sports, money, yourself, or God, there will always be something that you live your life towards. As a Christian, your worship isn't a part of your life, it IS your life. Everything you do should be as if you are doing it for God and Jesus. When you dedicate everything you do in life to God, and always do it as if you are doing that task for God alone, then you are worshiping God in the most sincere way.

Point to Ponder: I was planned for God's pleasure

Verse to Remember: "The Lord takes pleasure in his people" (Psalm 140:4a TEV)

Question to Consider: What common task should I start doing as if I were doing it directly for Jesus?

Personal Comments: I liked this because.... For one thing, it fits my own view of worship. One of the biggest problems I feel that Christianity faces today is getting people to feel that God IS their life, not just PART of their life. I think that Chirstianity gets a bad rep today because people use it to feel good about themselfs, they go to Church on Sunday, and on Monday they turn a blind eye towards the people starving in their community (or around the world for that matter). Faith isn't something you have, it isn't a creed that you live your life by, it isn't a way to seperate yourself from 'sinners', faith IS your life or it ISN'T FAITH. I think a life lived in faith is the ultimate form of worship, and does more to bring pleasure to God than all of the money and acts of charity that someone who only wants to feel like a 'good' person may do in a lifetime. There certainly isn't anything wrong with donating money and time to charity, but it's not an act of worship if you don't do it because of your love for God and your fellow man. If you do it just so others will think well of you, then you are doing it for yourself.

This is just my opinion.

[SeptemberMorn]

Just want you to know that I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts. We're on the same page!

[AlteredState01]

I was certainly not offended in any way. I thought your post was wonderful! It only adds a deeper dimension to this discussion, and placed perfectly because it adds so much to my original post!

Your description of faith (and its works), and how it is to be approached is often overlooked and even ignored, as you suggested. Indeed, one's faith/religion ought to be one's life and/or lifestyle. It should never be divorced from anything one does, even in the most insignificant of things done.

I think it is specifically this concept that many have difficulty accepting, thus the tug-of-war that often goes on within those who have sensitive consciences as respects faith and religion.

I thought your post was excellent. Please keep writing and sharing.

PS - a debate can only be started if one is compelled to respond to a challenge of one's idea. I can't see this as being debatable (for a Christian) - it is biblical fact.

Altered State

[nothemama8]

having a real hard morning, needing abit of extra support with some hugs, I woke up this morning realizing that my first true experience with God was back in 1970, I had been real sick the dr said I was near death, the very hour that my fever broke and I started getting better my Mama passed away, I beleive it was God taking her home to him and giving me her spirit to go on, am I making any since with this, Im sad but happy at the same time
Angie