[kimmydawn]

Sometimes when I discuss my spirituality or beliefs it's to share usually, not to enter into an ordinary discussion. I recognize that's not always known by the reader.

When I make a regular post, I invite disagreement and even a good debate at times. I invite someone to "tell me like it is" from their experience, learning and perception. That's way cool!

However, most times when I post about spiritual beliefs and feelings, it's to share and to invite others in to say, "I understand," as they possibly share with me how and why they understand. It's the one time I don't want another to tell me that they think I'm wrong, that what makes me feel good and gets me through is inappropriate or inaccurate. It's mine! Just because it's mine, though, doesn't mean I don't want to share the beauty, doubts, etc.

In reading, I think that alot of others feel this same way. They want to simply share at times. They want a "limited discussion" at times that isn't flat-out asking questions, asking another to analyze or pick apart their feelings by demanding explanation, or an invitation for advice or criticism.

Maybe we could approach the sharing threads with a simple hug, a "Thank you for sharing", or nothing if we don't understand? We don't have to respond to every thread...

I just don't think it's up to us to question another's personal and individual beliefs. I'm pretty sure most of us have questioned ourselves to the hilt and back! Sometimes we come up empty when asking even ourselves those questions because spirituality is deeper than reason and comprehension. Some things "just are".

At times there's such a feeling of push/pull on this subject. Can those times end with each dropping their end of the rope and either meet in the middle or walk away from it, allow those needing the rope to use it freely?

Sometimes we may not realize that initial push/pull tug on the rope, but when we do it can be our individual choice to drop the line so that those that need to, or even self, can make use of the rope?

If you don't intend your response to cause tension in the rope, the best thing to do is drop your hold? There would be no resistance if there wasn't a hold at both ends? There is really no right or wrong here...

Maybe to help clarify what our intent is when making a post, we could add to the title "sharing" or "open discussion" to help direct posters in knowing what we're looking for? If a poster states they're just sharing, share back in agreement? If a poster says they're wanting open discussion, we could discuss the issue without heated argument, flames, and keeping in mind the original topic while keeping check of personal feelings reflected?

Just some thoughts...

KD

[SeptemberMorn]

That's exactly what I try to do, is share the joy and proof of my spirituality and why I believe what I believe. I share my experiences that hopefully support what I gather from a given post such as "does God exist" or "does God love us". Invariably, though, someone that doesn't believe how the majority of the posters do, will throw a monkey wrench in the whole works and start an argument. Why does this have to be? If they don't believe in what was stated or asked, why can't they just leave it alone?? Why do they even read something they already know they aren't going to agree with? Just stay out of it!

I've been keenly aware that only the Chritian threads get this. No one else argues any other kind of spirituality/faith/beliefs. I have my answer for this, but I would just start another argument if I stated it here.

[kimmydawn]

Well, I can understand that frustration, September. I also know that we can't control others or assume about their actions and thoughts (not saying you are...just saying).

Remember the analogy of the rope? There's no resistance if it's not being pulled from both ends. If you find a resistance has creeped up on it, drop the rope and the tension gone. Of course, that doesn't mean that you can't make use of the parts of the rope where there's no tension.

In other words, we can only control our own experiences and a good way to do that is respond to what is positive for us, not feeding a debate where it's not an agreed upon action in a discussion, remembering that response in furthering our position is a continuation of an argument where one exists.

A good response might be, "Thank you for your thoughts," and that's that (releasing our tension on the rope), ya know?

Love,

Kim

[KathyM]

KD

Sounds reasonable to me, and I'll go along with it.

However, with any posts/threads I make, I'd appreciate "The Full Monty." I have very strong opinions of my own, but I also value and respect the opinions of others - even if they choose to throw vulgarity at me. I'm just that way. I like it when people point out where I'm wrong in my thinking. I appreciate honest feelings and I like it when someone tells me exactly where they're coming from. Sometimes their points are valid, sometimes not - but they're always true.

If I happen to step on any toes, please let me know. I have no intention to offend anyone here.

[kimmydawn]

I'm the same way with general posting, Kathy. Also, I'm pretty good at letting go what I feel I can't use. I've learned so much from taking in what I can though...even that which I disagree with in the moment. So many times it's proven valuable down the road.

I'm talking more about that occasional time when I'm not feeling "full steam" and simply want to share, or the times when others need the same and may be upset because it goes in a different direction...

I think it can help us when we're discussing in those times that it feels that way.

KD

thank you, so much, KD. valuable insight and understanding of why some of us only want to state "our" take on what's in our heart. a lot of what goes on here is what caused me to leave organized religion and form my own inner spirituality. i can't stand the flaming and you are wrong bits.

and i've started feeling as if i can't discuss my beliefs due to the intense disagreements and pronouncements of right versus wrong.

i think support means unconditional acceptance of one another and, as you said, leave the rope alone if you don't have supportive feedback. there are threads here that i don't read or wouldn't dream of responding to. hope others will do the same.

your explanation of letting us having our beliefs and feelings is much needed and i really, really appreciate it. i'm tired of getting aknot in my stomach over my beliefs and the defense of them......also tired of trying to ward off the negativity.......

thank you, again!!!!!!! xoxoxo pat

[selfy]

v good post kimmy tis not nice to have to defend yourself every time yor religion is questioned, which seems to happen alot
tc all
self

(((((((((KD)))))))))))) this is such a great post...I write here at times when I am sinking fast, and want to step out and trust...I am afraid at times because my wording may upset someone...but it is how I feel...a rope holding onto life to sustain me...actually, most times I am inhibited and afraid to explain or express my spirituality...because I do not want to hurt of offend anyone...I know that so many have been hurt and I do not want to do that..and I hope that I don't...IDK just my feelings...

[kimmydawn]

Thanks, guys.

What an ultimate act of compassion to recognize our own strong feelings and put another's (maybe even someone you don't even know that is the deep pits but reading) above our own if it doesn't hurt us to do so...

KD

[kimmydawn]

I've really learned so much through my daughter's illness, my concerns for her health and for the life of my grandson.

The arguments, proving points, demanding to be heard, right, wrong, standing my ground and position etc., are what really? Those things would matter if she became more ill? Those things would matter if...?

In my stand on one side, with her so staunchly on the other side, did she come around to my understanding? Did she even absorb anything or did I completely turn her off to hearing what I knew in my adult mother's heart to be "right"?

No, those things don't matter and if the act of my "standing down" does nothing more than hurt my pride, doesn't get me the last word or something, what really have I lost? What more have I lost if I ended all chances of helping her to see what's best for her in her illness?

Sometimes the strongest act is the act of graciousness.

KD

<font color="#000088">You're right Kimmydawn,and Graciousness is an act of Love. I believe that God is Love,and that Love is the most powerful thing in all of existence,and it can be shown in many forms,even just with a smile to someone who's having a bad day. You never know what that smile could do for that person. Helping an old stranger load thier groceries into thier car, that is an act of God,it's pure unselfishness, which is another way of showing Love.
When you do any act of Love,kindness,helping someone out,if you really think about it,after you did it,you always get a good feeling inside of you,that's God! That's what I believe!
Thanks for letting me share it with you KD! </font>

[kimmydawn]

No. Thank YOU for sharing, Justice.

KD

[(JD)]

...and when I share here that's it's main purpose: to share. It's for other Christians. I, too, dislike having to read about pagan beliefs etc, but since they are not "for me" I don't go into the threads and preach. I find it rather upsetting though to find a thread marked Christian only to find out it's a bashing thread, or somehow was changed in the midst by someone and I then am slung to the ground for discussing Christianity. If those who are not Christian consider discussing Christianity as "flaming" well, then it works both ways. For me, I know I don't do it to cause upset to another, but to encourage the badgered Christian. I can't say why non-Christians post, but it feels like flaming to me, too.

I'm am uncertain about the rope analogy with regards to what I'm allowed to post. It makes no sense to have to "drop" a theme thread just because someone has pulled on the rope. That is close to denying me my right to free speech, in favor of dissenters. (Though I have given them the "win" at times when it just wasn't "fair.")

Let me reiterate: I post to share. Take it or leave. Hmmm maybe that could be a siggy too?

Edit PS I meant take it or leave it. I need a rest.

[tranquility]

Hi Kimmy,

I get what you're saying. I sent an email to the mods about a week ago and suggested that they split this forum into two different ones. Keep a spirituality forum and create a christianity forum - that should eliminate the tensions that are here (this is not disrespecting anyone's belief). This would allow people to post where they feel the most appropriate.

At that point one would expect that if you post to spirituality you will not have responses that quote the bible, and likewise if you post to christianity you cannot then complain if christianity opinions/quotes are given back to you.

I heard from one mod that this is a discussion between mods with ultimate decision by John, but no one has gotten back to me on this subject.

Tranquility

[SeptemberMorn]

That's a nice thought, but there's always going to be some that will intentionally cross over the lines and make a point of stating their opinions just like they do now, and even making statements that have absolutely nothing to do with the sujbect being discussed. I'm sure this would happen even in a forum was titled "Christianity ONLY."

[kimmydawn]

Tranquility,

Yes, it is being discussed and someone will get back with you...in PM.

My first thinking on this is that spirituality is universal. This forum is for spirituality first and religion only as it applies to that. Making subforums, etc., would be making it more about religion?

I do appreciate the suggestion.

Thanks,

KD

[kimmydawn]

sky said:

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I'm am uncertain about the rope analogy with regards to what I'm allowed to post. It makes no sense to have to "drop" a theme thread just because someone has pulled on the rope. That is close to denying me my right to free speech, in favor of dissenters. (Though I have given them the "win" at times when it just wasn't "fair.")

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

The rope analogy didn't refer to dropping the theme, but more to dropping debate/argument with a poster or set of posters and use the part of the rope (thread) that can be used.

There's really no win or lose. One could go on proving a point or standing ground, but really what's gained but sometimes more debate/argument? More importantly, what might be lost?

KD

[SeptemberMorn]

Sky, it means IGNORE those that ask questions only for the sake of argument or come off with some remark that has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of the thread.

[(JD)]

Sounds good to me

[SeptemberMorn]

I think KD was talking about me and my big mouth that I can't keep shut when absurdities like that happen.

KD, i am very much for separation now. when the forum started, it said "spirituality".....but it isn't working out that way. and i understand what you've said about "spirituality being universal"..(i think that's what you said ) to me it is.

splitting it up would mean that someone who doesn't want to read about my beliefs wouldn't have to. and they shouldn't, if it gets their knickers in a knot. i only read a few forums here and it works for me.

it goes back to the rope.........take it or leave it......but please don't just type in something so we can argue about it. there are those of us who believe that anyone can believe anything. just don't tell me that there is only ONE way..........there are a bunch of ways. and one of the main ways is to be loving, supportive, non-judgmental, open-minded, fair, tolerant and kind. doing that means that sometimes we leave the keyboard alone.

thanks for your interest in providing a place for all of us......xoxoxo pat p.s. it is absurd to think that we're all the same. we aren't and we don't have to be.......

[KathyM]

I think it's pretty sad that Christians and spiritual people can't talk of God's blessings in the same room. I hope the forum isn't split up. I don't like to see people closing doors and taking sides in the name of God. Historically, it only causes pain, death and war.

If we who claim to love God can't find a way to get along here, what hope is there out there in the real world?

I'm neither Christian nor Pagan - to which forum would you suggest I belong if it's separated?

[(JD)]

I'm not sure of what all is happening here, expecially on this thread that began as a person's definition of their spirituality.

For me, spirituality can include things not usually seen as God-related. That I, inside, relate all things to God shouldn't affect another. I can follow another's spirituality format without having to insert the word "God" into it, as I have clearly displayed already.

For some, spirituality does not mean God. That's fine too.

I don't see any need to split this forum up because any problems that I see are caused by the posts that are made, not by the forum title. It does become tough to remember at times that all posts are to be supportive in nature. That, plus the use of "I" statements doesn't mean/include imo making statements about how I think someone else is wrong or how I think God doesn't exist etc. "I" statements I thought were more of the lines of explaining personal experiences in giving support.

The administrators are doing a good job here I think, in general. It's a new forum and probably needs to seek it's own level. Any fear of having it split up in my POV would mean one part for support and another for discussion/debate. I would vote against that, if it were asked of me. I'll let the admin decide and go with whatever.

Historically for me, God has continued to show love, mercy, and grace. Guess it's just what viewpoint one has.

Support in this forum might, should, and does often take a bit of a turn from the other forums. Spirituality is a deeper personal "thing"...but is it really, than say, depression or schizophrenia? Should this forum be any different than the guidelines of pure support? I mean, we don't go into a "disorder" forum and discuss whether we believe it exists or not. When someone puts down the existance of God, that would be like me putting down someone's belief that spirituality exists. Maybe if we can look at it that way, it won't be so difficult to allow me my faith, and me to allow you yours.

I, for one, can work harder at not posting any Scripture that puts down satan, and various other sins. I can try to keep Scripture to what I really do try to do and that is to uplift and encourage struggling Christians. Sometimes the problem has to be shown first, before understanding follows. I guess if someone who would worship satan (and I'm just using this as a sharp contrast example) needed to condemn God to encourage the followers, that might happen.

I personally try not to put other PEOPLE down, even when their beliefs are different than mine. I hope others have seen that on the most part. I don't hate people. I might surely hate what they DO though. (I doubt I'm alone in that.) But still, the forum wasn't put here for showing hatred or contrariness towards others or other's faith.

Once again PC is forefront in the effort to help us all learn how to give and receive support.

i not pagan.........the only spirituality belief isn't pagan!!!!!!!

and don't think it doesn't sadden me, the way things have gone. i'm trying to keep the peace, not start something else.

[bebop]

personally I wouldn't mind seeing it split. one for christian, pagan, wiccan and such. I think then if anyone had interest to find out what the others believe we could go there to ask questions. all in one tends to get into debates and I for one don't think that is what spirituality is all about. we ask, we get answers and let it go. real simple in my opinion.