[KathyM]

Maven's "Free Thinkers" thread was an interesting discussion. It's too bad others were offended, and it's a real shame the thread was locked. I was hoping to see where she was going with it, and was also hoping to contribute my own thoughts to her thread.

When it comes to religion and spiritual matters, I don't carry a label or belong to any groups. I'm not comfortable posting in Christian threads, and I'm equally uncomfortable posting in "Native American Spirituality" threads (I'm not native, and I support natives who fight exploitation of their culture).

Maven's thread was the closest I've found to my own beliefs (free), but it was promptly locked. Does this mean people like Maven and I have no place here? Does it mean we can only talk in private - because our words are too offensive to the rest of the people here who claim to be strong in their faith?

Maven

My life sucks too. My childhood was spent dealing with my mother's illness, her alcoholism, and her suicide attempts. My first husband left me to raise a child on my own. Soon after my best friend died at the age of 26. Months later, my father was diagnosed with lung cancer (Dad and my best friend were the ONLY people in this world I trusted).

I became caregiver to both mom and dad, in addition to being a single parent and full-time worker. It tore me apart when dad died, but then mom added to the stress by dying 8 days after dad in 1991. It was overwhelming to mourn for two parents at the same time.

I met a great man and married again. My life was FINALLY coming together and I could focus on MY life and what I wanted to BE when I grew up. I decided to go back to school and pursue a degree in social work. The first step was to get some new glasses, but that exam stopped me in my tracks - stopped my life altogether. I was diagnosed with the same illness my mother had (familial amyloidosis), and I was told I only had a few years left of eyesight and mobility. Why bother going to school? That was over 10 years ago. Obviously, I can still see - but I've been sitting in this chair all this time. I'm 49, and my life is basically over. I'm permanently/totally disabled now and just waiting at the bus stop.

A good life is never guaranteed - in this life or the next. It's what we do with the life we have that matters. It's not about what we get out of life or take out of life - it's what we give back to this world and others that makes life good or bad.

How would you feel about life if you were told this is it - no afterlife, no do overs? How would you feel if you were told this IS heaven (life on earth)? Would you appreciate the beauty of sunrises or sunsets more? Would you cherish warm, sandy beaches, autumn leaves, or snow-capped mountains? What about the sound of an infant's belly laugh or your favorite song? Do you think you'd miss any of these things after you're gone?

Nothing you will say can offend me, so I'm asking ahead of time to keep this thread open. If others are offended by our conversation, they can focus and post on other threads available to them. If Maven and I are not welcome in this Sanctuary, please let us know.

[Rapunzel]

Kathy, I am sorry that life has been so unkind to you.

Yes, you and Maven are welcome here, as is everyone who can post according to the guidelines and the spirit of this forum. You can discuss what you believe, and you can expect for your beliefs to be respected. We will ask that you also respect the beliefs of others, and their freedom to choose the way that they think and believe. I don't need to remind you here of the rules, as they have been discussed elsewhere. Your beliefs are not offensive (although I have to admit that I feel sad that you don't have hope for the promise of something better than this life). The thing to remember is to allow everyone their own beliefs. People will feel offended if the point you want to make is that they haven't freely chosen their beliefs if they believe differently than you do. If you keep your discussion centered on what you believe and not about those who believe differently than you, then you will be fine.

I wish you peace.
Rapunzel

[Etheria]

Amen Rapunzel. I think we should all follow the voice within us - whatever we wish to call it - and travel the path that most resonates with us and be respectful of others' right to do the same. I don't think we need to make this forum - - - set up to provide support - - - a microcosm of the middle east.

[KathyM]

Thanks Etheria and Rapunzel

Rapunzel

I never said I don't have hope for something better, and I never said my life is bad. It's just been a wild ride.

I've been through a lot and never seemed to get what I wanted in life. But when I look back, I have no regrets. I got what I needed to learn in order to survive today. I'm still here, so it's not over just yet. I'll have more lessons to learn, more hills and valleys to go through before I'm done. I suspect I won't survive, lol.

I do have faith, however, and I call it faith in God - something greater than me who is responsible for this whole mess we call life on earth. It doesn't seem possible that we have no purpose in life, or that it's just over when we die. I follow basic principles that are similar in all faiths, and I pray for guidance along the way. I figure it doesn't hurt to follow my heart instead of a book or what others have to say about my path in life. The only people it seems to hurt are those set on changing my beliefs and converting me to their brand of religion. They try very hard to silence me.

I do believe in an afterlife only because my mother had some sort of connection that could not be explained in a book, and she never learned it from another person. I do still feel a connection with her, along with other important people in my life.

When I die, if I find out I'm wrong - guess I'll just have to duke it out with God and say....

"You've known all along I'm bull-headed and stubborn - heck, I was born a Taurus, lol. You had plenty of time and opportunity to let me know ahead of time that I was wrong. I tried my hardest and did my best. It's YOUR fault!" Then I'll try to run and duck for cover.

[Rapunzel]

LOL at your conversation when you duke it out with God.

[Maven]

First, thank you to those of you who understand where I'm coming from.

I did not insult anyone. I stated my beliefs, and in saying you don't choose your beliefs, I believe that to be true, also. You can't believe a little blue man is standing next to you by choice. Something has to convince you. You can tell yourself he's there, but if, in your heart of hearts, you don't believe he's not there, you can't make yourself believe. I did not mean that you don't research what feels right to you; I meant that you can't choose to believe something that doesn't make sense to you. I also didn't mean you don't choose your religion; I said you don't choose your beliefs.

Second, I did not post that thread for debate or for people to share their faith. I wanted to hear from freethinkers, atheists, agnostics, etc. I'm very offended that the thread was locked. I don't think I'll be hanging around here much longer. I don't go into the religious threads and tell people there's no God (which I don't definitely believe), although on a handful of occasions, I've stated what I believe. I have no told anyone they're wrong in this forum on their beliefs.

When people bring up God, I rarely say anything, even though I don't like it pushed on me. But if I do say that's not my belief, it's often countered, and I feel disrespected by that. Many religious people don't understand how disrespectful it is to push their beliefs on non-believers and non-religious persons, because they feel they're right, and it's in your best interest to believe. Many atheists think it's in your best interest to NOT believe, but you'd get upset and feel disrespected if they pushed that on you.

[KathyM]

Thanks Maven. I think it's the mix of all of us that can make life work at it's best capacity. Saw a quote once about various notes coming together to make a perfect chord. Hope you don't leave here - unless you want to.

If you had the chance for a do over (another life), what would it look like - how would you describe a good life? If this question is too personal, I won't be offended if you don't answer.

[Rapunzel]

I also would like for this thread to be able to stay open. If it is used to discuss a locked thread, or administrative actions and issues, that won't work.

As far as pushing beliefs or non-beliefs, I think that one thing goes both ways. People tend to be passionate about their beliefs (either way), and to want to share them. That passion can be taken as forcing beliefs on people who believe differently. We need to be very careful here about stating our own beliefs without making statements about what someone else doesn't believe, or that someone else's beliefs are wrong in some way.

[Rhapsody]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Maven said:
I did not post that thread for debate or for people to share their faith. I wanted to hear from freethinkers, atheists, agnostics, etc. I'm very offended that the thread was locked.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Dear Maven,

I am sorry that you feel the need to leave PC and all the wonderful people here..... and while I can support your right to have the thread you started, I can't help but think that it might of done better and possibly stayed opened if it was placed in Social or General (and) not in the Spiritual Support Thread based on this particulars threads definition.......

Definition:
This Sanctuary is a place for people of all spiritual beliefs and faiths to offer support and compassion to each other in the form of prayers, meditation, and expressions of spirituality.

As you and I can see from the definition above the thread that was locked lacked the main criteria for the spiritual support forums:
... for people of all spiritual beliefs and faiths to offer support

I write this post not to put any one or their personal belief system down, but to give a rational / unbiased reason as to why your thread was locked.

Take - Care.

[Rhapsody]

On the other side of this thread........ Freedom to Think

I am Christian (meaning I believe in a higher power) and I have the "Freedom to Think" for my Self.

I believe we are spiritual creatures here on earth having a human experience and we are to find our way back to our spiritual place of belonging, and everyone has their own path to follow and ever ones path is different, not the same.

I guess you can say that I am a "Freedom Fighter" in that I do not always follow the same path as a hundred others may and yet I am connecting to my spiritual place of belonging - that which I came from.

[Etheria]

Hey Kathy - could I get an invite to the duking it out with God thing? i like your sense of humor and my money in on you surviving. My mom was a Taurus who died for a few moments after giving birth to me - she shared with me what that experience was like - sounded pretty awesome. Blessings, Etheria

[eskielover]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Maven said:

I did not insult anyone. I stated my beliefs, and in saying you don't choose your beliefs, I believe that to be true, also. You can't believe a little blue man is standing next to you by choice. Something has to convince you. You can tell yourself he's there, but if, in your heart of hearts, you don't believe he's not there, you can't make yourself believe. I did not mean that you don't research what feels right to you; I meant that you can't choose to believe something that doesn't make sense to you. I also didn't mean you don't choose your religion; I said you don't choose your beliefs.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I could accept the post if it were written that "I don't believe that you can believe...." or "I don't believe you can choose....", but to be told that "you can't believe"....or that "you don't choose" is stating a fact that is only believed in your own mind as being so....but is not believed by other people. Therefore by stating that "you can't" because you say so is disrespecting others & pushing your thoughts as being a fact rather than your belief.

That is where I have problems with the posting. I feel disrespected when I am told that I can't believe something by choice when I personally believe that the basis of my Christianity is the freedom of choice (which is my free will) to believe what I choose to believe. I can honestly say that for me, the beliefs in Christianity don't make sense at all & most of what I believe is based on faith that it is true without being able to prove anything....because most of it I can't prove. For me, I believe that I have the choice to have that faith or not & that no one can make that choice for me or force me to make that choice no matter how hard they try

I am just thinking that as long as this post continues with people posting what they believe rather than stating something as a fact, that this post will be able to stay open to freedom of expression.

Debbie

[Maven]

What you can prove and what you believe are two different things. You don't choose to believe, you just do. You don't believe in God unless something has convinced you there is a God.

I didn't say anything about anyone forcing you to believe anything. I just said it isn't a choice. If I say it, it's obviously my opinion. I don't need to say, "I believe..." or "It's my opinion that..." because obviously, if I'm saying it, it's coming from my point of view.

As for where I posted my post, I wasn't sure where to post it. There should be a secular forum if there's going to be a spirituality forum. To expect me to post in General when there's a forum for people of certain beliefs, is discriminatory.

[Etheria]

Maven, this is primarily a mental health site that allows people to provide support to one another. The forum you're posting this stuff in is a "Sanctuary for Spiritual Support." The operative word being "spiritual." Your posts do not lend favorably to that. If you're into debating - why not suggest a "Epistemology vs Metaphysics" forum.

I hope you find peace.

[Maven]

I'm not into debating this. I asked for freethinkers to post, nothing else. When people start talking about spirituality in the thread I started, I'm going to comment on that.

There is no secular forum here. Religious people can have a "sanctuary," but I'm left out of the club. Typical. It's like prayer in school. People say, "Well, those who don't want to pray can leave the room." That's the same as saying, "This is our club, and you're welcome to participate, but you have to leave when you don't like what we're doing."

All I did was ask who are atheists, agnostics, secular humanists, etc.--FREETHINKERS--here. When others asked what a "freethinker" is and gave misconceptions as to what it is, I answered that. If it offends, too bad.

This is why I'm thinking of leaving. I will find a mental health forum for freethinkers.

[heyjoe]

Etheria,Having only been here since August and being new you may not be aware that you can ignore mavens posts if you find them unsettling or you can skip threads with a title that you know will upset you. The key word being ignore.

[Etheria]

You're right Heyjoe - I really should avoid things that are upsetting and vexatious. I came to this site for support and to feel comforted. Wow, I thought "Sanctuary for Spiritual Support" was going to provide just that. I really hope things on this forum calm down so it can actually be - - a sanctuary for spiritual support. Thank you for your guidance. Blessings, Etheria

[SeptemberMorn]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I thought "Sanctuary for Spiritual Support"

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

It IS supposed to be a Sanctuary and it IS supposed to be Spiritual. I guess some people don't understand the meaning of either word.

Don't give up, Etheria. It's not always like this.

[Etheria]

Thank you Septembermorn - I really needed that. I've been feeling really guilty and bummed out about adding to the disquiet. I had mentioned to someone else on this forum that it wasn't a good idea and would serve no useful purpose to continue with "the" discussion and turned around and did it anyway. Shame on me! I really wish everyone well and hope we can all find some peace within ourselves and in this forum. Many blessings, Etheria

[SeptemberMorn]

I'll certainly accept your blessings! Thank you! Bless you also.