[(JD)]

Death is a real equalizer isn't it? It doesn't matter if we have lived on this earth as young or old, rich or poor, famous or unknown, educated or ignorant, powerful or weak, religious or atheistic, athletic or crippled, healthy or sickly, happy or depressed... we all die.

Still we can be surprised when it comes.

It's good to know and believe that once this life is over, there's better afterwords.

<font color="purple"> For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Jeremiah 29:11

I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. John 14:3

</font> re:Heaven, by Anne Graham Lotz

[nothemama8]

truer words were never spoken, my Grandma always said she couldn't wait to get to heaven, and that we must allways remember we're only here on earth as a loan to our earth family

[(JD)]

I thank God, honestly, that I do not fear death. I've seen the look in ppl's eyes when they were dying without Him; it is not easy.

I fully understand Paul's writing about "to die is gain." It was always power behind any depressively strong thoughts of ending what was a miserable (physically and psychologically) life. It is what is behind my ability to continue to live, in spite of all with which I contend.

But I have heard scholars of the Scriptures define heaven, and it's truly magnificent!

But, also, that we will have a purpose in heaven is important. It isn't that life is over and we just mull around with nothing to do... while those who have worked their whole lives might find that hopeful, it's good to know we will have a place, physically and "psychologically."

[altonwoodsdrphil]

great topic sky! I too have the great hope of eternal life in Christ ...I'm sure you're familiar with whats called "the joy of the Lord", or "the fruit of the spirit" which is among other things love joy and peace, there's no barrier to our ability to experience that here on earth (because we're under the blood)...Jesus is'nt limiting how much of him we can experience, we are! in heaven our sin nature will be gone, thats true...but theres something about our lives here on earth, it's a roler coaster ride (as opposed to a merry go round) we seem to enjoy things more if they hit both ends of the spectrum, which is why I've wondered about a "perfect place" I'm sure its so much more than I can begin to imagine but my point is this, I think that my life has been so wonderful, I just want it to go on and on...and even though I've had my share of troubles here I understand that diamonds are formed from lumps of coal that are put under pressure for a long time...a means to an end, so...heaven? well, I hope I die in my sleep and wake up not knowing the difference...

[(JD)]

I've been where you are, not wishing this life to end! Wanting the Lord to wait for His return for His children.

But to realize that while we will not be held back by the physical body and it's ailments, we will still have a life, a purpose, and we will know each other, recognize those family and friends who also trusted in God.

To know that animals will be back in their originally created state: eating off the land and none being prey, "the lion will lay down with the lamb" peace... that's just exciting!

[(JD)]

[b]<font color="purple">And they shall see His face; and His name in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.</font>

[50guy]

It is a very deep subject, no pun intended.

Yes, the grave makes us all equal. No one will be less dead that anyone else.

The only problem I have is not being sure. Will I make it? I don't know. I have hope but, I am just not sure.
Some would say I have unbelief, well then I will be like the disciples that said "we believe Lord, help now our unbelief."

[altonwoodsdrphil]

don't we all work out our salvation with fear and trembling? even though it's entirely a gift of God, our chalenge is in the acceptance of it , our awareness of our desperate need for it , and our sincere seeking of it . given mans nature (ego) this is a very big challenge

[50guy]

Yes, we do. I do accept it but, in honesty I have a hard time living a forgiven life. To me it is very difficult.
I was an ordained minister. I went to school to be a minister and after 15 years I am very disalusioned with the whole thing.

I know we shouldn't look at other people and such but, I have had many of my good believing friends drop out that I begin to question wheather I am progressing or, am I just having unrealistic expectations.

I have had 3 close associates just give up and the valadictorian of my class ended his life a few years ago.

I have sat in so many minister meetings and listened to the
man made ideas of what salvation is that it made me just want to forget it all. The carnal thinking was sickening.

Now, i'm not turning my back on the Lord, I am just having great difficulty trying to stay saved. I spend many days not even thinking about religion and go through many dark periods of great doubt. That is why I plead to God, Help now my unbelief.

[altonwoodsdrphil]

that's truly heavy stuff...It kind of reminds me of the story told about mother teresa recently,how she said in her letters that she went for years without hearing from the Lord. From my personal perspective, I have to feel as though I'm moving ahead in my faith,( I don't think we ever really stand still) I know that I have to draw close to him and when I feel as if my joy has gone awol I look back at the events and circumstances and search out where I let the enemy slip in a lie on me. you mentioned un-realistic expectations, I don't know specifically what you mean but considering your maturity as a believer I would say that you are feeling like what was once such a vital living relationship you had with Christ has changed and you're wondering if this is to be expected or if its "un-realistic" to expect to have the same zeal for the ministry you once did. It's kind of like a marriage is'nt it? we get back out of it what we put into it and many of us just for whatever reason stop. well, I've hijacked sky's thread and I apoligize to her for that, and for my chains...I hope something helped

[nowheretorun]

50guy said :

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
That is why I plead to God, Help now my unbelief.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

i was just doing this the other day myself 50guy ... i believe God listens : )

[(JD)]

50guy, but the difference between the disciples and us, at the time they said that, was that Christ was there, and not the Holy Spirit. That's why Christ said He had to leave, and would send another.

We receive the Holy Spirit once we accept God's gift. He seals us unto the day of redemption.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[eskielover]

I know that all my life, my Mother was telling me how wonderful heaven was & that when it was her time to die, she would be looking forward to it.

I was with her continually the last month of her life when the cancer had taken over her body & I think the mind. At that time, she wasn't even really mentally there or able to comprehend much of what was going on around her. She continued to hold on & hold on. It seemed that her mind just wouldn't let her go. The fear of that unknown seemed to hold her back from letting go. It wasn't until I sat there, holding her hand & telling her that the only way God was going to heal her was for her to die & let him take her to heaven. It was as though she needed reassurance to know that is was ok to die & that God really was there with the place he had prepared for her & my Dad was there waiting for her.

From that experience, is seemed that no matter how much she was looking forward to heaven, that fear of the unknown had a strong hold on her considering her body was more than ready to go.

As for the question of being saved, I know that we have the freewill to choose to believe or not, but I also when reading Ephesians 1:3-6 & 11, it makes me think (?). Those verses say: 4) For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy & blameless in his sight. In love 5) he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure & will -- 6) to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves..........11) In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Thoughts but mostly questions:
- Those that believe were chosen from the beginning of time
- Those struggling with believing, are chosen because they have the knowledge of what they are struggling to believe & that knowledge can only have come to them through God & the holy spirit.
- Those that don't believe, aren't chosen....BUT there is the possibility they may come to believe in which case, they may have actually been chosen, it's just that they haven't come to that point in their lives yet.
- If by freewill, one makes the choice to reject their belief in God, then they weren't chosen in the first place?

These "wondering about's" are all part of my looking forward to heaven....I just started a bible class & these are readings made me stop & think.

Debbie

My parents were Christians before I was born, so I never knew anything different but when I read this, it made me a bit

[KathyM]

My father looked forward to his journey when he was dying, but he was worried about the welfare of those of us he was leaving behind. He needed to know that we'd be okay without him.

Now that I'm in a disabled/terminal position, I can understand how my dad felt. I'm thankful my son is no longer a teenager. Still, he's a young adult and there are still times when he needs me. I can't fully rejoice in my upcoming journey until I know my son will be okay without me in his life.

[50guy]

Yes, it is true they didn't know the whole plan of God.

However, they had a hard time believing what was told to them by the Lord. I know we live by the spirit and we are challenged to live our lives holy unto the Lord.

I am not trying to make excuses, I am being honest when I say that my particular journey is a great and trying struggle.
I'm also not trying to be a martyr and have a woe is me attitude. Living for God is not easy and every time I fall I get up and ask for forgiveness wondering when the next it happens will I die in it? I know it will happen again.
I remember Paul when he asked God to remove his thorn in the flesh, God told him "my grace is sufficient for thee..."
Paul was able to glory in his infirmity. I should be so inclined.

Anyway, this is a long and thought provoking study and I am being honest with you all. It isn't easy and I struggle daily.

Last night I had a dream about an old pastor friend of mine.
He was the only man of God that truly was a non judgemental friend. He knew my struggle with unbelief and remained my friend untill his death at age 75. I cannot tell you how much I miss him. In my dream I was moving to Arizona to be with him, I woke up with tears in my eays and said to my wife, I miss James. She knew why and he has been gone for 10 years. She hugged me and said "I know."

Pray for me.

[seeker1950]

I do not think "heaven" should be a goal in living one's life. I'm not meaning to suggest this of other posts here either, but, really, who, WHO, can really know what the afterlife brings. No on can really be certain, despite what the Bible tells us.
I like "The Apology of Socrates," when he faced his own death sentence, and said:
Let us reflect in another way, and we shall see that there is great reason to hope that death is a good; for one of two things--either death is a state of nothingness and utter unconsciousness, or, as men say, there is a change and migration of the soul from this world to another. Now if you suppose that there is no consciousness, but a sleep like the sleep of him who is undisturbed even by dreams, death will be an unspeakable gain. For if a person were to select the night in which his sleep was undisturbed
even by dreams, and were to compare with this the other days and nights of his life, and then were to tell us how many days and nights he had passed in the course of his life better and more pleasantly than this one, I think that any man, I will not say a private man, but even the great king will not find many such days or nights, when compared with the others. Now if death be of such a nature, I say that to die is gain; for eternity is then only a single night.
But if death is the journey to another place, and
there, as men say, all the dead abide, what good, O my friends and judges,can be greater than this? If indeed when the pilgrim arrives in the world below, he is delivered from the professors of justice in this world, and
finds the true judges who are said to give judgment there....

I know Socrates was speaking form an unChristian viewpoint, but it has balance, and speaks the truth to me.
Patty

[50guy]

Well, that might work for some but, for me I would rather live my life as if there is a hereafter then to live it as if there isn't and then die and find out I was wrong.

I talking about struggling with doubt and periods of unbelief.
Not about being agnostic.

[(JD)]

I fully understand not being able to realize this truth. I was that way myself until I accepted God's Gift of Love. Then, it is the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer that gives this knowledge.

For those who do not share in the reality of heaven, I can only say this: if you are right and I am wrong, then there is nothing lost. But if I am right, and you are not, you have lost heaven and being with God eternally.

We are certainly not here to only wait for heaven, goodness no! We are left here on earth to speak to others who were such as we were before the Good News was shared with us. Otherwise, God would immediately take the new Christian out of the world. But our work here is for Him, it is really our only purpose at that point. Looking forward to heaven in no way lessens this life work. It does, however, make it bearable, giving hope that this life is not all there is, and won't last forever.

[seeker1950]

Sky, and all of you,
I want to apologize for my post about Socrates' view of the afterlife.
Needless to say, I am ambivalent about what awaits when we die, but for those who truly believe in heaven, I am sorry for posting a somewhat agnostic viewpoint.
I'm not sure I believe in Heaven or Hell in the conventional sense.
Not sure what awaits us when we depart. I do like reading the Apostle Paul, who said, "to die is gain," but Socrates said this also.
I'm not sure we face judgment as described in Biblical terms, or if we are judged on our acts while here on this earth, though I wonder how criminals would be received vs. people who have lived a kind and caring life. I wonder if criminals and sociopaths were not created thru circumstances beyond their own control, and would not pass into some sort of enlightenment from the earthly body, be accepted by all ??? I just don't know.
Love
Patty

[(JD)]

Thank you for that.

Do you realize that there is more documentation that Christ lived, then there is that Socrates was real? Just a thought. Since you appear to be searching, be sure of what you are basing your decisions upon.