Its being a while and I still dont see evidence of fully recovered sz sufferers frequ

Wrong thread

Thank you for this thread.
A lot of valuable information here.

Guy had full sz recovered and went on to med school to become a psychiatrist to help others...what he's talking about is why hope is important to recovery.

One more thing I've noticed is an awful lot of recovered people can't just leave their dx behind....there is this strong need to help other people....most of the recovered people I've read about go into some sort of psychology, peer support or other advocacy. One guy was a mental health librarian. Elyn saks picked up a psych degree on top of her law degree...when you're actively seeing and helping people in real life there is less need to do it virtually...the rewards of irl interaction are more intense. Maybe that's why some of the highest level advocates don't do this online..they are already getting their fix somewhere else...I mean why go home and do what you already do at work all day?

Also you should ask atypical disaster about her psychiatrist who has sza...

Yeah , grand , recovery seems to be an area full of conflicting stories.

I'll tell you my understanding of this , i do think that high achieving sz are a minority in sz demographics. Amongst the general population 100 seems to be the average iq , with most filling in around that score. Now if thats the general course what kind of metrics would a sz demographic generate , the same median score? There are many studies that show that cognitive deficits around the area of attention and general cognitive function in youth and adolesents can be a predictor for developing mental illness. This is hard to take but this kind of data is hard to ignore , infact in a sea of mixed messages in this area , the truth is important in coming to a more measured and real assesment about life in general and ones relation to it. I encourage people to go out and look at the data. It strikes me that we all seem to be running around measuring ourselves against the expectation of others , i think to truely know oneself is an incredible advantage.

Well they are for sure a minority...people with relatively high IQs are always a minority even for well people something on the order of 1% but in that regard is the guy with a 100 IQ sitting at home writing a book every night or a blog or anything? Or is he just watching cable TV becuase he's stuck working 2 part time jobs trying to get by? What is he doing to advance the field...is he doing anything intersting enough to put in a book...hanging out with your friends at the pub is rarely worth writing about. If he's truly an average joe he may be married with kids and good luck finding time for anything else. I don't see a lot of "average" people who are sick or well writing books or advocating for anything. However, I don't see people with autism complaining when Tammet or Grandin represent them....are they average...in no way....can everyone live up to their standards...no. That's not the point of role models....they are there to break the glass ceiling. I mean at Yale somebody told Saks she should just take a year and work as a cashier in fast food...can you imagine...she was at the top of her class now has two advanced degrees and a MacArthur genius award and she could have been working part-time at McDonalds instead because some pdoc told her that was all she could do. It's not like they are laying out a plan that everyone can fufil it's more like there there was a tree that had fallen across the path and they pulled out a chainsaw and got to work restoring the road ahead for everyone who could follow. Some people have cars, some have bikes, some are just walking and at the end of the day some will have gotten farther down the road than others but they are all capable of making progress because somebody cleared the path. But you have to know the path is clear otherwise why do more than sit home and watch TV? All these people writing books and promoting advocacy are simply telling you the path is clear now. So where are the average guys? They are just walking the path...why write about walking the path when somebody has already made it across the country and written about the amazing things they've seen and done? What would be new about it? Sure I made it to the Grand Canyon and have lots of great pics but what if someone who is a much better photographer made it there two years ago and already posted pics? It doesn't mean I never made it to the Grand Canyon just that I would choose to put that kind of thing on Facebook for my immediate friends and family rather than flickr or deviantart. So picture an average guy...1% of the population has full sz and 25% recover...that means you have to know 400 people before you ever even meet one of these people. Let's increase the odds a bit because you would actually have to know them pretty well for them to disclose a sz diagnosis since they probably aren't an advocate but just a guy trying to get by. They aren't someone you will meet at the pdocs office because they are done with psych....they don't need peer support because they haven't had symptoms in twenty years...so you won't find them on PC. How would you ever meet one of these guys? So it seems like they don't really exist and yet they could be your neighbor. Go where there are lots of people and ask there. Have you tried reddit? I think you should...

I know you are not getting the specific answer you are looking for but you have opened up a conversation that is very important. For that I thank you Paulycoll.

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Yes i understand you are passionate about the area of mental illness. I am simply pointing out that people with a sz dx , are not usually able and capable of these huge feats of extraordinary achievment yet we have so many in the 'recovered' side , especially , the antipsychiatry contingent , that present such feats as plausible. I am saying , quite dispassionately , that this does not stack up when we look at the data. I think a basic human right , is that everyone deserves the truth. But people, sz included should certainly not take my word for it , look to the internet where there is a wealth of information. Everyone has a story , including me and we all have biases. And if someone does not want to apply themselves to a job or a relationship , if they want to watch tv , if they are asocial , i think its fine all i would ask is that they be informed.

The Internet is not the world...it is a walled garden...it's not people 's minds it's not secrets...it's a public space. This is like going to New York and expecting to find a recovered sz just because there are lots of people. What are the odds anyone would be discussing that in public much less at the particular coffee shops and restaurants you choose to frequent. Even if you asked me directly I would not likely provide an honest answer to a stranger. That means the only people you will see are advocates (or people seeking help)and they probably have a reason they became that, a sense that they had something to more give...this certainly isn't everyone. In my analogy...these are the people with cars...they can go places the people who are walking cannot reach in their lifetimes. The guys who are walking the path have say a 100 IQ they may be content to walk to the end of their street to see what's there and then stop or they may note that the path is clear but not walk at all. Some of them may not even be capable of walking....nothing is wrong with any of this...I'm saying everyone is not equally equipped to traverse the path...and no one is forcing anyone to walk or crawl or whatever....what the people in cars are saying is my God I made it to the end of your street and there is a beautiful place a pond filled with ducks and swans where people are picknicing I wish you could see it. I can tell you how to get there but I can't do it for you there is no way someone can make this journey for you. So basically you have a choice...what the recovered, the advocates, the people in cars are saying is if you made it to the duck pond and you liked that then there's even more to see and it's amazing. You just can't see it from here. So it's not that they are showing you pics of the Grand Canyon which you might never see in your life as some sort of trick it's that they don't want anybody telling you the only thing you can do is sit in your driveway. They want to give you the option...you don't have to take it, you might not be able to take it but the idea is knowing it exists should be a comfort not some sort of condemnation of your own choices or options. The reality is most people don't see the world but the ones that do those are the ones who write books about the world they are the ones making the maps. If all you have is a bike and you'd like to see the ocean one day you will need a map to get there...you can't just ride around randomly and expect to reach the ocean. Sure you might actually find it on your own but then again you may not...your best best is to ask someone who's been there...

And I have to say when you first started this thread I thought you were trying to find the ocean and wanted a guide who'd been there but what you are looking for is much more rare you are looking for someone on foot who not only spent their lifetime walking to the ocean but took the trouble to walk back into town to help someone else even though plenty of people with cars had popped in to hand out maps. If I were that guy walking I don't think I would go back...why not see the mountains next instead? Or why not enjoy my new life at the beach? Why go back when I was given the same map you were and I made it to the ocean? Why spend the rest of my life walking back to help you when I already know there have been people helping you before and I have nothing to add but the fact that I saw it too just like all the people in cars. Is that going to make you feel better or worse? What you're saying is that a man who's walking will never make it to the ocean...what could I possibly do to convice you otherwise....the people in cars have already shown you photos of this man frolicking at the beach after walking there (16-38% cure rate)but you are asking for is video because you believe that man must have actually had a car all along...and even then if the video comes from someone in a car you might not believe it. You are asking the man to walk back and save you personally when it is so much harder for him to do that than the people in cars.

What I'm saying is the path is the same for everyone and maps have been handed out in the form of books research papers blogs and videos ...your ability to walk the path might be different based on prognostic indicators, IQ etc. That doesn't mean there is no path or there is no ocean or that nobody simply walks to the ocean just because you yourself have never walked to the ocean or ever seen someone walking to the ocean. What your comment suggests is that not only can a man not walk to the ocean but he should be told that there is no way he will ever make it to the ocean because that is the harsh reality....he should settle for the duck pond at the end of the street because that's the best he can do. That's what used to happen....elyn saks working as a cashier or being locked away forever...no one is saying being a cashier is bad but if that is given as your only option I'm saying that is bad. No one is saying you have to win a Nobel prize or even have a mid-level career what they are saying is what we say to every little kid growing up...you know you can be president some day or an astronaut....no one actually does these things that I've ever met and yet they are being done...are you advocating that we tell our kids that they will never ever be what they want to be that they have no options...college is a waste of time for someone like you? I can't say I see the benefit of that.

If you choose to believe that nobody with full sz recovers and you spread it around the only thing you will accomplish is crushing dreams, reestablishing the glass ceiling, putting the tree back in the road....except this time the people in cars will be gone...why waste time cutting the tree out of the road for those people who just chopped down another one to replace it. Instead we will simply airlift anyone with a car to the other side of the tree....those of us with cars will wonder why the tree is maintained by this group of people when it makes things harder for us and entirely stops their own progress. I have to say I don't understand why you would like to block the path...life is a journey and you may never make it to the ocean but think of everything you will see along the way.

Sz is an unfortunate condition , obviously. So many people have views , anecdotes and opinion on this subject , I take much of what I hear with a pinch of salt. and think that's not a bad way to be. I take a different approach to you. I see information and knowledge as empowering , my idea of human dignity is about growing up and being able to take what's true regardless of how unpalatable that maybe. Should we act as big brother for people, No , should we sensor because we know whats best? , I don't believe so. and so, it is important to deliberate on and distinguish what is anecdotal, here-say , allegory, and opinion and what is factual.


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Well I'm only 18 and have had this for a while. So while I would not be the same person if I grew up without it, I'm going to try not to be some debbie downer that lets it define my life.

I'm not saying we should we should censor anything, from my perspective you're trying to discredit the few studies we do have despite the fact they are peer reviewed and are actually contrary to the prevailing opinion when they were published. I mean any of these researchers could have gotten into better journals if they had spun the data as no recovery thus confirming what was the prevailing idea at the time. All these studies are based on people who were told they could not recover...what happens when you tell people it's possible? But let's flip this around a minute...there is currently a 75% or higher chance you won't recover. That is the majority if people...if you want to see yourself as the majority be my guest...I prefer to think of myself as unique, special and gifted...and you'll have to excuse me if I choose to see you in the same light...

I believe this is a really important attitude. Bipolar may be part of my life and maybe I would be different if I never had it. However, I'm more than this illness. A lot more. And it's things like being a mom and wife and a writer and artist that I want to define me, not that I just happen to also have to deal with this annoying illness.

It's hard sometimes, but I am not bipolar... I have bipolar. And even if I never "recover" that doesn't mean I can't lead a life worth living.