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Old Feb 12, 2007, 08:44 AM
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I came across the article below in my wanderings this morning. Initially, I was going to add it to Daniel's thread, wherein he is not only identifying with "Being Daniel" in the Lion's Den he is potentially attempting to communiciate his sense of isolation in the place he currently finds himself.. Metaphor featured very strongly in my own experience -- so strongly that I've often said it is the "universal language of schizophrenia". Mystics and trauma victims also speak metaphor, in part because their personal experience is simply "too big" to be conveyed by any other means.

Those of you who are coping with psychosis and/or schizophrenia can use this understanding to better understand your own experience. Those of you who are caregivers to those going through psychosis or schizophrenia can use this understanding to better communicate with your loved one. Not everything has to be interpreted literally; often a metaphorical interpretation is far more relevant and insightful.

For example... many individuals in the midst of a psychotic episode self-identify with being a religious figure such as Jesus Christ. If we consider what it is that Christ symbolizes we may gain a better understanding of what that individual is currently experiencing.

If your "schizophrenic" child / friend /spouse says to you, "Hey, I think I'm Jesus!" don't take it literally unless you're certain that you're Mary, your husband's name is Joseph, and you've got a donkey out in the garage instead of a Suburu.

Neither should you shut-them out and close down the conversation by insisting that they couldn't possibly be Jesus. Instead, ask them why they feel like they're Jesus. What you may find is that they're touching into a form of deep compassion; they may have become acutely aware of the suffering around them, perhaps as a result of their own. Alternatively, they may be feeling overwhelmed by a sense of unconditional love and acceptance or they may be tapping into a heretofore unknown and restorative strength within themselves. Compassion, Love, Redemption -- all these are characteristics of the figure we know as Christ.

The same holds true if the Devil shows up. What does the Devil represent? Fear, Terror, Evil. If someone encounters "the Devil" in a state of psychosis, it can be a means of expressing that they are encountering fear, terror and a sense of evil.

In the aftermath of my own experience I turned to my husband and said, "I think I'm Jesus and I just killed the Devil." What was I really saying? What I was really saying is, "I have just used Love to conquer Fear." I simply expressed that sentiment using metaphor because it was all I was capable of in that moment.

Anyway... some excerpts from the article to illustrate my point.

<hr width=100% size=2>

Abstract
Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a psychological condition which may result from experiencing a traumatic event. Experts agree that individuals who suffer from PTSD often communicate using metaphors because it’s difficult to talk about the trauma in literal terms. Since communication about the traumatic event facilitates recovery, we can help individuals recover from trauma by learning to communicate with them using metaphorical language. This principle also applies to individuals experiencing other types of dissociative psychological conditions, such as schizophrenia.

Introduction
Chances are good that you or someone you know has experienced a traumatic event at least once in your lifetime. Many individuals who experience trauma will develop a psychological condition known as post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Evidence indicates that communication plays a critical role in helping individuals recover from PTSD. Due to emotional sensitivities, traumatized individuals will often (unwittingly) choose metaphors in place of literal language to describe their traumatic experiences. We can help individuals recover from traumatic events by learning to communicate with them using metaphorical language. ...

The Role of Metaphor
What is metaphor? In simplest terms, a metaphor is a form of expression in which one thing is likened to something else with similar properties. A metaphor is one of many kinds of trope, which is a “rhetorical figure of speech that consists of a play on words, i.e. using a word in a way other than what is considered its literal or normal form” (Wikipedia, 2006). “Metaphors are common in language because they are so useful,” says Burns (2004). “Every new experience is at first understood in terms of what we already know. Metaphors can convey so much with few words, yet often are evocative and easily remembered” (Burns, 2004).

For example, in the famous play “Romeo & Juliet” by William Shakespeare, Romeo exclaims that “Juliet is the sun!” In so doing, Romeo is using a metaphor in order to liken the brightness, warmth and power of the sun to how he feels about Juliet. As the audience, we understand intuitively from this expression that Romeo does not mean to say that Juliet is literally the sun. ...

Hallucinations and Delusions as Metaphor
While hallucinations and/or delusions may in some cases be an indicator of PTSD, they may in other cases be an indicator of schizophrenia or some form of psychosis. Regardless of which psychological condition is triggering the hallucinations, the same principle of recovery through communication applies. In his book, Phenomenology & Lacan on Schizophrenia, After the Decade of the Brain, Alphonse De Waelhens asserts that “hallucinations cannot simply be explained as nothing more than false perceptions” (Johnston, 2002). De Waelhens felt that hallucinations represented unconscious and spontaneous attempts at recovery from psychological pain by the individual who experienced them. Amendiola (1998) supports this idea when she states that individuals “are usually attempting to problem-solve, even in a dissociative date”. ...

The Ethics of Communicating via Metaphor
If a person says that he is a fish, it could mean many different things. It could mean that he is hallucinating. It could mean that he is delusional. It could mean that he is simply speaking poetically. Or, it could mean that he is attempting to express the nature of some trauma that he has suffered. There is a certain old-fashioned school of thought which dictates that any person expressing “false” perceptions should be “corrected” and made aware that their perception differs from the norm (Sidis, 1914). The reality is that it may be more helpful to him to attempt to understand what he is trying to communicate than it will be to insist that he is wrong.

This does not mean that one is being dishonest by electing to communicate with an individual using his choice of metaphor. It does not mean that others have to agree that they perceive him to be a fish. It only means that they are trying to understand why he perceives himself that way. Asking questions such as “What kind of fish?” will reveal more about his train of thought and thus serve to perpetuate communication along with healing.

Source: The Role of Metaphor in Recovery From Trauma

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Old Feb 12, 2007, 07:57 PM
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While I understand you are working on the term of 'metaphor' I wish to make a correction in another area of information. (And I wonder why you are using PTSD as an example in this forum, but ok.)
You posted:
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a psychological condition which may result from experiencing a traumatic event.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

First, PTSD is a MEDICAL condtion. and "The essential feature of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder is the development of characteristic symptoms following exposure to an extreme traumatic stressor involving direct personal experience of an event that involves actual or threatened death or serious injury, or other threat to one's physical integrity; or witnessing an event that involves death, injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of another person; or learning about unexpected or violent death, serious harm, or threat of death or injury experienced by a family member or other close associate (Criterion A1). The person's response to the event must involve intense fear, helplessness, or horror (or in children, the response must involve disorganized or agitated behavior) (Criterion A2). The characteristic symptoms resulting from the exposure to the extreme trauma include persistent reexperiencing of the traumatic event (Criterion B), persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma and numbing of general responsiveness (Criterion C), and persistent symptoms of increased arousal (Criterion D). The full symptom picture must be present for more than 1 month (Criterion E), and the disturbance must cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning (Criterion F). "

The way it is written in that short sentence sells it short. Thanks for letting me input here!
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Old Feb 12, 2007, 08:33 PM
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Sky: And I wonder why you are using PTSD as an example in this forum...

Primarily because of this... This principle also applies to individuals experiencing other types of dissociative psychological conditions, such as schizophrenia.

This... Metaphor featured very strongly in my own experience -- so strongly that I've often said it is the "universal language of schizophrenia". Mystics and trauma victims also speak metaphor, in part because their personal experience is simply "too big" to be conveyed by any other means.

This... The Trauma Model.

This... Susan Lien Whigham

This...Spirituality &amp; Trauma

And this... Psychosis, PTSD, and Story as a Vehicle of Healing

Sky: The way it is written in that short sentence sells it short. Thanks for letting me input here!

I'm very much in favor of clarification of terms, particularly when there is a crossover of information that could be beneficial to more than one group. Thanks for sharing.

<hr width=100% size=2>

See also: <a href=http://spiritualrecoveries.blogspot.com/2006/05/how-to-produce-acute-schizophrenic.html">How to Produce an Acute Schizophrenic Break</a>

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Old Feb 12, 2007, 09:00 PM
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Ok. Thanks.

However, now I see another questionable statement. Where in the DSM IV does it have that schizophrenia is a dissociative disorder? I believe it is considered a psychotic disorder.
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Old Feb 17, 2007, 12:57 AM
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Yeah... I noticed that too. Dissociation and Psychosis are different from each other.

Are you trained in this stuff or pulling up other articles for us to read?
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Old Feb 17, 2007, 01:02 AM
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<blockquote>I speak from my own experience girlbassplayer, including those aspects and perspectives I found most helpful in my own recovery. That said, the vast majority of authors I cite are professionally accredited. If you wish to dispute the facts as they present them, I suggest you contact them directly.

Dissociation and Psychosis are different from each other.

Have you read those links, including those included here?

<font size=1>[Edited for links.]</font></blockquote>

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Old Feb 17, 2007, 01:52 AM
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Here are some definitions:

Dissociation is a psychological state or condition in which certain thoughts, emotions, sensations, or memories are separated from the rest of the psyche. For this reason, it is sometimes referred to as "splitting." (Wikipedia, February 2007)

Psychosis (not to be confused with psychopathy) is a generic psychiatric term for a mental state in which thought and perception are severely impaired. Persons experiencing a psychotic episode may experience hallucinations, hold delusional beliefs (e.g., grandiose or paranoid delusions), demonstrate personality changes and exhibit disorganized thinking (see thought disorder). (Wikipedia, February 2007)

Dissociation: In psychology and psychiatry, a perceived detachment of the mind from the emotional state or even from the body. Dissociation is characterized by a sense of the world as a dreamlike or unreal place and may be accompanied by poor memory of the specific events, which in severe form is known as dissociative amnesia. (http://www.medterms.com/script/main/...ticlekey=38857)

Psychosis Definition: Psychosis is a loss of contact with reality, typically including delusions (false ideas about what is taking place or who one is) and hallucinations (seeing or hearing things which aren't there). (http://www.healthscout.com/ency/1/001553.html)

Based on that, alone either of those experiences are not the same. They are part of seperate groups under the DSM-IV, as dissociative disorders and Psychotic disorders. That's not to say people with a psychotic disorder don't experience dissociation or vice versa, but as a singular meaning/experience they are different.
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Old Feb 17, 2007, 02:25 AM
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Would you feel comfortable answering these questions bassgirlplayer?

a.) Do you carry the diagnosis of PTSD?

b.) Does the thought that those around you might consider you to be "schizophrenic" make you highly uncomfortable?

Naturally, you are under no obligation to provide an answer. I ask those questions because I've noticed there is a strong desire on the part of many to distance themselves from those who have frequently been deemed to be the most ill, the most hopeless, the most flawed. I've wondered at times if this is a form of compensation, almost as if one is saying to themselves, "Hey, I've got some problems, but at least I'm not .... "

I've found that if an individual carries such a response within them then there is little I can say that might allow them to accept that trauma plays a significant role in the experiences of many schizophrenics. They hear/see that word and they want absolutely nothing to do with it.

"Psychosis Definition: Psychosis is a loss of contact with reality, typically including delusions (false ideas about what is taking place or who one is) and hallucinations (seeing or hearing things which aren't there). (http://www.healthscout.com/ency/1/001553.html)"

Individuals undergoing a flashback are experiencing a break with reality. What distinguishes this passage from psychosis versus a flashback is the depth of perceptiveness I can bring to my own observations. If I can understand the cause of the flashback, it no longer appears irrational to me. If I don't understand it, if I have no knowledge of trauma responses, it just looks weird and frightening.

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Old Feb 17, 2007, 02:43 AM
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or is it they just do not know so they label it as such?
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Old Feb 17, 2007, 04:22 AM
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<blockquote>
mlyn: or is it they just do not know so they label it as such?

Yes, but can you sing it?

See also: Recovering Body & Soul from PTSD

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Old Feb 17, 2007, 08:02 PM
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
spiritual_emergency said:
Would you feel comfortable answering these questions bassgirlplayer?

a.) Do you carry the diagnosis of PTSD?

b.) Does the thought that those around you might consider you to be "schizophrenic" make you highly uncomfortable?

Naturally, you are under no obligation to provide an answer. I ask those questions because I've noticed there is a strong desire on the part of many to distance themselves from those who have frequently been deemed to be the most ill, the most hopeless, the most flawed. I've wondered at times if this is a form of compensation, almost as if one is saying to themselves, "Hey, I've got some problems, but at least I'm not .... "

I've found that if an individual carries such a response within them then there is little I can say that might allow them to accept that trauma plays a significant role in the experiences of many schizophrenics. They hear/see that word and they want absolutely nothing to do with it.

"Psychosis Definition: Psychosis is a loss of contact with reality, typically including delusions (false ideas about what is taking place or who one is) and hallucinations (seeing or hearing things which aren't there). (http://www.healthscout.com/ency/1/001553.html)"

Individuals undergoing a flashback are experiencing a break with reality. What distinguishes this passage from psychosis versus a flashback is the depth of perceptiveness I can bring to my own observations. If I can understand the cause of the flashback, it no longer appears irrational to me. If I don't understand it, if I have no knowledge of trauma responses, it just looks weird and frightening.



</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

First of all, it's nobody's business but mine what mental illness I have. I'm trying to avoid getting defensive here as you've greatly implied, whether that was consciously or by accident, that I think of myself as better than those who have worse problems.

However, I don't have PTSD, and I'm not schizophrenic so people viewing me as such are quite mistaken, (nobody has ever mistaken me for a schizophrenic, aside from people assuming my disorder is a version of it). If people did assume this, I wouldn’t really be bothered… I’d correct them and explain the circumstance (depending on who is making the assumptions and in what context).

Everybody's experience is different; I don't think anyone is more hopeless or more ill than anyone else. There is always hope. As for being "the most flawed"... I don't find my illness to have made me "flawed" because I've been given gifts with my illness (ones that I won't bother getting into). If I walked around with that attitude I don’t think I’d get anywhere.

I have no doubts trauma plays a part in psychosis or schizophrenia. However, not every person who experiences a trauma experiences dissociation or PTSD. In fact, plenty of people experience trauma, come out shaken but with neither of those problems. It’s like saying majority of American’s consume fast food so they must all be obese. It’s a generalization.

A flashback and a hallucination/delusion are two very separate experiences. I’ve had both, for one reason or another, and I would never consider grouping them together. I've also experienced de-realization which is somewhat considered a form of dissociation and I don't find it anything like a hallucination/delusion. It's quite different.
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Old Feb 17, 2007, 08:11 PM
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bassgirlplayer: First of all, it's nobody's business but mine what mental illness I have.

I think that's your right.

I'm trying to avoid getting defensive here as you've greatly implied, whether that was consciously or by accident, that I think of myself as better than those who have worse problems.

Actually, my reason for asking was simply to ask. I have noticed that pattern of behavior in others before and rather than assume that you were operating from the same, I asked you if you were. You say you're not and that's good enough for me.

However, not every person who experiences a trauma experiences dissociation or PTSD. In fact, plenty of people experience trauma, come out shaken but with neither of those problems. It’s like saying majority of American’s consume fast food so they must all be obese. It’s a generalization.

I can't recall stating at any point that every individual who experiences trauma will go on to develop PTSD although I can appreciate that this is a statement that needs to be said.

.
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Old Feb 17, 2007, 11:35 PM
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I would be careful in quoting from wikipedia, as it is written by such as me and some not as bright The Role of Metaphor [In Schizophrenia and Trauma] keep quoting from reliable sources instead?
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Old Feb 18, 2007, 02:42 PM
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
_Sky said:
I would be careful in quoting from wikipedia, as it is written by such as me and some not as bright The Role of Metaphor [In Schizophrenia and Trauma] keep quoting from reliable sources instead?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Thats why I put alternative sources as well.
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Old Feb 18, 2007, 02:54 PM
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Something wiki this way comes from Wednesday February 7, 2007
EducationGuardian.co.uk

College bans students from citing Wikipedia in schoolwork from Claire Olhsen
Posted: 2/9/07 from The Daily Reveille

Wary of wikipedia from Sunday, 02/18/07
Wary of Wikipedia
Global search engine's accuracy questioned
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Old Feb 18, 2007, 03:08 PM
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I'm well aware. I've done several research papers and never use wikipedia as a source, however you'll note that the citations from wikipedia in this case are almost identical to those from reputable medical sites.
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Old Feb 18, 2007, 03:12 PM
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just helps to remind folks that online doesn't equal true, valid, or real.

wiki, google, yahoo, and other such names that have entered the vernacular in the past decade sometimes are given more credit than deserved.

the Internet is a great way to start info searches on medical topics but it can be limiting to think that wiki is comprehensive in its accuracy of articles or links.

a gentle reminder of being wary of sources when seeking information.
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Old Feb 18, 2007, 03:55 PM
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Could I respectfully suggest that participants to this thread try to stay on topic.

I am aware that conversations can wander into parallel fields -- a current example is the discussion that has taken place in the "Church or Cult?" thread where the conversation has strayed into the validity of religious experience -- however, the topic of this thread is "the use of metaphor as a communication device during a schizophrenic break" and I fail to see where Wikipedia plays a significant role in that.

If participants wish to discuss the role of trauma as it relates to psychosis, they could do so here: PTSD and Schizophrenia. If they wish to discuss the merits of Wikipedia, I would suggest that they initiate a new topic in the most suitable forum. Naturally, readers are well advised to check the credibility of any sources listed anywhere on the net.


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Old Feb 18, 2007, 03:59 PM
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Naturally, readers are well advised to check the credibility of any sources listed anywhere on the net.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> agreed. and when folks post numerous links and others in the community respond with cautionary reminders to check sources it shows the degree of community concern for others dealing with issues relating to mental health/disease/disorder/or whatever terminology you use.

separate threads help when a thread goes hijacked but also a few interjections of support offered up kindly can be found helpful by some in the community.
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Old Feb 18, 2007, 04:07 PM
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Valid points ___zh. My concern is that the primary topic has been hijacked. Most of the responses in this thread are related to:

a.) Trauma, dissociation and breaks with reality -- issues that already have a thread devoted to them within this forum, and;

b.) The credibility of Wikipedia as a source. Personally, I invest a great deal of time in my sources. As much as possible I quote clinicians in the field and cite medical journals. If someone wishes to dispute a link I've included they are welcome to do so, however I don't as a general rule link to Wikipedia.


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Old Feb 18, 2007, 05:31 PM
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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Abstract
Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a psychological condition which may result from experiencing a traumatic event. Experts agree that individuals who suffer from PTSD often communicate using metaphors because it’s difficult to talk about the trauma in literal terms. Since communication about the traumatic event facilitates recovery, we can help individuals recover from trauma by learning to communicate with them using metaphorical language. This principle also applies to individuals experiencing other types of dissociative psychological conditions, such as schizophrenia.


</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Wow-- this is so interesting. I've never heard of some people with trauma in their past thinking in metaphors. That is so reassuring to me..... as I've done this as far back as I can remember and thought it was just me! The Role of Metaphor [In Schizophrenia and Trauma]

I used to hear this so much,--- "Mandy, you're not making any sense!"..... when it was plain as day to me! The Role of Metaphor [In Schizophrenia and Trauma]

I've spent so much inner energy trying to figure out why others found it so hard to understand me when I thought I was communicating so clearly--- *sigh*.... thank you for this. I am going to do further study on it.

I wonder if my former therapist knew about this.... as he would intentionally point out when I was talking in metaphors and sometimes he would even understand them.

Thank you again for sharing.

mandy ps.....
Sorry for the delay in my reply... this whole place -Psychcentral- can seem so huge for me.... I often get overwhelmed and then experience a sensory overload or something The Role of Metaphor [In Schizophrenia and Trauma] .....then I have to leave and come back when I can concentrate on one thing at a time.
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Old Apr 22, 2007, 11:12 PM
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This fits well here...

<blockquote>
METAPHORS OF TRANSFORMATION with RALPH METZNER, Ph.D.

JEFFREY MISHLOVE, Ph.D.: Hello and welcome. Our program tonight is going to deal with "Metaphors of Transformation," and my guest, Dr. Ralph Metzner, is a professor and academic dean of the California Institute of Integral Studies, and the author of several books, including Maps of Consciousness and Opening to Inner Light. Ralph is also extremely well known for having co-authored The Psychedelic Experience back in the 1960s with Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert. Welcome, Ralph. It's a pleasure to have you here.

RALPH METZNER, Ph.D.: Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

MISHLOVE: You've gone through quite a journey of transformation yourself since the psychedelic years. In your most recent book, what you've attempted to do is to look at the various metaphors in spiritual traditions and other traditions that deal with human transformations, and show how they do apply, and how they're useful road maps, so to speak. What is a metaphor, really, and why would a metaphor be important or useful?

METZNER: Well, before saying that, I'd like to say something about this concept of transformation of consciousness, which actually on a personal note started for me with the research that we did with psychedelics in the sixties, because it was at that time for me -- and I'm not saying that this is necessarily so for others, although it was for some -- a crucial turning point. And the turning point in consciousness, I think, could be described something like this: that it was like for the first time, at the time of my first experience with psychedelics, I realized that the external world, the reality that we perceive, isn't just something that is unalterably given, but rather depends to a very great degree on things going on within myself -- namely my attitudes, my choices, my values, my feelings, and my beliefs. And that experience started me off on a quest which I've been on ever since, which is to discover, really, the basic underlying principles and the methods by means of which such transformations of consciousness occur, and also how they can be applied in healing, in psychotherapy, in education, in learning, and in personal and spiritual growth.

MISHLOVE: At some point in this process the notion of metaphors became very important to you.

METZNER: Right. So what I realized, after studying the very many different systems of consciousness transformation, the ancient spiritual traditions of East and West, and also studying the accounts of people today who undergo a transformative experience, whether that be in psychotherapy or spontaneously in their everyday life, is that certain consistencies emerge. And it seemed to me, when I first started noticing it, that although there may be hundreds of specific techniques -- techniques including breath and meditation and yoga and energy and light and sound and drugs and many other methods, psychotherapy --

MISHLOVE: Chanting, prayer --

METZNER: Chanting -- I mean, they go on and on and on -- shamanic methods, and so forth. And you find the many different methods used in the various traditions, and also in contemporary work -- that people are rediscovering many of these ancient methods. But there seem to be only a dozen or so basic patterns of the transformation itself, how it is experienced -- the phenomenology of it, one would say. And these patterns are described in the form of metaphors. And they're described as metaphors because ordinary language has a very hard time dealing with these states and these transformations, because by definition they are a transformation out of the ordinary into the non-ordinary, the extraordinary, the supernatural, the miraculous, as it's sometimes called, the magical, the transcendent, the sacred, the mysterious -- many different terms that point to other kinds of realms of being, or other kinds of realms of consciousness that lie outside of the framework of our usual view of reality.

Read more: Metaphors of Transformation</blockquote>


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