[junkDNA]

im an atheist . i dont spend time thinking about higher powers etc. there was a point in my psychosis when i was a teenager that i thought i was possessed by my grandfather who killed himself. i thought he was haunting me and his voice was the voice i heard that kept telling me to kill myself. i believed that for a while. like even into 2010. i remember telling T about it. but anyway these days ... i dont think much about it. about god or whatever or the afterlife. to me its pointless for me to think about.

Originally Posted by newtus

From all you just said - I feel like that last sentence you said is somewhat contradictory. because at first your talking about not believing in god and then you say "how much of a conscious choice is faith?". then there at the end you say "i could choose to believe that the sky is green...how long will it take before a conscious decision becomes accepted belief?"

well believing in a god...is about faith. right now im thinking: do you have faith the sky is green?. when you look at the sky what do you physically see? and then what do you feel? - is most important question next. what does it mean to you and other people for the sky to be green?

a lot of religions not just the major 3 ones have a lot to do with how people feel towards themselves and others. but thats only part of religion. im not schooled on every religion but doesnt every religion have a free will? i know a lot do. you can choose to believe something and find its purpose for why it is in this world.

why is the sky green? whats its purpose for being green? maybe it being green can teach us something that other people are missing out on. maybe something that everyone is missing out on and we should band together to tell others how important it is.

idk if im making sense but im just trying to solidify the meaning of faith in religion and the free will we have as humans to make the decision to have faith in things. how much of a conscious decision is faith? well faith is basically believing blindly. but thats not a negative thing.

I don't fully understand if you are agreeing with me or not, or in part, sorry. I find understanding what I'm reading much harder than I used to, especially if it's abstract like philosophy is.

The belief in the sky being green was perhaps not a very good example as it doesn't have any purpose like me choosing to believe in god would (to provide comfort). I used to believe in god and was a Christian around 8-12yo, and I found it very comforting to believe in a benevolent god and a heaven where my Nan was watching over me and we would meet again after death. I don't feel like that was a conscious decision to believe though.

I tried consciously to believe in god when I stopped until I was 16-17 as I was very unhappy and I wanted the comfort I used to have from faith in god, but I just couldn't. Same as I don't think telling myself the sky is green 50x a day would make me truly believe it.

I like what Ody said in roll call about the path in the forest and choosing to believe it leads to a way out, and I guess choosing to believe in a god is positive like his example...but I'm stuck on how to go about it. It would be 'better' (ie less distressing) for me not to believe that the Govt is surveilling and torturing me too, but I don't know how to not believe that when every fibre of my being says it's true and that my family and I are in danger.

I guess I vaguely believe in something spiritual, like a life force in all living things (I don't know if I consider that akin to the soul), and maybe I could find comfort in that without the god entity...but I'm concerned about it going too far. I don't trust my reason or my intuition since whatever-this-is because it's messed up my life and people tell me that I'm wrong so much. I guess I'm worried that I might get 'carried away' if I explored my spirituality and completely lose touch with consensus reality in a way that is very damaging to me or others.

I guess I'm really just 'thinking out loud' as I know there are no certainties with any of these topics.

*Willow*

Originally Posted by WeepingWillow23

I like what Ody said in roll call about the path in the forest and choosing to believe it leads to a way out, and I guess choosing to believe in a god is positive like his example...but I'm stuck on how to go about it...

I guess I vaguely believe in something spiritual, like a life force in all living things (I don't know if I consider that akin to the soul), and maybe I could find comfort in that without the god entity...but I'm concerned about it going too far. I don't trust my reason or my intuition since whatever-this-is because it's messed up my life and people tell me that I'm wrong so much. I guess I'm worried that I might get 'carried away' if I explored my spirituality and completely lose touch with consensus reality in a way that is very damaging to me or others.

I guess I'm really just 'thinking out loud' as I know there are no certainties with any of these topics.

*Willow*

Willow, the only certainties we have are in mathematics. We can make deductive arguments, but those may be based on false premises. For instance, Socrates is a man. All men are mortal. Therefore, Socrates is mortal. Well, Socrates might not be a man, so there lies the faulty premise. Logic only gets us so close to truth and then fails us so hard. Truths won are always tentative. Even with myself, my most intimate believes are stalked by doubt at every corner! It's part of a rational creature to question. It's part of the examined life we ought to take part in.

Regarding the path you see in the forest, I think it's time to share Plato's Allegory of the Cave and the way out that he doesn't make apparent at first blush. So hold on and read all the way through:

Plato's Allegory of the Cave. Allegory of the Cave - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Imagine yourself in a dark cave. You have lived in this dark, dungy cave your entire life. Your hands are chained. In front of you are flickering lights that move like shadows on the walls. Having been down here so long, you understand that the flotsam and jetsam of shadows on the wall in front of you is actual reality. However, there is a fire behind you and people are showing you shadows that they want you to see. They are deceiving by representing reality in this way.

Symbolism: The chains represents how our bodies are chained to our senses, and how dependent we are on our sense perception. We believe what we see and hear so easily. Furthermore, the senses can often deceive us (as schizophrenia shows). The shadows on the wall is not reality. The darkness symbolizes ignorance.

One day, one of men gets loose from his chains... Amazed, unsure but moved, he begins to turn around and sees a faint light at the end of a tunnel. To get to it, he climbs a ladder and goes out into the sunlit world for the first time. His eyes are blinded by the light. He can't see anything initially. Time continues and then his eyes adjusts and he is able to see reality as it is.

Symbolism: The sun is pure knowledge like that of mathematics. Think Pythagoras, or for those who don't know him, think of a mind like his, Isaac Newton who sees reality as based on harmonious mathematical relationships. Furthermore, why does it take his eyes time to adjust? Well, it takes time to learn how things work abstractly. Remember, he isn't in the realm of sense perception anymore. The sun represents a different sort of understanding that is rational, logical and abstract. Sense perception is immediate. Whereas, mathematics takes time (for your eyes to adjust).

This is the path to enlightenment for Plato, but the question remains, Willow this part speaks to you directly, what motivated him? The path out of the cave and up the ladder, leading outside to enlightenment is a serious path to follow. How does one follow or know whether this is the correct path?

Enter Plato's dialogue The Symposium Symposium (Plato) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There was an all night drinking party amongst a group of men, Socrates included. They spoke of love and beauty on this night, each man giving their own interpretation. Socrates chose to tell a story about a mysterious woman from Mantinea who gave him knowledge of beauty, because who better to explain beauty than by a beautiful, wise woman?

In the conclusion of her exposition Diotima explains that men should make an ascent to arrive at the discovery of the Ideal Form of Beauty. Men should start with the love of a particular beautiful person. The next step is to pass from this particular instance to beauty in general, and from physical to moral beauty. The fourth step is to attain the love of wisdom, and then from this to the appreciation of the absolute and beauty absolute (the Form of abstract Beauty).

Arrest their heart and you open their mind, Willow. The way out of the cave is to ascend this ladder of beauty that Diotima points us towards. Beauty moves and summons us. It drives us up paths, ladders, and into the sunlight. It can elevate, uplift and save us.

What drove Dante through hell but his love for Beatrix. What saved Faust but his love Gretchen. What saved Theseus but the aiding love of Ariadne. What led Odysseus down the path but his beautiful, faithful wife Penelope.

Doubt plagues my most cherished beliefs. Still, what is beautiful is true, and to be those are to be good. That was the Greek ideal and I believe it's timeless. There is doubt in my beliefs, that is certain. Doubt is part of being a rational being. But, I hope that each of us rise to struggle and strive to live a beautiful life with beautiful thoughts. I for one believe beauty can save us. For me, the idea of a God is beautiful. I'm optimistic that there is one but again, doubt plagues my most cherished beliefs.

Something I've noticed about loials signature;

__________________
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

Then I thought.. Well it's better to be delusional then? (With social term of "hope" taken into consideration when not used lightly-so literally) And then thought.. No because you can have hope while knowing it might not happen..but.. is the same as real hope where you are... Delusional.. Because hope isn't a prediction..

Nvm I confused faith with hope - scrap it

K so I googled delusion. It's a psychiatric term to refer is one is mentally I'll I'm some way which has nothing to do with faith because I don't want even get into religion so