[newtus]

Here is the Philosophy thread for all things philosophy. I feel as if people with many mental illnesses including schizophrenia philosophize.

To start off...here is my favorite excerpt from my favorite philosopher: Jean-Paul Sartre: Book "Existentialism and Human Emotions":

This young fellow might well have felt that he had botched everything. It was a sign of something but of what? He might have taken refuge in bitterness or despair. But he very wisely looked upon all this as a sign that he was not made for secular triumphs and that only the triumphs of religion - holiness - and faith were open to him. He saw the hand of God in all this and so entered the order.

You can buy it off amazon here:
http://www.amazon.com/Existentialism.../dp/0806509023

What does that quote mean to you Newtus?

[newtus]

Originally Posted by 0dysseus

What does that quote mean to you Newtus?

good question!

it probably doesnt mean what i think it means. but what I personally interpret it as is - that i want to have to all this power and money and basically worldly power in life. mainly power. you know...secular things. but maybe through what my illness has given me signs that maybe thats not what i should be doing. that maybe in fact i should be triumphing in something religious or spiritual. idk.
idk that was my initial reponse to reading that line. when i read that line maybe 2 years ago or so.

but its weird because idk if im confusing nietzche with sartre in thinking that - that line probably has nothing to do with God or religion. but idk thats just what i personally got out of it initially. and then another thing - with it being philosophy i feel i need to think the line more thoroughly in its meaning rather than just whats verbally presented on the page.

It's an interesting quote because Sartre is a known existentialist who is secular, believed in no god. Still, the mind of one of believes in the existence of a deity must find a certain peace, even beauty. We have a choice. We can either look upon the vast cosmos with despair as we perceive the flux of death and rebirth or see hope and order in things. I choose the latter. Maybe there is a God. I could be wrong and all good arguments are welcome.

[newtus]

i really like talking to you Ody. I hope you dont mind me calling you Ody.

Originally Posted by newtus

good question!

it probably doesnt mean what i think it means. but what I personally interpret it as is - that i want to have to all this power and money and basically worldly power in life. mainly power. you know...secular things. but maybe through what my illness has given me signs that maybe thats not what i should be doing. that maybe in fact i should be triumphing in something religious or spiritual. idk.
idk that was my initial reponse to reading that line. when i read that line maybe 2 years ago or so.

but its weird because idk if im confusing nietzche with sartre in thinking that - that line probably has nothing to do with God or religion. but idk thats just what i personally got out of it initially. and then another thing - with it being philosophy i feel i need to think the line more thoroughly in its meaning rather than just whats verbally presented on the page.

You're interpreting it just fine. Part of existentialism is that you can't pin down a definition, it's up for interpretation so all interpretations, including your own, are welcome.
I think even a spiritual or religious person dons the philosopher's cap. Money has power but I think a greater power is the power to move people. Arrest their hearts and you open their minds. The question now is how to do that... What must a person go through in order to understand what moves a heart? You must have chaos within to give birth to a dancing star, Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

Ody is what all the people in the Chat call me, Newtus. I enjoy talking to you too.

[newtus]

Heres another excerpt from the same book i liked:

Existentialism is nothing else than an attempt to draw all the consequences of a coherent atheistic position. It isnt trying to plunge man into despair at all. But if one calls every attitude of unbelief despair - like the Christians - then the word is not being used in its original sense. Existentialism isnt so atheistic that is wears itself out showing that God doesnt exist. Rather it declares that even if God did exist, that would change nothing. There youve got our point of view. Not that we believe God exists but we think that the problem of His existence is not the issue. In this sense Existentialism is optimistic, a doctrine of action and it is plain honesty for Christians to make no distinction between their own despair and ours and then to call us despairing

Kierkagaard was one of the souls of existentialism and he was a devout Christian. Him and Nietzsche have much in common, but Kant changed everything. Kant made it clear that one can't know for certain whether there is a God or not. Therefore, Nietzsche proclaimed God is dead, and that we (Kant) have killed him. He didn't mean this enthusiastically but tragically. Tragically because:

And thus spoke Zarathustra to the people: "The time has come for man to set himself a goal. The time has come for man to plant the seed of his highest hope. His soil is still rich enough. But one day this soil will be poor and domesticated, and no tall tree will be able to grow in it. Alas, the time is coming when man will no longer shoot the arrow of his longing beyond man, and the string of his bow will have forgotten how to whir!

The longing which Nietzsche is talking about is for God. Since, God is dead we no longer have a reason to string our bows or aim them for something beyond man, beyond the stars. It's all quite beautiful and existential, but there's plenty of reasons for us to still string our bows and plenty of hopes to aim for, even God.

I like your quote. Everyone goes through despair. It's part of the human condition. We in this forum know this quite intimately, atheistic or otherwise.

I once read a book, the author's last name was Hughes I believe. It was when I was in my intro to philosophy class. The main thesis of the book was that religion mattered because it created meaning. Existentialism is all about creating meaning also, it's just taking a different approach. Still, the big step in life is to find meaning and a purpose.

With religion you were born with a meaning and a purpose, but existentialism turns that on it's head and says FIRST you were born THEN it's your duty to give YOURSELF meaning. It's not given to you by god, it's self defined.

[likewater]

I think my "mental illness" allows me to cut past a lot of the shallow in condequential bs in life. I see beauty even in the most horrible days. I don't think I would trade my life for a more traditional brained person's and I've had an affinity for every existentialist I've met. Do you both like Henry David Thoreau?

[newtus]

yea i have a few of Kierkegaards book.

[neil w]

Glad you started this thread Newtus i havent read much modern philosophy so I'm looking forward to the discussions! You've already prompted me to look at the context of your original quote and Sartre makes his meaning clear in this case by quoting Descarte: "conquer yourself rather than the world". If we try to adapt worldly things to our will, we are destined to fail because we can never account for all the possibilities involved in worldy endeavours.

I think it's also worth noting at the outset that all philosophies are a reaction to the thoughts and writings of previous eras, and a reflection of their contemporary culture. philosophy moves in trends and cycles and we can find parallels to existentialism in the stoics of ancient greece and rome, and even the humanists of the renaissance. Some modern philosohers will be aware of these parallels and some wont.

[newtus]

Originally Posted by neil w

Glad you started this thread Newtus i havent read much modern philosophy so I'm looking forward to the discussions! You've already prompted me to look at the context of your original quote and Sartre makes his meaning clear in this case by quoting Descarte: "conquer yourself rather than the world". If we try to adapt worldly things to our will, we are destined to fail because we can never account for all the possibilities involved in worldy endeavours.

I think it's also worth noting at the outset that all philosophies are a reaction to the thoughts and writings of previous eras, and a reflection of their contemporary culture. philosophy moves in trends and cycles and we can find parallels to existentialism in the stoics of ancient greece and rome, and even the humanists of the renaissance. Some modern philosohers will be aware of these parallels and some wont.

thanks neil. you are free to talk about any era of philosophy here. i just have my preferences set on modern philosophy. maybe because i feel it speaks to me more idk.

[neil w]

i'd rather learn about modern philosophy, it's fresh to me and a little embarrassing that i know so little about it. Im sure that wont stop me from pointing out precursors and parallels once in a while though!

[newtus]

Do any of you guys know of or like Michele Foucault? He has a great book called Madness. Which talks about a lot of psychological conditions. One of my favorite books next to Sartres book.

[newtus]

my fav band is The Mars Volta and they have a lot of semi-philosophical lyrics.

heres some lyrics from their song "Eriatarka"

And there are those who
Hadn't found the speaking so wrong
Is it wrong
Of Pavlov lore
They ran rampant through the floors
Is this wrong
Feels so wrong
Happened on a respirator
In the basements
Are they gone are they gone
Stung the slang of a gallows bird
Rationed a dead letter pure
Trackmarked amoeba lands craft
Cartwheel of scratches
Dress the tapeworm as pet
Tentacles smirk please
Flinched the cocooned meat
Infra-recon forgets
Now there are those who find
Comfort in the breathing
Wrong-is it wrong
It houses the watchful eyes
They're panting in a pattern in droves
Are they gone

its hard to understand
you can listen to the song on youtube here:

[newtus]

heres another band i consider to be semi-philosophic. Tool.

from their song Parabola.

We barely remember who or what came before this precious moment,
We are choosing to be here right now. Hold on, stay inside
This holy reality, this holy experience.
Choosing to be here in

This body. This body holding me. Be my reminder here that I am not alone in
This body, this body holding me, feeling eternal
All this pain is an illusion.

Alive, I

on youtube:

I will be reading this thread with interest, though I know very little about philosophy. I read a fiction book called Sophie's World by Jostein Gaarder/Gaardner when I was a teenager, that I found really interesting. It's about a girl who learns about philosophy from this magical old man and they travel back in time together. Not very high brow lol but it did introduce me to the concept of philosophy. I've never had the opportunity to study it formally in the past, and I find it hard to fully understand now with my reading issues, so I'm hoping that this thread will make philosophy a bit easier to understand (do they do a Philosophy for Dummies book?! Lol)

Anyway, I'll be at the back taking notes!

*Willow*

[newtus]

yes they have a philosophy book for dummies as well as a quick guide to philosophy.

Originally Posted by newtus

yes they have a philosophy book for dummies as well as a quick guide to philosophy.

I might have a look at that then, thanks! Though if I'm completely honest, any more books I buy will likely just end up on the top of the massive teetering pile of books, both fiction & non-fiction, on top of my bookcase that I have not even attempted to start reading for months...

*Willow*

Originally Posted by WeepingWillow23

I will be reading this thread with interest, though I know very little about philosophy. I read a fiction book called Sophie's World by Jostein Gaarder/Gaardner when I was a teenager, that I found really interesting. It's about a girl who learns about philosophy from this magical old man and they travel back in time together. Not very high brow lol but it did introduce me to the concept of philosophy. I've never had the opportunity to study it formally in the past, and I find it hard to fully understand now with my reading issues, so I'm hoping that this thread will make philosophy a bit easier to understand (do they do a Philosophy for Dummies book?! Lol)

Anyway, I'll be at the back taking notes!

*Willow*

It's my life long dream to write a book in that genre. Something like Plato's dialogues but with a science fiction bent to it. Ender's game meet's Sophie's world with Socrates as the teacher. I have 40 pages of notes on it so far. My new years resolution was to make an outline by the end of the year.

Originally Posted by WeepingWillow23

I might have a look at that then, thanks! Though if I'm completely honest, any more books I buy will likely just end up on the top of the massive teetering pile of books, both fiction & non-fiction, on top of my bookcase that I have not even attempted to start reading for months...

*Willow*

Some classic introduction to philosophy books are Bertrand Russell's "A History of Western Philosophy" And "The Philosophy Book" was Digestible too. That one has pictures and diagrams that relate to philosophy which is great. "The Story of Philosophy" was another one like it that I enjoyed. I always love brief introductions.

My Lexapro (SSRI) is starting to rear its evil head. I'm having a beer for lunch to cope with it. What it does to my consciousness is takes away emotion and I think this post belongs in this thread because we're all like fish in water. That water being consciousness. Does the fish know what water is like? That it is wet? What is consciousness like, is it wet? Can we step outside of consciousness to judge it? I don't think we can, because consciousness gives us the very means to judge anything and everything.

This makes me question just what a soul is. Is it eternal and indestructible or mortal. Either way, I think it's our duty to harmonize the chaos within the soul. To realize our drives and instincts, harness those to our reason and live a conscious life. Plato in the Phaedrus talks about a charioteer driving two horses. A good white horse. one of reason and another one, a dark one of passion. We're going to move in some direction, but to live a conscious life it's our duty to give the reins to the white horse of reason. The whole point of education is to make a rational person ever more rational. I think this is what philosophy class is for. It teaches the best things ever said and thought by the human race, and by doing so gives the grist for thought to deliberate on life. Socrates says the examined life isn't worth living, well, philosophy and literature, science, psychology gives the very means to examine life. The emotions play a bigger role than what I've just mentioned but I'd love to talk about that at another time.

Just my thoughts at the moment.

What is the soul?

[Sometimes psychotic]

Originally Posted by 0dysseus

What is the soul?

Sadly my first thought was that it's just a delusion but one that's allowed by both our minds and society...

[neil w]

i think you mean socrates said the *unexamined* life...