Morals, values and the like

This explains why feeling invisible and useless hurts so much.

This whole thread is all good stuff. Thanks for posting it!

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Rapunzel said:


This explains why feeling invisible and useless hurts so much.

This whole thread is all good stuff. Thanks for posting it!



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Fuzzybear said:
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Rapunzel said:


This explains why feeling invisible and useless hurts so much.

This whole thread is all good stuff. Thanks for posting it!



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May I remind those who disagree with anything quoted, that I am copying (with permission gg) from drclay's FREE online book, as noted in the links. It's pretty good stuff, imo.

Sky,
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one The following replies will detail why.

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Moral development teachers often say that becoming moral requires enough emotional development to feel guilty when we do wrong, enough social development to accept our responsibility for behaving in agreed upon ways towards our group, and enough cognitive development to be able to place ourselves in another person's shoes.

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Okay, I can see this and agree with it.

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But just because you develop some of these qualities, it doesn't guarantee that you will develop a wise and effective philosophy of life.

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Who determines what a "wise and effective philosophy of life" is?

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Are we Americans becoming more moral? Perhaps in some ways.

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Perhaps in some ways? Thanks for your opinion, Dr. Clay.

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For the first 80 years of this century, US citizens have gradually paid more taxes (that is doing good!) but more recently political conservatives have been encouraging us to hate taxes.

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Paying more taxes is doing good? That is one way to become more moral? The Dr. is kidding, right?

"But more recently political conservatives have been encouraging us to hate taxes?" Are they bad because they have a different opinion? "Encouraging us to hate taxes?" Come on. I can decide issues for myself.

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In addition, there is a lot of evidence we are backsliding morally e.g. a few years ago 9 out of 10 defense contractors were under criminal investigation.

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So, 9 out of 10 defense contractors were under criminal investigation? Okay, what happened? Isn't it immoral to accuse someone of a crime before they have their day in court? So, we can throw this so-called "evidence" out that is trying to support the opinion of Dr. Clay that there is a lot of evidence we are backsliding morally. As for the SS numbers for the dependents, okay. That may be true. But it doesn't prove this opinion. It proves just what the sentence says.

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A nation-wide survey by Ralph Wexler of the Institute of Ethics indicates that 1/3 of high schoolers and 1/6 of college students admit stealing something in the last year.

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Thanks Ralph for this one survey. Isn't it moral to tell the truth? What did they steal? What were the reasons? Many throw out numbers to prove points. I ask that the survey look for motives behind the behaviors, and more.

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Over 1/3 said they would lie on their resume to get a job.

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OMG, the world is coming to an end! Lie on a resume? Like add a year to their experience, say they've taken a class when they haven't? They should be jailed. I would like to know how many of those that lied on their resume actually are excellent workers? Okay, it's BAD to lie. I rarely lie myself due to past issues. But let's not overeggagerate issues.

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Over 1/2 of college students admit cheating in some way, over 60% say they would cheat on an important test. Other surveys show that 8 out of 10 high school students admit cheating.

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I don't condone cheating as a general rule, but there is a reason for all behavior, as I've stated. Again, they were honest.

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30%-50% think goofing off at work is okay

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My students love it when I goof off and I do it often. Just because one is using humor does not mean that one is not completing an objective.

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1 in 6 use drugs on the job

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Oh, this is immoral? In some cases, absolutely! How many of these people actually need psychological counseling instead of being labeled 'immoral'.?

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[Furthermore, Wexler says only 2% of students get caught cheating because teachers don't watch carefully; therefore, maybe crime does pay /quote]

Oh, Wexler is my favorite. Teachers don't watch carefully. Has Wexler been in the classrooms? How does he know this for sure? Because only 2% get caught cheating? What an ***. That's all I can say about that.

So, in conclusion, I see this ebook as being written in black and white. You can't support opinions with surveys without truly getting to the root of the problem. It is easy to say that others are immoral, but much more difficult to look beyond their behaviors to the motives and intentions. Thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion.

I agree with Soli. This is the sort of thing that critical thinking is absolutely CRUCIAL for. Biological imperatives, social norms and brain chemistry are all factors that are variable across individuals and can be major factors in what defines and structures morality.

Having a list of "needs" - or any other defined measure of morality - is somewhat problematic, anyway, in my view, because it seems somewhat tautological: These are the things you need to be satisfied, and being satisfied is defined as having these things.

Just my 4 cents. (Inflation)

One can always pick things apart, and that is true here too. I think speaking in generalities at times is perfectly acceptable, especially when dealing with a book that is already nearly 1800 pages long.

Of course your opinion counts. If you could explain your differing results from your surveys and research, I'm sure drclay will be interested in reading them when he returns.

TC!

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If you could explain your differing results from your surveys and research

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My point was that the surveys and research, at times, negated to include the intentions/reasons of the behavior. If you are stealing just because you feel like it, it is one thing. If you are stealing food because you are hungry, it is another. If you are cheating because you just didn't feel like studying, it is one thing, if you are cheating because your parent are pressuring you to make one hundred percent A's, that's another.

Ok. I hear you. IDK what all is entailed in these particular studies. I think assuming such elements are not included would be as presumptious. Good science and research, to be touted as such, generally do make allowances for such deviations, don't you agree?

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IDK what all is entailed in these particular studies.

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This is my point.

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Good science and research, to be touted as such, generally do make allowances for such deviations, don't you agree?

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"Good science and research" according to whom? It's not a matter of me agreeing or not, it's a matter of did they make allowances for this data or not? That is the question.

You will need to wait until the author returns to discuss your concerns with his book. Listing them here is adequate. Thanks!

When is Dr. Clay expected to return? This note is to him:

Dr. Clay,
I've just read some of your other comments in another thread and think they are right on the mark. I didn't mean my remarks to be rude and apologize if they were. However, I honestly don't understand the issues in which I've stated. (Of course, I'm sure you noticed that the cheating issue really triggered me).

I teach special education 2nd graders. I have taught in low income schools and can see parents struggling to make ends meet. I have seen others judge these parents, saying they have no morals or values because they don't make sure their kids do their homework and they sometimes don't come in for conferences, etc. I have found, though, that most of these parents Do care, they just are living minute to minute. I don't think many people who haven't had experience with poverty consider this. I wish that these people had the same start in life as those in the middle income bracket. Many of their behaviors are learned and passed on from generation to generation. What's the solution? I'm not sure, but these people need help in most arenas of their lives. For one, the mental health field does not even begin to be powerful or knowledgeable enough to help. Thank you for listening to my ramblings. There are so many problems to solve.

I think you are on an important topic and making thoughtful comments...I like the wise sayings.

Sorry I haven't added much to the discussion. I've been bogged down with chemotherapy. I'm feeling better, especially at my computer.

Thanks for all the well-wishes.

Clay

This is a nice discussion. However, it seems to me that personal values (beliefs about what beliefs are good and fair) have a complex relationship with the laws we encourage to be developed.

Laws are sometimes passed so that our conscious is no longer bothered by our beliefs that the average tax payer is not giving enough to a neighbor in deep trouble.

Clay

Dr. Clay,
I'm so sorry you are having to go through chemotherapy. My mother has gone through this with amazing results, and one of my best friends is getting ready for 9 months of treatments.

I wish you well and positive thoughts.! It is amazing what the medical community can do now!

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However, it seems to me that personal values (beliefs about what beliefs are good and fair) have a complex relationship with the laws we encourage to be developed

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True.

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Laws are sometimes passed so that our conscious is no longer bothered by our beliefs that the average tax payer is not giving enough to a neighbor in deep trouble.

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I think laws are passed that bypass people in need. These are the people of which I was speaking. I think these people can be helped in many ways on top of social systems. This is a good place to start teaching the illiterate. In my opinion, help should be given to these children at very early ages (even before the age they can enroll in Head Start), right after they are born if possible. This is the time to read to them and give them the sensory input needed as a base for future reading skills. I know this will not happen in my lifetime, but I think this is a must to the goal of eradicating illiteracy.

Oh, I read that as "laws are passed ( so that society can take care of those we won't individually care for) so that our conscious is no longer bothered by our beliefs ... "

I do agree that parents need more help to teach and guide their own children and that the government and society should not be expected to take their children from the time they are potty trained, just so they can become a valued member of society.

Sky,
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I do agree that parents need more help to teach and guide their own children and that the government and society should not be expected to take their children from the time they are potty trained, just so they can become a valued member of society.

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I agree that the government SHOULD not have to or be expected to raise children. Unfortunately, I'm at a loss as to any other way to do this. While one goal would be to become a valued member of society, my main goal would be to help these kids become whole. No one deserves to live life fragmented or due to no fault of their own. If this happened, the moral issues of the whole nation would improve. I don't have the answers here, but I wish I did. Working with this population is heart breaking.

My thoughts: Families need to raise children. We need to teach parents how to create families and not just children. It all begins in the home. IMO as we continually decide that parents can't do this "correctly" and take more and more of it away from them (requiring the children to be removed from the home for schooling at tender ages) then they will learn less and less and less. This appears, to me, to be what has happened.

This is a slippery slope, the government deciding it can do a better job than the one's who rightfully own it. I'm not a socialist. The government cannot do a better job, ever, if the parents will do it. It is a moral issue, not a political one, this issue of who should raise the children.
NOTE: This paragraph may contain triggering references.
I will go out a bit farther on this limb and say that this is why God gave us families. Man, woman, children. The head of the house to be the one responsible to make sure his household follows the set of parameters that God set forth. Spirituality is a big thing in a human's life. It also allows for supernatural guidance, and, regardless of the system one adheres to, gives direction on how to grow a family with love. Once the family is broken down, the main foundational platform for good citizens, moral, responsible people, and proliferation of the society is lost. Communists knew what they were doing, grab the child at a young age and they will learn and even if they stray, they will return to them. That's the way it works: and conversely also, keep the child home for those tender years, and the child will always have that as the foundation for life, and will hold it in high regard, and work to keep it secure as they grow up. If we remove the child from the security of home, and place him into a setting that is sterile and cold without understanding and allowance for individuality, learning with love and safety of home and parent, then we have no leg to stand on when we complain how our children have grown up cold, sterile and uncaring for his fellowman. THAT is how the mass killings and selfishness of robbers and rapists run rampant in any country. It all begins by removing them from a nucleus of home before the basic precepts of love, honor, respect and loyalty of family are ingrained.

I'll search for drclay's book evidence on this subject and post it when I can... anyone else is welcome to do the same.

Here's one link, on a chapter about the family, in the meantime:

http://www.psychologicalselfhelp.org/Chapter9.pdf It's page 835 btw.

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I think laws are passed that bypass people in need. These are the people of which I was speaking. I think these people can be helped in many ways on top of social systems. This is a good place to start teaching the illiterate. In my opinion, help should be given to these children at very early ages (even before the age they can enroll in Head Start), right after they are born if possible. This is the time to read to them and give them the sensory input needed as a base for future reading skills. I know this will not happen in my lifetime, but I think this is a must to the goal of eradicating illiteracy.

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I totally agree that nurturing the love of reading is so important for young children. It is so important for parents to introduce reading within the home, to model it by reading themselves, and by reading to children often if not every day. Sometimes, however, children struggle with reading even when reading is an active part of home life - I'm speaking of learning disabilities specifically reading delays. Not all reading delays are a result of poor enrichment within the home. Just imagine a dyslexic child's struggle - especially if there isn't any reading encouraged within the home.

Currently, many public libraries offer programs targeted to young children (toddlers &amp; preschool kids) that families can take advantage of. These programs are supported by tax dollars, and other public monies.

I think that it is important that society continue to support the public libraries and their programming. ditto for our public school districts. I feel that we as a society have a moral obligation to collectively reach out to all our children and offer supportive learning environments filled with enriching experiences. I see such public entites as an extension or an "in addition" to the support and warmth found within every child's home - not as a replacement of parental guidance but as an enriching addition.

Our society values reading. There are many ways to encourage and support reading. The public library near me does a fantastic job with programming for young children. I always support our library in whatever way that I can at the time because I value the services offered to everyone regardless of their financial situation.

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drclay said:
Laws are sometimes passed so that our conscious is no longer bothered by our beliefs that the average tax payer is not giving enough to a neighbor in deep trouble.

Clay

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Do you mean like when a neighbor(s) have lost employment and are struggling to make ends meet... we look to the federal government to extend unemployment services rather then us neighbors individually stop by and drop off a bag of groceries once in a while ??