Difference between abuse and discipline? (Long, and potential trigger)

Are there any reliable illustrations of the difference between discipline and abuse? If you ask my mother, she'll say I was "sometimes spanked" as a child.

Spanked? My grandfather spanked me once. I was six years old, and I had deliberately disobeyed him. He clearly warned me, I didn't believe him, and he proved it. What I got was exactly two mild open-handed swats on my fully-clothed butt, and I didn't even cry. Later when he told my grandmother he'd done it, she responded with horror, "I hope you didn't spank my poor little lamb!" And there I was, a mere child, reassuring her, "It's OK, Mammaw. I had it coming." It never happened again. It didn't have to.

Without debating spanking itself I still say, in that particular instance, I definitely had *something* coming. My grandfather was not in the wrong. What really sticks out in my mind is that heavy sigh, and the shake of his head. No anger, just sadness. He didn't want to do it.

Some time later, age seven, I blatantly disrespected an aunt, and she made me sit in a corner while she explained to me sternly but calmly that my behavior was not acceptable. This scene from my memory is almost cute, when I consider that my aunt was mentally retarded and functioned on about the level of an eight-or-nine-year-old herself. Yet she showed far better handling of a discipline situation than a lot of the "normally" functioning adults in my life. It puts a sad smile on my face to think of it. Sad, because my aunt passed away about a month ago, and I miss her terribly. Smile, because I'm just so glad to have known her, and it's a fond memory to think that she, of all people, showed such wisdom in dealing with a child's misbehavior.

So, it's not that I am against discipline. Any time there is a debate about corporal punishment, somebody is going to say, "Well, you've got to have discipline!" Of course!

But I define "discipline" as "teaching right from wrong," as my aunt and grandfather both did. As for "spanking," if it must be done, my grandfather's method was a shining example. Not the garbage other adults in my life called "spanking" when they did it. I got belts, switches, wooden spoons, hair brushes, and fly swatters, sometimes on the clothed butt, sometimes on the bare butt, and sometimes on other body parts.

Many people nowadays will separate "discipline" from "child abuse" by saying, "if it leaves marks, it's child abuse." Well, my brother told a lie once, and the marks that clipboard left on his face had the neighbor children gasping, "What happened to YOU?" Yet my mother insisted it wasn't child abuse, it was merely "teaching him not to lie." (A lesson clearly undone, when my mother wanted to get that same brother, age 13, into the state fair at the 12-year-old price.)

Most such punishment was done in a spirit of anger, not a spirit of education. The "lesson" was not so much, "this is how you should behave," but more like "I can hurt you if I want to." Sometimes I didn't even know what I'd done wrong, whereas my grandfather and my aunt had made my infraction clear. And sometimes I hadn't actually done anything "wrong" but simply made a mistake, had a mishap, or didn't understand something. I shudder, literally, to recall how many times I've been slapped in the face and told, "Now, THINK!" Hmm, could I maybe have been too *frightened* to think in such an atmosphere?

A child has to have limits, and to know the rules. I agree with this. But in our house, what were the most important rules? Number one, it seemed, was "act as if you don't exist." There was a strong advocacy of "children are meant to be seen and not heard," to the point that we were most praised, most considered "good," when we said nothing, did nothing, and needed nothing. Any behavior that drew attention to our existence was subject to disapproval and punishment. I still think the main reason for our unreasonably early bedtime wasn't to meet our needs for rest, but to have us out of the way, put up on a shelf like toys the adults were finished playing with for the day.

Number two was "don't be yourself." Any attempt to have an opinion, to ask a question, to initiate a discussion, or to voice disagreement was called "talking back," and no punishment was too severe for that crime. Disrespect would NOT be tolerated, as my aunt showed too, but the parental figures defined disrespect more broadly, I suppose. One brother was sent to bed early merely for joking, "please pass the purples" at the supper table where collard greens had been served. And when the other brother thought such a punishment was ridiculous, he was sent to bed early as well, for the grievous sin of voicing that thought. My father was the perpetrator of this one; the main lesson he liked to teach was "I'm in charge, and I do what I want." Respect was a big issue at our house. Our parents demanded it. Although I question their methods for enforcing it, I do agree that parents should insist on respect. But then why, when I wanted it myself, was I inevitably told it had to be earned, not demanded? I still don't get that one.

If "discipline" means "to teach right from wrong," then the "discipline" used by my mother, my father, and my various step-fathers (a total of seven husbands, plus the live-in boyfriends between marriages) failed in that regard. The lessons learned were anything but helpful in my later life, where I now find myself unable to make many decisions for myself. I still catch myself waiting to be told what to do, and I still either blindly do what I'm told, or openly rebel even when that's not what's best for me. I am still paralyzed by fear, still afraid to so much as disagree with my mother, and still unsure what my own personal tastes and preferences are. By contrast, the "discipline" imparted by my aunt and my grandfather taught me proper behavior, and that I would still be loved even if my behavior was not accepted. They were not on a power trip; they were merely trying to make a better person out of me.

What is the difference between discipline and child abuse? I think I just answered my own question.

I like this, your opinions. I have always been against spanking for exactly this reason. In the right hands, it is what it was started for: a means of punishment meant to cause embarrassment, not pain...but in the hands of those who don't know how to use it, who just want to display their "power"? Bad combination. I had pretty much the same experiences as you, in terms of this barbaric "punishment". I was screamed at, spanked, hit, spanked with a belt, etc. for reasons I often didn't understand. The only thing I learned from that is to walk on eggshells around my father's explosive temper, agree with everything my mother says (though she's often wrong), and get out of the house as much as possible.

I started babysitting at the age of 11, and stopped around 16 (for emotional reasons). I was considered one of the best babysitters by all of the people I worked for (not exaggerating). In my opinion, one of the things that made me "better" than other babysitters is that I NEVER so much as raised my voice. Though I see how people raised with belts and yelling can turn out to be too soft on their children to avoid being like their parents, that wasn't me. I found the perfect balance. I could sit a child down, be face-to-face with them (not towering over them to scare them), speaking just above a whisper, only saying what is true (not resorting to name-calling, etc.), and the child would be in sorrowful tears by the time I finished. It worked a LOT better than yelling or spanking would have, because the child knew exactly what he/she did wrong, and did his/her best not to do it again; not for fear of punishment, but to avoid disappointing me again.



Okay, off my soapbox now.

Thank you both for sharing.

Wow ! what a thoughtful analysis.
For me abuse is violence that can't be ....escaped or predicted. And that doesn't teach anything. And that usually only happens b/c the parent loses their temper, and is independent of what the child did.
Swatting with a hand is not the same...i'll never be a swatter... But things like "switches" (that is what we call them down south. You had to go out to the tree and break off a stick when you were in trouble for your whipping. If you got one too small, bad for you b/c then THEY would get one three times as thick), the wire end of a flyswatter....
And especially, especially, the belt. The belt, the buckle, the leather. If it's ever brought out, that is abuse.

A few nights ago, my husband was getting undressed for bed. Just for a split second, out of sheer muscle reflex, I cringed when I heard the zzzzzzip of the leather belt clearing the loops.

He too was an abused child, and he understood perfectly.

I don't think that saying that abuse leaves a mark is totally correct either. My mother-in-law is one of those people that you can just grab her wrist with a normal amount of pressure and the next day she will have bruises in the shape of your hand. Whereas I can run headlong into something and not have a bruise the next day. Part of that is just different people's bodies, not to mention that most physical abuse is accompanied by emotional abuse which doesn't hurt physically but can leave someone emotionally scarred for a lifetime.

Good point.

If you look up disapline in the dictionary it says - to learn. I think if you disapline someone, what is learned tells if it was abuse or not.

I am coming to know that putting fear into a person does not necessarily teach a lesson or promote good behavior/respect.

Your aunt and grandfather were much better at it, I think than some others.

Every child makes mistakes, fumbles, has mishaps and that does NOT deserve punishment---esp. by torture!

Just my own thoughts.

Billi

I believe that if a parent disrespects their children, they should not expect respect in return. The parent MuST first respect a child. It is not only the right thing to do, but the parent is the one being looked up to, the child learns from the adults' behaviors. So if the parent wants to teach the child to respect him/her, they MUST show how to respect. What we did as physically abused children was not exactly respect our abusive parents/caretakers. We FEARED them, and most of us still do. I know that I don't respect my father at all, but since I am afraid of him, I am afraid to speak for myself toward him.

What is the difference between abuse and discipline? Well, I would consider discipline to be teaching my son how to deal with his emotions in the best possible way, to teach him manners, to teach him how to ask for what he wants and needs without wining or throwing a fit, to teach him how to clean up after himself, to teach him to be his own responsible person, to teach him how to take care of himself, to teach him how to express himself. These things would make him a better person and grow into a healthy functioning adult. "Punishment" should be used sparingly when it is truly deserved and it should be time outs and taking away priviledges. And we should then teach our children why what they did was wrong and what they should do instead. This is what our law enforcement does in the United States. Time outs may be compared to jail time, rehab, or mental hospitals. Taking away priviledges is compared to suspending driver's licences.

I do believe that corporal punishment is a form of abuse. Since I was told that I was being disciplined, but was actually being abused, and have never in my life seen "corporal punishment" to work the people say it should or not cause problems with it's victims, I don't believe in it. If even corporal punishment is used the "right way" and it does not hurt the child physically and the child actually did something wrong, not just made a mistake or annoyed the caretaker, it does hurt them emotionally, since it is used to humilate, to teach the child that he/she is wrong. The child is not bad, the behavior is, that is what should be corrected. In this way, I believe that corporal punishment, if not extreme enough to be considered phhsical abuse it is still emotional abuse (if you don't notice, that is an oxymoron in itself, since corporal means physical).

I think that corporal punishment may just be a way for the victims to tell themselves that the abuse wasn't that bad and they deserved it and their parents raised them the right and best way they could. It's also an excuse for the perp to use to lie to themselves that they're doing the right thing for their child. How is corporal punishment discipline, when it is only teaching the children that violence is a way to solve problems?

I've seen so many people being abused or abusing children. And most of the victims believe that they deserved it, because they were bad. And so many adults that use discipline as an excuse, I just don't see where the true "corporal punishment" is.

Anyway we are not allowed to hit adults to punish them, we would be arrested for assault ( however f.y.i. spousal corporal punishment used to be commonly accepted), it's even against the law for correctional officers to physically punish inmates. So WHY is it still legal in so many countries to use corporal punishment on children, the most defenceless human beings, the one's who don't have the right to speak up for themselves (to vote), our future? We outlawed it in schools and daycares, because we don't want other people spanking our kids, but it's okay if we did it ourselves to our own kids? It can make child abuse legal on the ones who do not bruise easily, since marks are considered a piece of evidence for child abuse and may be the only evidence other than someone else's word.

Sorry I went off into a rant/debate thing about the subject. This website will tell you the myths about spanking: http://www.stophitting.com/index.php?page=factsnfiction
And on this page it tells you why spanking is harmful: http://www.stophitting.com/index.php?page=whyspank
I did a final report for college about corporal punishment.

i struggle with the fact that my family has no respect for childern. I was told to do as i was told-no questions were allowed. Once i delbierly disobeyed my grandma and she hit me with a belt. Once i lied to my dad and he hit me and said "don't you lie to me!" I cheated on a test and my dad flew into a rage. I have walked on eggshells around my dad because you never knew when he would explode. I agree that parents should respect there childern. and teach them right from wrong. disagreeing is not the same as "being disrecfull" I learned from my family that i was not important enough to take seroulsly. I ethier blindly obey or rebel. I have a T helping with the process of getting this off my back

I think the term "punishment" has to get into there somewhere. In my experience, punishment is what often goes over the line into abuse. If one is angry when disciplining, the intensity can go up too high and the ability to teach/discipline with a clear head go down.