[shakespeare47]

I'm 48, my parents are about 70.
I remember so many terrible times. Him getting drunk and beating my mom.
Him using gaslighting on my mother. Him trying to convince us that he was trying to do the right thing, but my mom was mentally ill (the irony is I think he later drove her to mental illness, or at least helped her to get there).

There were times when I confronted him, and he literally said "you need to forgive me!". And there were times when he's admitted "I hurt your mom" (the way he said it suggested he might have meant he accidentally gave her a paper cut).

My mother isn't perfect either. She took out a lot of her frustrations on me. My earliest memory is being locked outside our apartment when I was about 4 or 5. My second memory is her telling me "if you stick your thumb out, maybe those road construction workers will take you away". My third memory is the school nurse looking at the bruises she gave me when I was in kindergarten.

My mother home schooled my younger brothers and sisters and as punishment, once hit my sister in the mouth with a hairbrush, breaking her tooth.
The same sister told me that when she was in her teenage years, my dad yelled at her and called her a "*****" when he was upset with her.
My dad read my other sister's diary, and then hit her in the face, because he realized that she was having sex.

I remember the time my dad gave my mom a black eye, and then explained it happened because he was really angry at her because of something she said. So, I was left thinking "okay, I guess he's trying to tell us it's okay to hit someone, as long as you're really angry with them."

People like my dad. They see him as kind of a nervous, funny guy.

I'm trying to decide if and how to get them out of my life. I actually went about 5 months without seeing them, and then they called me to see if they could visit. It went pretty well while they were there, but just being around them upsets me, because it brings up so many bad memories. I ruminated about a lot of things I mentioned above after they left.

My sister with the broken tooth is prone to minimizing things, and says "oh, they weren't that bad. Everyone has issues!". My mom has said the same thing in the past about my dad.

Please help me think about this.

[doyoutrustme]

That's a pretty black and white approach. I only say that because your parents may need elder care assistance and you might need to help them sort that out.

Maybe even that won't be your problem since your sister is minimizing it, she can deal with it.

I would say, keep your distance, worry about yourself. If your sister needs help with them, then tell her she should let you know.

[shakespeare47]

Originally Posted by doyoutrustme

That's a pretty black and white approach. I only say that because your parents may need elder care assistance and you might need to help them sort that out.

Maybe even that won't be your problem since your sister is minimizing it, she can deal with it.

I would say, keep your distance, worry about yourself. If your sister needs help with them, then tell her she should let you know.

I guess I'm not sure what you're saying. It sounds like you're concerned about my parent's well-being, but you suggest I shouldn't worry about it too much, because maybe my other siblings will be able to handle it. Is that it?

[doyoutrustme]

Yeah. I guess I was thinking "out loud."

At the end of the day, I don't think you owe them anything.

[shakespeare47]

Originally Posted by doyoutrustme

Yeah. I guess I was thinking "out loud."

At the end of the day, I don't think you owe them anything.

But your comments about black and white thinking could have some merit. I don't see them all that often. I have offered to help them in the past, and nothing came of it. But then I feel like an idiot because I'm just asking for more abuse by even being around them.

It's frustrating for me, because I do go back and forth on the issue. I know both of them had less-than-perfect childhoods that influenced them. But, I do have my own well-being to consider.

[marmaduke]

Put yourself first. You deserve some peace.

[shakespeare47]

It's really been frustrating also, in that in the past, I've tried to talk to my dad about how angry I am at the things he did, and he basically turns it around and tries to make it about me and suggests I have a problem with resentment. How messed up is that? He is actually pretty good about twisting things around so that in his mind, he's a good guy, and other people have a problem with him for some strange reason.

It's a funny subject in that I don't want to be resentful, and yet, I want some kind of acknowledgment that what he did was wrong, and that it's wrong to demand that others forgive you and suggest you think about your own resentment when confronted. I doubt I'll ever get it from him. So, for my peace of mind, it is helpful to stay away.

I don't wish them ill, I think I understand a little about why they did the things they did, and yet, I see no reason to be around them.

U need to take care of yourself first. Do your parents have a will that denotes who of the siblings makes medical decisions? If they don't, at 70 they should. That will releave u of some of the worry. I couldn't tell if u live nearby but u could set up a time to call. For example, the 1st Monday of the month @ 4 pm. Then u know when u will have contact & cut back on unexpected visits.

[shakespeare47]

I listened to this podcast today about forgiveness. http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/b/4/b/b4ba...7a6551077a02ec
It's only about 17 minutes long, if anyone else would like to listen.

She suggests that forgiveness is something to be put in the place of blame. She doesn't discount blame and holding people accountable for what they've done, but suggests that forgiveness can be a moral thing to do. She even mentions that we can think we've forgiven somebody, only to have old feelings of blame come up again. And forgiveness is a healthy thing for a victim to do.

Anyway. I think I can forgive them, in that I can get to a place where I don't blame them anymore. But, I still wonder about the possibility for more abuse, so I'd like to avoid them.

She also suggests that you can be mentally healthy without forgiving people. But, it requires that we let go of resentment and anger, because they are harmful.

[shakespeare47]

Originally Posted by cavaliers

U need to take care of yourself first. Do your parents have a will that denotes who of the siblings makes medical decisions? If they don't, at 70 they should. That will releave u of some of the worry. I couldn't tell if u live nearby but u could set up a time to call. For example, the 1st Monday of the month @ 4 pm. Then u know when u will have contact & cut back on unexpected visits.

I'll have to ask them about who will make medical decisions. My sister who lives close by is a nurse, so she seems like an obvious choice.

My parents did call me first to ask if it was okay to visit. So, it's not like they just showed up unannounced. I'm thankful for that.

[Open Eyes]

I am so sorry you grew up with such dysfunctional parents. They clearly were showing the only way they knew how to solve problems is through hitting others, which ofcourse is wrong. The other thing they were clearly doing is blaming everyone else instead of being responsible. What they were showing you is what they knew, what they themselves learned to be acceptable, pretty much what they learned from their parents. Your mother was a codependent and has probably suffered from some kind of MI for a very long time.

Alcoholics/addicts gaslight, it's part of that disease.

Is your father still drinking?

[shakespeare47]

My dad doesn't drink, but does show some compulsions and probably has fairly significant ADHD.

I've analyzed my memories of my mother at some length, and I suspect that although she did grow up with an obviously mentally ill mother, my mom didn't really show any signs of mental illness until she was in her late 40's. Much after my dad hounded her mercilessly. I'm of the opinion that he drove her to it with his mental and physical abuse. But, as I mentioned, she took a lot of her frustrations out on me. She did apologize for some of her behavior towards me, so that is encouraging. But, my memories of my time with her (until I left for college) suggest she was functioning very well, even while my dad was trying to convince us kids that she had mental health issues.

It is painful to think about. He is quite skilled.
In our household if person B did anything person A might not like, it was a sure sign that person B had some kind of mental issue that person A would point out.
Some of my siblings are still quite skilled at this.

[Open Eyes]

I know, it "is" painful to think about ((shakesphere)), that is what many try to avoid and drink and escape from in unhealthy ways. A lot of men try to make up for "their loss" by finding something very strict and regimented to do and join the Army,Navy,Marines etc. or as your father did in that he chose a very strict religion. Your father did not know how to "love or show love" either, so he ended up verbally and at times physically abusing. He hit, yelled and verbally abused whenever he felt "his" boundaries were being threatened, and that is what he "imprinted" growing up.

Remember I posted that article about how men struggle and how there is an effort to help them based on the way they struggle via therapy? You could think about your father when you consider the different challenges listed. Also, if you think about different religions in that there "are" positives, but also think about how much of what is written is written by "men". If a man is not loved, nurtured and appreciated by other humans, who does he look up to?

You say that your father at least "called and asked" if he could visit you. So my guess is he has a sense/learned that he is going to "your domain" and that is "your territory". He did not invade you on your turf right? Sometimes, what one can look at is if your father "behaves and respects" on your territory, and then tends to disrespect in "his" territory, then part of your boundaries would be knowing that "his world is not good for you" and if he is going to see "you" then he must do this on 'your terms".

You are "not" a black sheep when you turn and face "truth", abusers are individuals that are so afraid of "truth" that they find all kinds of ways to "deny it". And you are right, they can get quite skilled at it too. It is a "weakness" in them, not a strength. Well, a lot of men struggle this way, always have too, so it is important to realize that when you enter "his" turf, there will be denial and dysfunction.

"Forgive them Father, fore they know not what they do". This doesn't mean "dysfunction is excusable".

[RedSun]

I agree that you don't owe them anything.
I don't believe e that any children owe to their parents, - no one asked to be born. Some children may feel that they want to help their parents, because their parents haven given the child love and care, and the child wants to show gratitude and return the love.

It sounds as if you didn't get much care from them. Put yourself first, as others have said. Your siblings may have to discount the abuse to keep themselves safe from the impact of acknowledging it, but you don't have to collude with their deception.

And, maybe it isn't black and white. Maybe you can see your parents if you want, when you want. I guess the important thing is that you see them because you really want to, not because you feel you should.

[unaluna]

It was me or them. I should have broken away much much sooner. Like when i was sixteen.

[Open Eyes]

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

It's really been frustrating also, in that in the past, I've tried to talk to my dad about how angry I am at the things he did, and he basically turns it around and tries to make it about me and suggests I have a problem with resentment. How messed up is that? He is actually pretty good about twisting things around so that in his mind, he's a good guy, and other people have a problem with him for some strange reason.

It's a funny subject in that I don't want to be resentful, and yet, I want some kind of acknowledgment that what he did was wrong, and that it's wrong to demand that others forgive you and suggest you think about your own resentment when confronted. I doubt I'll ever get it from him. So, for my peace of mind, it is helpful to stay away.

I don't wish them ill, I think I understand a little about why they did the things they did, and yet, I see no reason to be around them.

You deserve to be validated that what your father did was wrong. His pulling this "you have a problem with resentment" talk with you is his out and failure to be responsible for his wrongs.

That being said, unfortunately a lot of people do not know "how" to sit and listen and allow another person to "feel", they don't know how because no one did it with them. Often, men especially "run from doing that" because it makes them feel too vulnerable and uncomfortable. Also, this is where the verbal and even physical abuse comes from too. Your father may never be able to do this with you, I know that is sad and really would help you, it would actually calm down the ruminating a great deal too. Your father is using the term "resentment", that is what "he" feels and expresses when he is verbally abusive. It is not resentment, it is "hurt", there is a difference.

Isn't it so ironic that a man who is so "religious" would not understand "validating hurts"?

[shakespeare47]

Oh, yes. My dad is very knowledgeable about forgiveness and about how the Bible says we need to forgive him. He's made that very clear. It's sad in that he doesn't even recognize that in the stories he references, the offender acknowledges he has done something wrong, and actually humbly asks for forgiveness. The offender doesn't demand it.

I suppose that in an odd, backwards way, by demanding forgiveness, he is acknowledging that he did something wrong.

But, it feels like more abuse directed towards me. Like I'm being asked "What's wrong with you? Don't you realize you just need to forgive me?" It would be nice to have some acknowledgment of just how harmful some people's actions can be.

Can you imagine a car accident in which the offender just angrily demands that he be forgiven? There is no talk of responsibility or of the damage done, but rather demands made. "you must forgive me. that's the rule."

[Open Eyes]

Yes, you are right. However, this is also what Jesus was saying too, he was talking about how there are individuals that will "not know" and even deny him. He is talking about individuals like your father, who is denying "you". Jesus recognized others, loved them and inspired them to not only value themselves and be enlightened but to try to show this to others as well. However, he did know that their "fear" and lack would express itself becaused while they loved him for seeing "them and inspiring them" they would not have the capacity to do that for Jesus.

What you are experiencing with your father is exactly what Jesus said happens in human beings. Your father is all about being forgiven, yet he has not been able to give "you" what you need and deserve of him. Your father is forsaking you, because you remain "hurt".

Your father is "weak" shakesphere, he runs and hides and is fearful, but keep in mind that no one has come to your father and appologized for their wrongs either. Your father is showing that every time he is verbally abusive. All your father knows how to do is run to his religious belief so he can be forgiven and given permission to keep on trying. He is missing in his life what it actually feels like to have a person who has caused harm to admitt his wrongs in an effort to recognize that your father was "hurt".

We do not forgive the acts, they do cause pain and suffering. What we need to feel sorry for is "the ignorance" that takes place that is behind these acts that cause pain. It is very hard to do shakesphere, very hard, I struggle a great deal with that myself, many do, and it's sad.

I am not trying to tell you to believe in any religion in this post. I am instead sheding light on the message so many confuse and struggle with though.

Your father was able to recognize the fault of that individual that molested you, he could recognize that was wrong and that him and your mother should have helped you with that. Yet, it is much harder for your father to recognize his "own" wrongs to you that hurt you. That is a common challenge with human beings, they often struggle and "deny" others and validate their hurts. The catholic religion tried to address this with having "confessionals" in an effort to help individuals learn how to admit their wrong doings. One was supposed to learn how to 'confess" their sins in order to receive holy communion and be forgiven. It still did not "fix" how human beings have such a hard time admitting their wrong to those that have been hurt by those wrongs.

[shakespeare47]

@Open Eyes
What you say could be true, I admit. But, what passages do you have in mind when you make your claims? I can't think of any that make the point you're trying to make.

[Open Eyes]

Oh, I cannot present the exact passages, I am not one to sit and memorize them that way either. It has been a long time since I have read them too, however, I don't have to memorize like that, instead I have taken these messages "in" and thought about what I have experienced of others in my own life experiences.

Read about Jesus specifically and what he said to his deciples. He is not saying it exactly the way I am, I have come to understand his meaning without memorizing every verse. He told his deciples they would deny him, he told Peter that he would deny him three times. Surely you must know or remember this shakesphere. I have not been able to find my bible in a very long time tbh with you, I have looked several times for it too. I also used to have a simpler version that I read to my daughter, can't find that either, in boxes that never got unpacked the last time we moved.

Keep in mind though shakesphere, I did not belong to a strict religion like you did. I have knowledge that is accumulated from the Catholic High School I attended and the few years I attended in the Congregational Church I attended as a child until my father stopped going because he did not like the politics taking place or the way the Minister was interpreting the Bible to the congregation. I was not "brainwashed" in the way you have discribed as the Strict Fundamentalists practice.

I am so glad I did not experience religion that way were everything was so literal. I have friends that need to know every little detail word for word and they can be a bit "nuts" with it IMHO.

[shakespeare47]

It's one thing to say you believe Jesus wanted us to do something... it's quite another to provide passages that confirm that you are correct in your belief. If Jesus said what you think he said, then you should be able to find proof. (I'm not even sure what it is you think Jesus said.... so, you will need to tell me exactly what it is you think he said, and then provide proof).

Assuming that the people you are trying to convince care about such things in the first place.

If someone asks for forgiveness, that's one thing. To demand it? Hmm. I don't know about that one. Think about if someone were to murder and then demand the family forgive him, because, they say, that is what the Bible says they need to do. Does that sound right to you?
It sounds to me like a way to get out of having to accept responsibility for the fact that the person in question murdered someone.

[Open Eyes]

Yes, I know, you need to look it up and read it word for word, you are one to need that, I don't need to be that literal, I read it a long time ago, it was not important to me to memorize word for word, at one point I did, but I got so I did not "need" to have that anymore and actually I had to find simpler ways to help my daughter understand it, however, I also did get exposed to several different interpretations of these messages too.

I know enough to see how your father is interpreting in a convenient way for "him", and enough to know that is "not helping you".

If I could find my Bible I would gladly take time and look it up for you.

That being said, I did not vote for you to break off your relationship or make it work. I will not choose for others that way, it's really up to you. However, what I am interested in is understanding how you are hurt and validate "you" and help you to see how your father is in a way that no longer "hurts" you.

I can remember what Jesus said, I don't need to remember it word for word, it's more important I understand what he meant instead. Perhaps ask about this at this new UU group you have joined shakesphere, and see what is said.

[shakespeare47]

If you think I should do something based on something you think you remember reading in the Bible., then the least you should do is tell me what it is you think I should do and what passages in the Bible lead you to that conclusion.

[unaluna]

I believe the commandment is to honor your father and mother. Not love, forgive, or even obey. Honor. What does to honor mean? I think you honor someone in a way THEY can understand. You dont give them a Ferrari if they cant drive a stick. So no, to honor does not mean to let them walk all over you. To honor them, you should stand up next to them. Ive been thinking about this a lot!

[Open Eyes]

Why Did Jesus Ask Three Times if Peter Loved Him? - Disciples

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...13&version=ESV

http://www.gotquestions.org/Peters-denial.html

"Peter’s denial was based partially on weakness, the weakness born of human frailty." quoted from last article

Yes, but Peter did appologize and he was forgiven. Your father needs to appoligize to you, not just expect your forgiveness. He is failing to do that with you, it is not giving you "peace" with your hurt. That being said, what I have also said to you is "this is your father's weakness".

You are misunderstanding me shakesphere. What I was trying to say to you is how I read different parts of the Bible and learned about the "meanings" of what I had read. Keep in mind that I did not have the problem of a cult like atmosphere where there was a necessity to know every verse and "follow" an intpretation like "you experienced".

I think the reason why you need to "see evidence" as you are discribing is due to how your father manipulated and the magnitude of the structured interpretation you had endured growing up. As you talk about this challenge, I can understand your frustration.

Structure is good, but too much structure is not so good as it doesn't allow for an individual to function without having to be told what to do or "follow the book" so to speak. I don't have to have the "word for word", I have adapted it into myself and set out on my own with my own abilities and creativities. I used to think it was bad that I grew up that way, now I realize it was not so bad because I don't have the issues that others have shared with having too much structure. I have friends that live their lives thinking the rapture is on us, well, that is living in constant fear and IMHO a bit of craziness.