sounds good to me........relationships

[PlanningtoLive]

relationships.......keep it separate.

wow. i guess i'm surprised is all. i understand about need for twinship... but i guess i never really thought that another person would need to have (what is considered to be) similar enough life circumstances (as opposed to ability to empathise with experience) in order to meet ones twinship need.

surprised as all...

and i wonder how much it helps...
and how much it harms...

how much the 'insider' and 'outsider' mentality helps those on the inside at the expense of those on the outside... and how much the people on the inside justify their excluding others by assuming the outsiders are out to get them anyway.

(can anyone think of examples of this in history)

i see it over and over and over
but maybe i'm primed to look...

[biiv]

alex I see what you mean all over too. and I think I am primed to look too. them and us. outsider and insider. human and non human. and i completely agree with you that this is objectively a very very catastrophic conception.
but then..
theres the difference between being objective and being emotional
and we need to find a balance somehow.
because you cant have one without the other.
so as far as i can see there are a lot of people (myself included) who have a sense of a more powerful emotional connection when they are talking to someone that they know has experienced the same experiences as them. every time i get that feeling i try to analyse it and see if i can extrapolate from that what the immediate negative effects may be and sometimes i really cant see the harm.
for example with the LGBT (etc) thing i understand that you dont have the same emotional experience when you talk to someone who has had the same exact experience but i genuinely feel safer talking to people that i know have gone through the same sexuality struggles as me and the same prejudgments, exclusions, moral difficulties, guilt etc etc than i do talking about those experiences with people who can say that they have felt the same feelings in different circumstances but since feelings are so difficult to pin down neither of us can be sure they actually are the same or if we are just using similar language to describe different sensations. when the factual experiences are the same the danger of that is halved at least.
soooooo. what was the point of this message... lol. um it was that while you cant understand that and i think actually thats a great thing to have reached a state where gender/orientation etc genuinely doesnt matter, not everyone has reached that state yet (no matter how hard some of us try!) so in the mean time there are many people who draw comfort from sharing similar factual experiences.
i hope this makes sense!
btw i would love to reply to your other messages in the psychotherapy forum but i am way too messed up right now to do that. which doesnt mean im not reading raptly!
so thank you and i hope i havent insulted because i am really just replying to your theory and not to you personally.
personally i think you rock.
tc
biiv

[biiv]

ps if i might just add. for me at least, theres a wealth of factual experience i have as a lesbian that i cant explain on an emotional level because i suck at emotions but that i would nonetheless find solace in talking to someone who shared those factual experiences.
and i gather the same goes for people who are bi-racial.

[__zh]

we agree but are confused as to why THESE forums are up for disucssion as we aren't bipolar but can post there to learn or support, we aren't ADHD but can post there to support, etc.

we tolerate posts in a forum where ppl post who think they're being supportive only to create further triggers for us. is that their problem? is it mine? is it a problem of the community?

we see no reason to bar anyone from posting in any forum as the growth of PC over the years has shown the ability of the community to adjust as necessary to changes. this is yet another change in the scheme of PC life.

onward.....

[Zen888]

How about this.....

If you are lesbian, bisexual, transgender, biracial....let ppl know in this thread (or by another means) and PM each other.

[jlove973]

hey zen. i guess the difference is that...

i've posted in the schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders forum because i thought i could say something helpful / supportive even though i've never been dx'd with schizophrenia or a psychotic disorder.

i've posted in the eating disorders forum on similar grounds.

i get the impression that the male and female forums are different, however.

different in the sense that if you have female chromosomes / sexual organs / gender identity (not sure whether one or two or three are needed) then you aren't welcome to respond to posts on the male forum. so it seems to me that these two forums are restricted in a way that the other forums are not. i mean sure people are discussing that maybe guys should be allowed on the girls board. but one thread only or whatever. seems to entail that they are not welcome to respond to the other threads.

i guess that is what i'm having difficulty with.

[Rhapsody]

I guess it is just TRUE that times a woman wants another woman's POV and some times a man just wants another males POV..... and with out the interference from the other sex.

And... IMO that is OK and there is no rejection being placed on any one here, just a fact of LIFE to how people (male & female) are some times, and that too is OK with ME.

Just like when we were kids: MOMMY will only do when you are little and sick.... and while you do indeed LoVe DADDY with all your heart - it is still MOMMY that you need (want) when you need care from being sick.
... and to those that need DADDY over MOMMY when you are sick... that is OK too.

LoVe,
Rhapsody -

[1Dar]

why do we realy have to have seperate forums anyway? I think it is silly. If a man or woman wishes to comment on a post in one forum or the other...then they should, but perhaps state they are the opposite gender. Well I guess that is my humble opinio and i really didn't read every tread, but enough to realize that people are segregating for no good reason.

DAR

[Rhapsody]

IMO - I do not think these two THREADS were meant to desegregate any one, but rather to create a place that women come to and talk or receive advice / help from other women..... and the same for the Men's Forum.

I honestly DO NOT see the BIG FUSS over such a kind and considerate thing done for us.... and I personally feel that these two FORUMS will solve the problem of us having to add a P.S. that states..... Please Only Woman Reply (or) Please Only Men Reply.

Basically - if I was to post in the WOMEN FORUM then it would mean that I am seeking help, care and understanding from another female, and if I was to post in any other thread then I am seeking help from ALL that wish to reply.

Does this help in the understanding to why some of us think these two threads are a good ideal and that we are not trying to push any one aside...

LoVe,
Rhapsody -

[Rhapsody]

P.S.

and lets be honest...... some times a poster will state - Please Only (Males or Females) Reply and what do they get, but one or two replies from the opposite sex of whom they were seeking advice / help from.

.... that in and of its self can be quite aggravating, and now these two FORUM's will solve that PROBLEM.

LoVe,
Rhapsody -

- - - PeAcE OUT - - -

[(JD)]

I just hope you all don't get your hopes to high on this... remember it is a site with many disordered ppl. There will always be those who cannot differentiate forums and threads that they post coherently within and those they don't.

And there will be threads of inquiry, in all ways, that as usual will draw a wide variety of responses, whether exclusive of the target audience or not.

I just wish, like in a busy chat, each of us could ignore the posts that really don't apply to our own agenda on the thread (and hopefully that coincides with the subject line).

TC!

[biiv]

i just wanted to say i was just speaking about an LGBT or bi racial forum in the same terms as all the other forums and not as a forum where only bi racial or LGBT persons could post.

[Talulah]

(((Lmo))) thanks for those hugs!!

Not trying to whine or say I need only to talk to others of my circumstance. By all means I fight the equality on gender and stereotypes, by have to be honest that somewhere deep inside I am more drawn to, let's say Biiv......I'm not needing to find other lesbians, its just when I knwo there is one, I find a deeper sense of comfort, I say kinship, not twinship.

BTW Biiv, great posts...

Fayerod, keep fighitng the fight. I can sense you are very strong, wise and confident. I really value that and respect you for it!

>>>>>>>"how much the 'insider' and 'outsider' mentality helps those on the inside at the expense of those on the outside... and how much the people on the inside justify their excluding others by assuming the outsiders are out to get them anyway."<<<<<<<<<<<<

Yea, knowing the extent of how the "outsiders" feel could still benefit those insiders. Just want to say, for clarity of my interpretation, I don't assume all others are out to get me, just that some LGBT experiences are so very in the forefront these days and it 'feels' unique to me sometimes, I'm not ignorant to belive that all hetero persons don't "get" me or want to destroy me, but it's an issue they don't necessarily face day to day. In fact I've been very welcomed here by all! That is wonderful and will lead me to trust you with some of my issues, some anyway.

Some people face day to day issues they might like insight on from others who feel them day to day (ratial, ethnic. LGBT and so on)

Okay, so I'm supposed to be voting here and sorry for the long post, but I wanted to clear the air alex about that one thing you said, I don't want to give you (or anyone) the wrong impression.

I could go either way on the vote, I'm a rule follower so whatever decided, I'm supportive.

[Zen888]

Why doesn't someone ask Admin. to consider the various sexual orientation and racial forums that are being debated here?

[LMo]

we already are, btw...

hey.

it is okay people.

i've decided i won't be posting here.
or any other board where the understanding is that you have to be part of the 'in' group in order for your opinion to be welcome.

for the record you might want to be a little careful how you approach the racial issue...

but i guess 'race' is almost politically uncorrect in NZ instead we focus on 'ethnic identity' which is a lot like gender identity.

nobody has really answered my question with respect to whether this board is about

- female chromosomes
- female genitils
- gender identity

but whatever. can't be bothered with this anymore.

[DocJohn]

You know, I'm not one for creating rules for the sake of creating rules. I would think the name -- Women's focused support -- is pretty self-evident. Do I really have to dig down into specifics when we create a forum like this and say, "Sorry, you need to have these chromosomes and these components and this identity in order to post here"??

A man posting to a women's focused support forum is not appropriate, asking for womens' opinions about X, Y or Z. That's what the relationships forum is and has always been for, as the word "relationships" describes a lot more than romantic relationships (e.g., any friendship, social relationship, work relationship, etc.).

So the answer is no, this place is for women and women's issues first and foremost. I think that's about as clear as I need to be.

John

the million dollar question (that I was trying to get people thinking about) is:

what is a woman??????????????????

to repeat:

must our future always be determined by our bodies?????

thanks for the resounding 'YES!'

i decline to participate further on this board.

also...

i'm really not just trying to be difficult.

one of my alters (or part of me) has a male gender identity.
a comprimise for me is 'the ideal of androgyny'.
seems that that part can't post to the male board (because chromosomes are lacking and yes, he (i) am very aware that he (we) don't have a penis). but also seems that that part can't post to the female board (because having a gender identity that diverges from chromosomes and phenotype means i don't count as male or as female according to your criteria).

that is kinda hurtful, yeah.

I AM REPOSTING THIS OFF THE MENS FORUM SINCE IT WAS REMOVED FROM THERE> THIS IS MEANT TO BE PRIOR TO THE ABOVE POST> IT WILL HELP CLARIFY THE MEANING (I HOPE)

> I would think the name -- Men's focused support -- is pretty self-evident.

You might have thought it. I have asked about five times now what the criteria is, however, which I would have thought fairly clearly conveys that no, it is not self-evident to me.

> Do I really have to dig down into specifics when we create a forum like this and say, "Sorry, you need to have these chromosomes and these components and this identity in order to post here"??

Well, I have asked about five times...

So (in the interests of clarity):

In order to post here you need to meet the following criteria (where each component is necessary and together they are all jointly sufficient):

1) Male chromosomes (so no people can post to the male or female forums if they have non-typical chromosomes)
2) Male sex organs (so no people can post to the male board if their doctor made a whoopsie while they were being circumscised, for example. In fact even if these people were raised female, they wouldn't be able to post to the girls board because they would not meet condition 1)
3) Male gender identity (though I'm guessing sexual preference doesn't matter)?

I guess (once again) I'm concerned about all these people being excluded given that this is a forum for people with mental disorders and gender identity is currently listed in the DSM...

I really don't see how the above can be assessed. Sure my name is alexandra_k but what makes you think I don't meet the above criteria? Without breaking my confidentiality you cannot assess that. In fact... I don't know what my chromosomes are, truth be told.

It is okay. I won't post to this board again.

There is this little thing called 'the ideal of androgyny'. It kind of precludes it. To me people are people are people are people, you see...

I saw that someone signed up before with gender identity disorder wondering if this place (the boards as a whole) were for them. Haven't seen them post since... But it might well be the case that this forum isn't suitable given the attitudes that seem to be fostered here...

[DocJohn]

If you have any concerns regarding whether it's appropriate to post to a specific forum on a specific topic, I suggest you first talk to an admin or moderator to seek clarification.

Now that you've received that clarification and have said three times already that you won't post here again, I hope this issue is resolved. Not every forum is for every person and while we try our best to be as inclusive as possible, we're not always going to be the perfect fit for every individual's unique, personal needs.

John

> we're not always going to be the perfect fit for every individual's unique, personal needs.

the implication being that gender identity disorder, accidents that affect anatomy, and chromosomes that aren't typically male or female are such 'unique' occurrances that we can simply not worry about them.

it isn't just about me. i just used me as an example.

but no matter. i guess pedophiles and sociopaths probably aren't so welcome here either even though those conditions are mental disorders...

[LMo]

actually, I'm glad that you brought this up, Alexandra. I don't think that's what DocJohn concluded, but you raise a good point.

If there are any members with gender identity issues, I would be happy to help figure out a solution for them. Please PM me and be assured of my confidentiality.