Feeling Foolish

I have to assume that most women my age have learned the lesson I learned today, at some point in their 20s or early 30s with men they have brief, long distant relationships with. Me? I'm nearly 50 and finally learned my lesson today.

A man I had a brief relationship with 20 years ago, that turned long distance, that he ended despite my best efforts, came back into my life 4 years ago by happenstance. I saw his Facebook profile on a friend's Facebook wall. So, I reached out to him and we reconnected. Over the past four years we met twice in person for a lunch and a dinner when he returned home to visit his family and friends here. He'd message me on Facebook asking if I was free for lunch or dinner. Other than that, he occasionally left nice comments on my Facebook wall about something I posted. But that was all. And that was fine.

What bothered me, was that we never had the discussion about our past. I didn't have the courage to ask him why he rejected me. He wrote it in a letter 20 years ago that he decided we're better off friends, but I felt like I deserved the truth, even though as we know with relationships, the truth often hurts. So, we never discussed our past relationship...ever. Until today.

In the 4 years of reconnecting, I never asked him when he'd be back in town because I didn't feel like it was my place to; I'm not his wife (he has one already) or his best pal (which he has plenty of, both genders). I'm just a casual acquaintance...a woman he slept with 20 years ago and dumped. Why did I think he'd ever look past that label, and see that I had more worth than that?

He deleted me today, when I saw a photo of him in town drinking at a local pub with friends that included two mutual friends of ours (who have no idea that he and I even know each other). Because I teased him with a message that i figured he stopped contacting me to get together when he was in town because he felt awkward about our last dinner (he flirted with me and complained to me about his 10 year marriage problems, and tried to feed me food from his dinner fork, which I rejected, no thanks you're married buddy).

He deleted me from Facebook and responded that he's so busy, so popular with so many people, always being contacted by his friends stateside to talk on the phone or make time to see them, that he doesn't have time for someone like me, sincerely, [his name].

I guess the point of this post is more a realization that my expectations with this man 20 years later were totally unrealistic; that because he friend-zoned me back then, then got married, it would be totally fine to just be regular friends. Nope, I guess that's not how it works in these situations. My mistake.

So, I feel pretty foolish. I shouldn't assume that just because a relationship doesn't work out, that a genuine, platonic friendship is possible. He never gave me the chance and so his rejection hurts my ego a little bit. Like, he's friends with all of these other brilliant women, but thinks I'm just not worth his time. Esp. our mutual friends who are women, whom he never had a relationship with (as far as I know). Because I feel like if we'd met as colleagues, or school friends, we would be real friends.

Can't men and women be friends after a relationship ends? Esp. if 20 years has passed? I assumed it was possible. I had no idea he'd so easily delete me from his life again, without acknowledging first that I had ever meant anything to him (which apparently, I do not).

Please don't feel foolish. We live and we learn. I've noticed that people don't usually change a whole lot, even in 20 years.

It is possible to be friends with the opposite sex. Just not this guy. He hurt you once and dumped you. He didn't change. Forgive yourself for getting suckered into his egomania again and surround yourself with people who truly care about you.

Update: the level of ridiculousness with these people knows no bounds.

So, this morning I woke up to a Facebook friend's status about how there are no second chances and broken hearts cannot be healed by going back to the person who broke them.

Hmm, I thought. That seems very coincidental with the way this man suddenly dumped me for a second time...on Facebook no less. How did my friend know this, I wondered? No, it has to be a coincidence! It has to be. Aaaand it wasn't!

Turns out, she messaged him before this all happened and they became Facebook friends. Now, when I messaged her this morning to ask her why she betrayed my trust and chatted with this man behind my back, and learned about my history with him FROM him not me. Do you know what she did?

She deleted me from Facebook.

Why. Why do I put up with this kind of nonsense from people who claim to be my friend, only to find out they're not even close to what I define as 'friend.'

All she had to do was admit that yes, they'd been chatting (she's married too, but he's very good looking, so she probably was curious why such a man would be Facebook friends with a person as ridiculous as me, and chatted him up via Facebook messaging but never telling me until I found out).

The really weird thing is, her mother is still Facebook friends with me and told me not to sweat the small stuff. I really need to take some LSD if my life is going to become so trippy and psychedelic like this where people who pretend to be my friend morph into frenemies before my very eyes.

I must be a complete moron, a ridiculous person, a total dimwit to deserve this from people. They must think me dumb as rocks or something. Who does that to someone! Not me.

I really can't take any more of this nonsense.

Why can't I get any emotional support from people in PC for the ***** I've been put through by my former Facebook friends? Has no one been betrayed like this either? I feel like people here read this thread, judge me harshly, and remain silent judges. I'm fed up with being treated like a doormat. Fed up with it.

I don't think anyone is judging you, cielpur. My guess is that people read your posts and feel bad for you, but are just not sure what to say. I really feel bad for you that you've been treated that way by so-called 'friends.' I haven't really had a situation like that come up for me on Facebook. The closest example I've experienced is with a woman I consider to be an extremely close friend behaving much more warmly and with more care to other friends of hers, and sort-of ignoring me. It's very hurtful, but I also take into account that it has little to do with me and a lot to do with her.

I don't think you are being charged or ignored. I have similar challenges in my personal relationships, frankly more intense than the experience that you shared with us. Since I don't have structure and/or the tools to deal with my chaotic personal relationships, I cannot say anything helpful. I am giving myself as an example for you to see a different reality, a different perception, which is that no one is ignoring you. My lack of response to your post has absolutely nothing to do with you but has a lot to do with me.
I don't have Facebook. Btw.

I just realized how many people in my life whom I've mistakenly labeled as "friends" who were in fact, emotionally abusive to me.

1. They gaslight me, when I try to communicate that they said or did something that hurt my feelings, because they're more concerned with not feeling guilty about how they treated me like a doormat.

2. When I want to be direct and honest with these types of friends, I second guess myself because I know deep down that they'll just deflect and victim blame, not take me seriously, complete dismiss my feelings and ignore and disrespect my boundaries.

3. They don't listen to me when I want to share something exciting that happened. Or, if I ask them to be on-time or return my call, or respond to my email message or text message they won't. And if I ask them why they're ignoring my message or phone call, they'll deflect again, and blame me, rather than just admit they were acting like a jerk and apologize for hurting my feelings.

4. These types of emotionally-abusive friendships always have felt one-sided to me. I always make more effort with these people, to be a decent friend to them, than they make to be a decent friend to me. And instead of working out conflicts with me, they just state that the friendship is too much emotional work (such a b.s. excuse) so they wish me well (what a crock of **** that phrase is) and end the friendship via email.

It makes me realize that I am still attracting emotionally abusive people into my life as friends (since I no longer date). I went to therapy to develop the tools (assertiveness, strong boundaries, high self esteem) needed to fend off emotional abusers.

Clearly, I am not using those tools as well as I should be.

I'm pissed at myself. I don't know why I can't break this interpersonal pattern. I deserve to be involved with two-way friendships where the other person makes as much effort as I do, because they like and respect my feelings.

Where are these people and why can't I find them to befriend them? So far, I just attract the wrong types of friends into my life. This is really frustrating!!!

Ever consider that he has a true inability to have authentic emotionally intimate relationships? Toying with you is about power and control? How was his relationship with his mom?

In a odd way, you've described a familiar type of character. Not on a personal level, but in a nothing seems to amaze me how different individuals in different regions can have experience with similar personality types.

Just the other night a friend of mine had clicked something on my page. I went to her page, saw 2 familiar male faces. One being very platonic of the past but his picture showed his daughter and my son had gone to the same school. Yet, our paths hadn't quite crossed. The other was my ex. The more things change, they remain the same. When he posts(yes I peeked in), still the same 3 dozen or so responses. Mainly women. His mom sent him to his dad's at a young age while his siblings stayed. Totally wounded. Then I peeked at the other guy. We all went to school together. Yet these two are not fb friends. Hmm? I'm tossing this in here because on some deeper level, I feel it shows the variation of filling voids and being whole.

Sorry to read of such a sucky experience.

Every time I attempted to stand up for myself with him, he would twist my words to make me sound less intelligent and less reasonable than him. Nothing I did worked with him, to get my opinions heard or respected or listened to.

If I disagreed with him, called him out on his emotional abuse, he deflected and played the victim-blame game with me, acting as if I was mistreating him or being mean to him, when I was really just asserting myself, disagreeing with him, or asking him to respect my feelings. He never really respected my opinions, in hindsight. The last time we met for dinner, he had his cellphone out on the restaurant table the entire time, and kept excusing himself to go use the men's room. I had no idea why he'd even invited me out for dinner because it was a truly awkward experience.

He was very charming, very articulate, and we had the same interests which is why we briefly dated 20 years ago. His father was physically abusive to him and his sister, and their mother who never protected him or his sister. Then, his father died and his relationship with his mother morphed into him emotionally abusing her but not emotionally abusing his sister.

When I did look through his Facebook profile, he had blocked me from his wall as far back as 2014 which is when we reconnected. So, for the past 3 years, if he'd been updating his Facebook statuses, I never saw them b/c while i was his Facebook friend, I couldn't read his updated Facebook statuses, just what his Facebook friends posted because they had tagged him. So, that itself is a red flag. I think. I never pined for him romantically. I just wanted to be his friend. Now, though, I question WHY I needed or wanted his approval so much, when deep down he didn't give a damn about me either way. When I asked him what I meant to him 20 years ago, he couldn't give me an answer.

This whole experience has me questioning quite a few past friendships, so I guess that is the silver lining. I remember this gal from a group I belonged to. SHe invited me to her roommate's house party and when I got there, she totally avoided and ignored my attempts to talk to her the entire time I was there. Who does that? I consider that to be a form of emotional abuse. You know?

Or the friend I constantly did favors for, with no reciprocation from her...at all. When she did couples therapy, I babysat their child multiple times. What did she do to repay me? She broke up with her fiance, stole my boyfriend, and "poached" (stole) 3 friends away from me (including my roommate).

Or the friend who was depressed and at a life crossroads b/c she'd just been fired. I invited her out to socialize with myself and a small group of friends to cheer her up. When we were all out at dinner, one of my guy friend's friend asked me if he could give her a ride home. Fast forward years later and I never heard from her after that night. I wasn't even invited to her wedding and she didn't even acknowledge that I was the one who introduced her to her current husband. I don't even exist to her anymore, and our mutual friends keep up with her and her husband, but totally shun me socially (for years now).

I'm just fed up with letting people emotionally abuse my good nature. Maybe they don't emotionally abuse others, but just me? That's how I feel anyway.

My experience is that people don't want to be controlled. This includes not wanting to be told to return texts, phone calls, or hear that they hurt my feelings. People, including friends, don't want to hear any complaints, even if the complaints are valid. Expectation, even when justified, resulted in many friends leaving me. I have learned to lower my expectations and I stopped complaining.

I am sorry that you experienced that, but I have to disagree with you that having lower expectations with people means that they perceive you to be a better friend. And, I have no desire to "control" my friends.

But I do reserve the right to set limits with them, so that they know where I'm coming from. Why do you think its wrong to set limits with people?

When you are explicit with your expectations -- esp. with friends -- then they know right off the bat what your boundaries are, what you will and won't put up with from them. I believe that healthy friendships are built from having healthy expectations.
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I read an article that talked about the benefits of setting limits with people. First, it makes you more self aware, because you recognize your needs and feelings as your own, and not tied to another person or to your home or work or school environment. Then, that if you don't set limits with other people, they will set limits for you (by taking advantage of you or just ignore your emotional needs). If you don't set limits with people, they will violate your boundaries and be disrespectful to you. Plus, setting limits helps you prioritize your own well-being. You protect yourself from boundary invaders by setting limits with people who you know will mistreat you if you don't let them know what you are willing to put up with or not.

I don't see it as "controlling" to establish limits with people, about what I will and won't tolerate from them, because they will do the same to me. Everyone is that way. If you express your own needs to another person, you're being transparent. So, you're being a good communicator. I would rather communicate than "mind-read" or anticipate that my friends will intuitively know, respect, and understand my limits. Been there, done that. It doesn't work! Saying "no" to advantage-takers has been a liberating experience for me. I don't owe anyone anything, and I will not tolerate being "controlled" by others through their intimidation, threats, or cajoling.

If i have to be friendless right now, that's fine. But I'd rather be friendless than hanging on to people who don't know my boundaries so they either take advantage of me or completely neglect my friendship and then act indignant when I tell them that they disappointed me. W

The part of twisting you around to be the bad guy sounds familiar. Mine was a rocky hs into college relationship. A couple of decades ago. Certainly, in my own lack of maturation into my early adulthood, as far as, understanding healthy relationships and communication myself, it was a most confusing time. The damage led to some further not so well relationship choices, ones in which I learned to not speak up/speak out.(in those relationships, learned since because of the outcomes of full scale abuse)
I wish I had advice about friendships to give some type of insight. But as far as how you describe him, yep, yep, yep. Cannot say I've ever since bothered with any man since that is like that.
I certainly wouldn't call you foolish for seeing through new lenses what it was about him.

I hope it is okay that I say this as you seem to be very real and open to feedback: i think you are expecting way too much from people. I am sure that you know this but please remember that everyone is fighting a battle that you know nothing about.

Can you explain why you think I expect too much from people?

And, why aren't you including me in the "please remember that everyone is fighting a battle that you know nothing about" platitude.
Because it seems like you are intentionally excluding me from that platitude, to drive home your belief that my limits with people are unrealistic, maybe because my limits with people are different from the limits you set with people. That doesn't make my limits wrong or unrealistic. That makes them different from yours.

If you -- or someone else, chooses not to communicate what battles you're fighting, that is not my responsibility to guess. That is the other person's responsibility. We have to set limits with each other, we have to hold each other accountable. Otherwise, we can't evolve ourselves. If the other person won't change, that's their choice. I can't force anyone to evolve or change. And that's not my job to. Stop implying that it is my job. Because that's what you're doing.

You know, I'm also fighting a battle, so why should other people's limits matter more than my own? Is that what you're trying to tell me to do? Because that's what your platitude is communicating here. What it seems like you're telling me, is that other people's needs matter more than mine do, and that is certainly not true. Do you lower your expectations to put others' needs ahead of your own? Or, do you set limits with people so they know what you will and won't tolerate from them.

For example, in college, I'd go to house parties and sometimes the drunk guys there would hit on me. If I lowered my expectations (which is what your advising me to do in your previous post here) and put those drunk guys' needs ahead of my own, they'd get laid and I'd get raped. But according to you, that's ok, because my setting limits with people is wrong. Or this guy I dated 20 years ago. I was 100% transparent with him in person and in my letters. That's setting limits. He knew who I was, what I expected. Yet, he didn't want to meet my expectations then, or now, before he deleted me from his Facebook. He wanted to control me, to shame me, to belittle me for having a solid sense of self, for holding him accountable for being a total **** to me (he tried to deflect, but he failed, because I see his true colors finally and those colors are judgmental, emotionally abusive colors).

You seem to imply that I shouldn't even set limits (boundaries) with people. Is that a wrong assumption? I hate making assumptions but in this case, I am. I believe we have to hold each other accountable. That is necessary. And, if people hold me accountable for my actions and my words, I have the right to hold them accountable for the same. How does that make my expectations with people unrealistic? That's a legitimate question, not rhetorical.

I don't want to control or change other people, and I am not going to let anyone control or try to change me. I did that route in high school and college when my self esteem was low, and it still didn't earn me people's respect. So, no more. I know what my limits, expectations, and boundaries are. Now, I just have to find people to befriend and date, who respect those limits, expectations, and boundaries.

These articles support my belief in why its necessary to set limits with people.

https://psychcentral.com/lib/the-imp...al-boundaries/

https://psychcentral.com/lib/10-way-...er-boundaries/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jennif...b_9345180.html

https://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-1317...oundaries.html

Sorry to hear about your rocky relationship that you experienced decades ago that led you on journey of unhealthy relationships after that. I was on that journey with men too. I chose men who shared narcissistic, emotionally abusive, emotionally unavailable qualities with my father, like the man I feel foolish about whom I refer to and the friendships I now realize were also abusive to me, because I either set limits they didn't like, or I didn't set limits with these people, so they set limits for me that I didn't like.

I now see that despite our similar interests, we were incompatible for the long-term because he didn't respect the limits I set (my expectations, my boundaries), and I didn't agree with his limits that he set with me (when we briefly dated and had a long distant relationship, his letters were written in a very cold monotone, formal business style, not the funny, charming guy I had met in person, so it was very bizarre to read his letters which he used to break up with me).

I am sorry, you have made a lot of incorrect assumptions about my very short post. In fact, none of your interpretations about my battle comment reflect a glimpse of why I shared that perception. Hence, i am choosing not to continue this discussion and that is me setting my limit and boundaries with you. I am sure you will respect it.

[QUOTE=cielpur;5810221]Can you explain why you think I expect too much from people?

And, why aren't you including me in the "please remember that everyone is fighting a battle that you know nothing about" platitude.
Because it seems like you are intentionally excluding me from that platitude, to drive home your belief that my limits with people are unrealistic, maybe because my limits with people are different from the limits you set with people. That doesn't make my limits wrong or unrealistic. That makes them different from yours.

If you -- or someone else, chooses not to communicate what battles you're fighting, that is not my responsibility to guess. That is the other person's responsibility. We have to set limits with each other, we have to hold each other accountable. Otherwise, we can't evolve ourselves. If the other person won't change, that's their choice. I can't force anyone to evolve or change. And that's not my job to. Stop implying that it is my job. Because that's what you're doing.

You know, I'm also fighting a battle, so why should other people's limits matter more than my own? Is that what you're trying to tell me to do? Because that's what your platitude is communicating here. What it seems like you're telling me, is that other people's needs matter more than mine do, and that is certainly not true. Do you lower your expectations to put others' needs ahead of your own? Or, do you set limits with people so they know what you will and won't tolerate from them.

For example, in college, I'd go to house parties and sometimes the drunk guys there would hit on me. If I lowered my expectations (which is what your advising me to do in your previous post here) and put those drunk guys' needs ahead of my own, they'd get laid and I'd get raped. But according to you, that's ok, because my setting limits with people is wrong. Or this guy I dated 20 years ago. I was 100% transparent with him in person and in my letters. That's setting limits. He knew who I was, what I expected. Yet, he didn't want to meet my expectations then, or now, before he deleted me from his Facebook. He wanted to control me, to shame me, to belittle me for having a solid sense of self, for holding him accountable for being a total **** to me (he tried to deflect, but he failed, because I see his true colors finally and those colors are judgmental, emotionally abusive colors).

You seem to imply that I shouldn't even set limits (boundaries) with people. Is that a wrong assumption? I hate making assumptions but in this case, I am. I believe we have to hold each other accountable. That is necessary. And, if people hold me accountable for my actions and my words, I have the right to hold them accountable for the same. How does that make my expectations with people unrealistic? That's a legitimate question, not rhetorical.

I don't want to control or change other people, and I am not going to let anyone control or try to change me. I did that route in high school and college when my self esteem was low, and it still didn't earn me people's respect. So, no more. I know what my limits, expectations, and boundaries are. Now, I just have to find people to befriend and date, who respect those limits, expectations, and boundaries.

These articles support my belief in why its necessary to set limits with
/QUOTE]


The links you shared are very good btw. I just reviewed them. Thank you.

Cielpur....interesting thoughts.

I have a few of my own to share. I think you may be confusing boundaries with expectations and treating them as if they were synonymous...one and the same. They are not.

For example, "When I text someone I expect the to text me back immediately!" It they don't they are not violating your boundaries. No, instead they are not meeting your expectations. Maybe they were busy, or had their own issues to deal with. They are also allowed to have their own boundaries to too. Maybe they didn't like being dictated by your rules and felt like their own boundaries were violated?

What was the original question? Can men and women be friends after they dated?

Answer-if both parties want to be friends.