[Quanticia]

Hi all and thank you for being here!
I have a serious problem that threatens to ruin my life...

I graduated few months ago, finally reaching my "official" job-hunting stage! But…I have a lifelong inner turmoil about what I want to do with my life. It SEVERELY interferes with what I need to do NOW. The general question is “art or science”. None of the things I've tried have done more than hiding the problem. Not even deciding to "just find a job and do what's left in my free time" has worked. It has become a psychological wall that doesn’t let me to move on. I fail to concentrate at the simple act of searching, my motivation and self-faith has hit the floor, and it's getting worse every day. I currently live with my parents in deep family debt, so you can figure how urgent it is to become "functional" in this area! (I'm not asking you to choose for me, just to help me unfreeze my brain…) I'm afraid to make my pick without being 100% certain. I need to invest most of my time in boosting my abilities and knowledge, whatever it is, and it's one of the reasons there's no way back.

Now, the “life story”. I’ve wanted to become an artist since I were little. Till today people say I have talent (most everyone, not just my mom...btw my drawings). But, I decided to go for Materials Science instead. The plan was to finish fast and study art next…only (1) I finished at my 26yrs instead, (2) I grew to enjoy the beauty and logic of science, taking art less seriously, (3) crisis hit Greece, so I shouldn’t cling on my cloud. The new plan was to submit for science jobs, and go for a post-grad if I couldn’t find any. I got an unpaid internship in Aerospace Industry (awesome), and mostly-unpaid artistic submissions at my free time. Zero money, Zero inner peace. Also, when I thought I were becoming a scientist at heart, I started [NSFW mild warning] fantasizing of random paintings during sex. Decorative ones, not even nudes [end of NSFW]. Which I still feel strange about and don’t know why it kept happening. I’m so confused about what I want to do, I don’t know how to handle it anymore. And the obsession doesn’t let me properly look for a job.

Now, what I want from a job...
-to cover up expenses (obviously)
-to challenge my creativity and logic (I can't live if I'm not evolving and learning, simply signing papers for 40 years would kill me)
-an ok environment
-to leave me some time for friends and family
-not to be in conflict with my character and beliefs (I’d not want to harm/use people)
-Recognition…sort of. I really look up to my successful relatives, most of which love their jobs and have done important things in their lives (my mother’s an arts teacher that always tries to help kids, my father’s life-work was to bring and sustain computer knowledge in the country, my gramps’ a grand trader, my aunt a doctor…you get it) So I dream of looking a bit like them, offering to lots of people, while doing something I love, and I’m proud of.

Do you have any ideas? E.g. potentially helpful questions to answer, or alternative ways of thinking? Anything may help...thanks again

[Mustkeepjob32]

It sound like you want to do everything at once. What about breaking things down and starting with one thing. For instance, try to get a job only and not try to do the other things you have on your list. Then maybe you can move on to challenging yourself. But doing all those things at the same time would make anyone anxious!

[Travelinglady]

Hi, Quantico. Do you like computers? I know a lot of art is done using computers these days. Graphic arts?

Architecture?

I am not sure we can ever be 100% sure of anything, though.

[spondiferous]

Aha! FINALLY! Someone who is as torn about these things as I am!

Here's something that I'm using to help me work through the same questions. As an artist, what would I do to support myself? What kinds of art would I do? Travelinglady mentioned digital/graphic art. Right now I'm considering a program - a degree - that would enable me to gain strong technical and artistic skill as an illustrator with painting, drawing, and digital media, while also enabling me to study branding, typography, and professional development. It would equip me with skills I would need to still be creative - some of my artistic professional goals include writing and illustrating children's books and a graphic novel series, and exhibiting contemporary art in galleries, as well as an environmental art practice, working mostly with natural materials sculpture, found objects, photography, and digital image manipulation.

That said...there are so many other things I'm interested in.

I guess you could try to find a job in what you're trained for right now, take care of the impending financial burden, and then when you have more energy to think clearly about your chosen path you can make a better decision. Or you can follow your calling as an artist. I looked at your work; you are very talented. Not only that but it is clear to me through your treatment of your subject matter that you are passionate about what you do.

It's some stuff to think on. I wish you luck. Let me know if you ever want to talk about it. I still have no idea what to do myself. :eyeroll: Sometimes I wish I was one of those people who only ever wanted to do one thing in life!

[Onward2wards]

((( Quanticia )))

It isn't that your dreams are getting in the way, it's fear and conflicting needs that are overwhelming you. I am experiencing something very similar in my own life right now. I wish you all the best.

[Quanticia]

Wow, a lot of replies! Thanks
I am thinking of graphic arts, yes...I've heard someone saying that "there aren't enough actual artists on this field", and I've been intrigued since (without knowing if it's true). It is sort of replacing classic arts on my list, since it's more practical and trade-able. I know my Photoshop and were thinking of educating myself in 1-2 more programs, for start. But that's how my train of thought works:
When thinking of art: "I need to exercise and educate myself further to go for graphic arts. Or to make tons of paintings to sell online, which'll take a lot of dedication. Can I be creative 24/7? And be fast enough to be productive? And not lose my quality, and not burn-out? What about the taxes, if I do personal buisness? Also I could probably offer greater things through science, and maybe be even more proud of myself...could art be a waste of potential? Although it looks like my calling? Worse, could I be unable to sustain a family in the future because of it?" (note: I'm extremely economic in my personal expenses)
When thinking on science: "I'll most probably need a postgraduate degree for this, from what I've seen. Or at least a lot of dedicated personal study, to persuade people that "I know". But I believe a lot in how science can shape the world and would be proud to be part of it-I made good impression in my internship too. But what if I can't be the type of scientist I'd want to be? What if I can't do the things I want and get stuck in a repetitive job instead? What if I spend my life wondering how would it be if I followed art? In general I've seen that people want my art, probably more than my science...I know by experience that the "art thing" will keep bugging me, and we only live once..."

So, you see, it's a circle...and I don't know how to get out of it. So I'm practically trying to rationalize my reasoning as much as possible, and find things that'll help me stop chasing my tail.

Spondiferous-Thanks for the positive critic Actually, I can "just find a job" for now, and if I go for art I'll have to. I can be patient, but: I think I need to make some sort of decision first, to stop acting "frozen" and make my plans. I were thinking of using science to try moving to Italy, which has tradition in both materials and arts. Yet I need to know inside me my personal long-term plan. Best of luck to you too!

Onward2wards-Good luck to you too!

[Quanticia]

Ok! I've managed to calm down a bit, and think deeper on all posts above (I calmed down by reading them over and over. Thanks everyone! )

spondiferous: You made me think something important. I need to try finding ways in which I could support a family with my art. Instead of just supposing I can't. Extra exercise and establishing a personal style would help against the burn-out too. As for science, since I never were mad scientist material, I should stop expecting to pull robots out of a magic hat, and focus on the humbler pleasures of knowledge. I can still be "part of it" without aiming for greatness. I sometimes forget that I'm not my parents, too...
So: (1) extensive googling for "survivable" art, (2) using science as a media to keep my brain sharp and to raise my job-finding chances. I haven't decided where to focus yet, I still feel "stuck" at jobs' searching, but it's a good step

By the way, spondiferous, if you work as a freelancer, it's better if you are good in a few areas...so from this aspect it's great you are restless

[spondiferous]

Hehe. Thanks Quanticia.
I like what you mentioned about Italy. My wife often comments that I'm a Renaissance woman: I want to study it all. Philosophy, science, art, other humanities and social sciences. And it's true. I'm interested in everything! But I have been an artist first, and longest. An artist of dance, music, images and words. Why wouldn't it make sense for me to follow this somehow?
She has urged me to, if not pursuing fine arts, or digital/graphic art, then to pursue creative writing.
You were also very right about another thing: at some point I am just going to have to take the plunge and make a decision. I know that by making no decision I am still making a decision...the deadliest one of all, perhaps.
Good luck to you!

LoL'd @ "pulling robots out of a hat".

[Quanticia]

Haha I'm also interested at everything! I can completely understand the feeling
A deadly decision, indeed...it's funny how heroic facing such dilemmas seems, while we feel like a kid with a wooden sword. Who knows, we probably are... but we can always have the hope of outgrowing the problem
Glad for making you laugh Good luck to you, too

[Sometimes psychotic]

So even the professional artists I know have a day job...I don't see any reason you can't do science and art simultaneously. I agree that you'll need at least a masters in science for that...I have a phd in microbiology. The job outlook for science is not super...ie you're not likely to end up a professor running you own lab but can work for someone else and be part of a team effort( of about 50 grad students trained over the five years in my program I think 5 are tenure tracks profs).

Lots of people I know working in the lab do art and it's beautiful...none of them professionally but there is no reason why that couldn't happen. Again some of the professional artists I met felt crushed by art school and realized afterwards a degree is not necessary in that field unless you want to teach etc.

Anyway I do research on intestinal bacteria but at the same time here is my deviant art profile....admittedly not updated for a while despite lots of new work...

Sally599's deviantART Gallery

I enjoy it more as a hobby so I haven't worked hard enough to make it look professional but that's the great part of it not being a career....I don't have to do anything I want. It may be that pet portraits are selling well...if you're in it for the money you'll do what people will buy instead of what you most want to do....

Also FYI I don't know about Greece but in the states if you're getting a phd the school will typically pay you a stipend in addition to comping your tuition...so it's not more debt and although the stipend is very low you can live on it.

[spondiferous]

Yeah it's the same here. For instance, in the Physics and Astronomy graduate program at the University of Victoria, they give you something like 23,000 a year at the PhD level. pretty sweet. That's in addition to all the opportunities you get in return: being able to teach, research, access to all the top facilities, etc. I know that none of the arts or humanities have nearly that amount of incentive, sadly.
Sometimes psychotic: I love your deviant art profile. I have one as well but have yet to post on it.

[Quanticia]

I love the "unidentified Amazon shaman" signature!
Actually, that's some very interesting information...I've looked around Europe for PhDs, but most are plain free. I have relatives in Canada, I'll ask them how things are there now that I know of the possibilities...Thanks [Edit: damn, I'm sleepy...I need to get a postgraduate degree before the Phd...and it's postgrads I've been looking about. I feel stupid ]

Sometimes Psychotic- I've looked at your gallery, by the way. While your topics aren't super-complex they have a very beautiful focus and a real freshness to them (all these animals must have taken a lot of search and patience!) Your painting style looks like vitro, have you ever tried making any?

About having to make art I don't like-this used to stop me, but not anymore. I've found I can mostly compromise what I can make with what I'm asked for (provided that the asker generally likes my style). In graphic arts it's easier, because half the job is "technical" (choosing frames, colors, fonts...) so my inner art beast can have its space to think I need to work out a bit, though...I haven't updated for some time either.

[edit 2] Spondiferous, when you do post drop us a note here! I want to see!

[Sometimes psychotic]

I don't know what a post graduate degree is...here we do a bachelors of science in college and then straight to the phd also if you fail out of the phd you walk away with a masters...

Is vitro stained glass? No I haven't done it but a friend and her husband do it...right now they don't have the space to do it though. I do love glass but I think I'd rather learn blown glass tbh.

Well I hope it all works out for you whatever you choose...

[spondiferous]

Sometimes psychotic: here we have a graduate and a post-graduate (Canada). The graduate is the Masters. The postgrad is the PhD, usually. And except under extraordinary circumstances, you always have to do the Master's before the PhD.

[Sometimes psychotic]

Originally Posted by spondiferous

Sometimes psychotic: here we have a graduate and a post-graduate (Canada). The graduate is the Masters. The postgrad is the PhD, usually. And except under extraordinary circumstances, you always have to do the Master's before the PhD.

Hmm---for us you apply for a PhD program and get accepted and if you fail you get a masters----all that is free/paid but if you apply for only a masters you have to pay tuition and they won't pay you either----the master's are much more common in bioengineering and fields like that where chemistry and various biology programs usually have the full PhD programs. They are really distinct in that if you get a masters you would still have to go to a full 5 years PhD program---there is no way to extend it once you have a masters---the masters is terminal in those programs....

Now outside of the sciences its totally different....

[Quanticia]

I discovered a well-hidden trap in my psychology. A very important trap!!! I kept saying myself, "since I want to be an artist so badly, I should at least try it seriously once...and if it doesn't work it means I'm not cut out for art as business, so I'll stick to making big time as a scientist"

Watch the "just once" part. I weren't allowing myself to try more than once, I were persuaded I weren't entitled to more than one try...when the cycle of try-and-fail is essential to learn and succeed. I've been intimidating myself badly, it's also one of the reasons I have (it's "had" now)a growing art anxiety that didn't let me draw.

Plus, this way science became "unfriendly", since it became the shadow that would be allowed to consume my love for art. And that's why this way of thinking was making me to freeze...And it is lucky it did. The freezing saved me! I would have failed in art, and my subconscious love for it would hinder me in science forever (as it has up to now, in escalating levels). In short, I'd most probably be doomed to live as a mediocre and unsatisfied person!!!

I'm not sure of how I realized the whole thing, it was like divine inspiration, but I feel extremely lucky. Step one was to stop having extreme expectations from my scientific side, step two to ditch the insecurity baggage in art. My head feels very clear now. All I have to do is to return to my basic philosophy: never stop! At last, I can live by being sincere to myself and my dreams. I only have to figure how to balance both areas in my daily program and I'll be ok! (Which will take a bit of work, since both are demanding!)

[Perna]

to challenge my creativity and logic (I can't live if I'm not evolving and learning, simply signing papers for 40 years would kill me)

Two-fold problem with your logic here Nothing you do today has to be done for 40 years and most of your angst and self stone walling is coming from anxiety about a future you cannot know/which doesn't exist. Try to learn not to mix your imagination with your logic, anyone who thought all they were going to do is sign papers for 40 years would turn away.

Make a year-long, logical plan. Buy an artist's notebook and get "a" job. Journal about the job, both in words and drawings as you explore it. Does not matter what the job is, use your imagination to make it "your" job for that year. If you get a job as a dish washer, come up with a system that is better than how they train you to do it. Sketch/draw/paint, etc. the beauty of those soap bubbles. Learn to get along with a "rough" crowd that has been raised wholly differently than you have and has a different background, has had different experiences, is seemingly "stuck" because of that background and education. What would you do if you were in their shoes? How would you work your way out of it?

That is how to use your imagination, not to stop yourself by taking on the entire make-believe world of the future you imagine (where you single-handedly support your entire family :-) but to create yourself as you go along, to discover what your life and experiences will be as you live them, subtly influencing them by choosing what you like best, what you want, moment to moment.

Just like we are supposed to imagine ourselves as all characters in our night dreams, since they are our dreams we have created and we have created "that" character for a reason only knowable to ourselves; imagine your daily experiences the same way. Don't just be the dish washer, be the waitress putting up with the rude customer, be the customer, be the short order cook, be the owner, be Zorba Find which role in front of you suits your character and interests.

Do all this in relation to the logical 1 year plan Save X euros for Y purpose, give your family X euros for your room and board, join a group where you meet others in a similar situation to yourself in some way or similar interests and plan the next step. Study the science of dish soap, the mechanics of kitchen appliances, scribble about your hopes and dreams in your journal, paint what you know (the beauty of sex) and interview with gallery owners and graduate schools; aeronautical, dish soap, kitchen appliance companies...

[Quanticia]

I love this plan, thanks! (and the Zorba reference, haha!) I had almost forgotten how catastrophic is the assumption you can see so far in the future. It's good you reminded me. Your plan also fits in the way I want to organize things. Interviewing gallery owners and keeping a proper sketchbook are great ideas! I have thought of the gallery owners before, but I didn't have the confidence/skills level to ask them. Now I think I can handle it! Thanks for re-bringing it into focus It's all very spot-on.

I will be a bit picky in the "just a business thing", though, as I don't plan to work 24/7 for 400 euros/month (many people work like this here...ok, maybe not 24/7, but 12 hrs/day for 400-600/month-and often not knowing if you'll really get paid-is something that happens) So yes, I'll pass on the "dishwasher" offer and spend my time to search for a job that pays the basic bills at least.

I'm currently doing a market research in art, categorizing what I can do by price and audience. I'll choose the 1-2 easiest things from the list to start with, and then focus on exercising in production and marketing with them. I do need to buy my wallet some time though, so I'll treat "find something to pay the bills" as my new day job. And although I'm not sure I'll work on Materials Science, it raises my chances of finding something that is relevantly sufficient and I also like