[downsolong]

Are 12-step programs Cults?

Would their popularity or ubiquity change whether or not they are?

What does science have to say about the subject?

Who gets hurt and who gets helped?

~Down

[misty]

I looked in the dictionary the meaning of cult. Oh my! It said 1. religious system 2. faddish devotion.
lrks

[cms39]

I think being kept awake for all hours or kept inside the "quarters" of the group against one's will are some things to look for in a cult. I have NEVER seen a 12 step program do any of those things.

[(JD)]

Yes this falls into the religion realm as some here might be involved in a cult, but define it as their belief system i.e. their religion.

[BamaSurvivor]

I don't think 12 Step programs are anything near a cult. A cult is a strict religious system... 12 Steps is not. In NA/AA, all they ask of you is to find something that's POSITIVELY greater than yourself. They don't tell you to believe in a God that lies in heaven, they don't tell you to believe in earth and nature as their God. All they ask if you believe in SOMETHING/SOMEONE, your choice. Some peoples' God is totally different than others. That's one of the many beauties of NA/AA. Diversity.

[(JD)]

my reference was to the "cult" issue being linked to religion, not AA.

To paraphrase DocJohn's recent post:

The survey in this post is "unnecessarily inflammatory. I hope we can ask such questions in the future with a little more tact and respect for other people's feelings here.... "

AA has helped MANY people. Some of them have posted here about that.

People go to AA meetings because they are alcoholics seeking help. Some people stay for a while, some leave. Some stay for years. Because AA doesn't help everyone, does that mean it helps no one? Of course not. AA helps some people stay sober. Lately, the members of AA have helped keep ME sober.

Why someone would come to this particular forum and try to convince people that AA is BAD thing (a cult), is simply beyond my comprehension. How is that supportive? If someone finds that after they have attended some AA meetings, and it didn't help them....OK. They have two choices, stay drunk, or find another way to get sober. Putting down AA does neither of those things.

I wish troubled drinkers great strength in whatever helps them find a sober life.

emmy

[Raynaadi]

Amen Emily.

i have PMed with downs concerning his question. i think that downs has the right to post here and i don't see it as necessarily being inflammatory. he asked a question, expecting answers. he probably doesn't like the answers that he got, but that's life. i don't agree with him, either. he didn't answer the last PM that i sent but i'm not worried about that.......i think we'll still be friends. pat

[Kismet]

1) I don't believe 12step programs are cults. Cults generally have an authoritarian ruler who is always right. In addition there is usually some sort of abuse. I don't see this--and I have been a member of AA for 7 years.
2)Popularity? I am not sure I understand this question. Those who think AA is a cult generally do not attend AA.
3)I have no idea what science has to say about AA. There are certainly scientific opinions and theories on alcoholism.
4)Who gets hurt? geez---I dont know--perhaps folks who expect a 12step program to be something that it is not?

Down, have you ever been a member of a 12-step program? Are your feelings based on personal experience? I would be really interested in knowing why you feel the way you do.

Of course Down has a right to post here. Of course he has a right to say he disagrees with 12-Step programs and AA.

But, suggesting that AA kills, imo, is inflamatory. It's alcoholism which kills.

em

it's gotten to the point where anything can be inflammatory here. sometimes a "disagreement" can be taken up in PMs. we're having enough trouble now, keeping on keeping on. we struggle with it on a hourly, daily basis. pat

[SeptemberMorn]

Example: Scientology is a Cult. Once you're in, they won't let you out, they take all your worldly possesions now and in the future, young girls usually have to have sex with the guy that runs it. If the "group leader" thinks they're about to get busted, he'll make you commit suicide. (Jim Jones ring a bell with you?) BUT not all cults work the same. The Scientologist are getting their fair share of Tom Cruise's income as well as John Travolta and anyone else that's fallen into that trap.

Just because in AA they would like you to believe in a "higher power," it doesn't make it a cult, Down. Your "higher power" can be anything or anyone you want it to be. In a cult, the guy leading the group puts himself off as GOD or with a definite direct line to Him.

There ARE alcoholic recovery groups that don't have anything religious to follow, though.

Take Care

[Gemstone]

Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k&lt
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

from this defination almost any religion could be defined as being a "cult". AA/NA however is not a religion or a system of religious beliefs so therefore can not be a cult. There are plenty of non religious people that go to these groups.

[Gemstone]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sciento..._and_practices

Although I believe scientology is a load of crap it is not really fair to post things you don't directly know about. Take a look at the link. It is fairly acurate. They don't take all of your worldly posessions and young girls certainly aren't having sex with a science fiction writer who died 30 years ago.

[(JD)]

I doubt, no, I'm sure not everything is not reported that is occurring within a cult.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_checklist Gives a few checklists for determining a cult.. funny how even secular ppl can have the same type of viewpoint on this.

[SeptemberMorn]

I DIDN'T say that Scientology does that! I said cults in general do. Maybe you should re-read... carefully, this time.

[Gemstone]

I did reread and it still sounds to me like you are saying it about your example. It isn't even a fair statement to say cults ingeneral because it is not acurate. I am not condoning scientology or cults. I am saying don't make generalizations when you don't have first hand experience.

[SeptemberMorn]

How do you know I haven't? Have you? On what do you base your opinion of Scientology? Have YOU had first hand experience? Were you in the Jim Jones cult? No, of course you weren't. You're not dead!

[Gemstone]

I have had first hand experience. I work with several people who are active scientologists. I don't believe what they do but I respect their religion, as does the us government. I also have friends that have been missguided and are actively members of other "cults". I am not saying some cults aren't as you describe I am saying that they are not that way ingeneral. I don't really want to argue, but yes I do have first hand experience with members actively involved in "cults". We have something called freedom of religion in this country. I am sure you would be upset if someone insulted your religion. I am leaving this now, I didn't intend to start a debate just clarify a few items.

[SeptemberMorn]

So that makes you right and me wrong, eh? Whatever. Have it your way.

[jennie]

I think what defines a cult is that it deprives members their individual rights (or free will).

In AA and NA 12-step groups, members freely choose to attend and/or participate in open or closed meetings. If you don't like your sponsor, you get a new one. If you don't like the god others choose to surrender to, then you pick another one. You don't have to contribute any money if you don't want to, not even for the free coffee. If you choose, you stay anonymous. I don't think AA or NA 12-step groups are cults.

[downsolong]

Hmmmmmmmm. My poll, the first I've set up I think, seems to be rather all or nothing in design. Opps, sorry. I'm not sure if the software would allow a poll to be set up on more of a continuum, perhaps a 0-100% scale. Except by posting it in the first place I haven't voted to see what the results are so far and may not, as I maintain opinions are, at least often, irrelevant to science.

I've found several different web sites with similar ideas; this one (A. Orange's) while biased seems well researched and reasonable to me, as far as I've read at the present time. I don't have any allegiance to any one perspective and may very well change or adjust my opinions as I learn more. I hope to evolve and improve my reasoning and behaviors, as I'm able and would hope others would want to as well.

From my reading the implications of cults seem to go well beyond what happens in 12-step groups and their growing monopolization of healthcare. In my experience if one is unwilling to believe in "higher powers" incredible pressure is applied to do so by 12-step groups and the state supported healthcare and social services that I have approached for help. I have been in effect deigned adequate care/discriminated against for being atheist. Though it is irrelevant I have attended many ACOA meetings and though while there I didn't see the harm at the time and enjoyed a chance to socialize, I didn't get the help I sought and still need either. After a location change, I re-examined my beliefs and recalled I believed in science as the most reliable way to find what is true, not as some higher power but as a human tool.

I urge those interested and open minded to read up at any or all of the following sites or google your own:

WARNING some of the info you may find is quite biased as happens with life and death situations and you may find some of your own behavior and beliefs described.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

I haven't looked at the following links A. Orange reviews and apparently did link to in the past, use your discretion.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult-sos.html
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cultinfo.html
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-totalism.html

If someone has other site links that test for cult patterns that would be of interest to me and perhaps others here as well. Thanks to those who have already.

~Down

[Raynaadi]

Hey guys, I'm an alcoholic. I come to this board for support. And the things going on in this thread are far from supportive. I agree that everyone has the right to debate and state their opinion, but I don't come into your therapist's office or wherever it is you go to for support and start arguing with people. It's just disrespectful. This legitamate question has been totally taken off track, and there's no reason for bickering. Please, not here.

[shadowalker164]

I was going to stay out of this debate, but sense I may have started it with my thoughtless questioning of Down on his tagline of “"For every complex problem, there is a simple answer--and it is wrong!" a friend of mine posted this on another site, and I thought it might be of some help on this question.


“A FELLOWSHIP OF FREEDOM ...if only men were granted absolute liberty, and were compelled to obey no one, they would then voluntarily associate themselves in the common interest.
AS BILL SEES IT. P. 50

A.A. *Benign *Anarchy and *Democracy... p.50

When we come into A.A. we find a greater personal freedom than any other society knows. We cannot be compelled to do anything. In that sense our Society is a benign anarchy. The word "anarchy" has a bad meaning to most of us. But I think that the idealist who first advocated the concept felt that if only men were granted absolute liberty, and were compelled to obey no one, they would then voluntarily associate themselves in the common interest. A.A. is an association of the benign sort he envisioned.

But when we had to go into action - to function as groups - we discovered that we also had to become a democracy. As our old-timers retired, we therefore began to elect our trusted servants by majority vote. Each group in this sense became a town meeting. All plans for group action had to be approved by the majority. This meant that no single individual could appoint himself to act for his group or for A.A. as a whole. Neither dictatorship nor paternalism was for us.

A.A. COMES OF AGE, pp. 224-225

for those of you that are wondering what makes AA tick... this is it... "freedom"... a freedom such as one is unable to find in today’s society... alcoholics are extremely sensitive people... and yet these sensitive people are the first to rebel against authority... if you try to make me do something I will automatically resist... if I rebel... it is usually against authority... I resist strongly when being pushed into doing anything... but to be free to come and go as I please... to believe as I wish to believe... to have to freedom to think for myself rather than being ruled or dominated by others... this is freedom I never knew before... and as I enjoy these freedoms I discover more and more that true freedom comes from not so much from what I learn as much as it does from what I've been able to unlearn...”

p.s.
Down, I went to Orange Papers and read what was there. Most informative. Bill W. was prone to exaggeration to say the least. Remember, he started out as a stock speculator, a line of work that is known for less than honest evaluations. I for one wish he had applied the rigorous honesty he spoke so eloquently of to his estimations and proclamations, but he pumped sunshine instead. He could have just told the truth, and let the program speak for itself. But he was a promoter, and he promoted this program to excess. It wasn’t necessary, and he did it a disservice by being less than truthful.
This program is full of fallible people, it always was, and I suppose it always will be. But the ideas of willingness, honesty and open-mindedness are still good.

Richard