[emgreen]

I went to my AA home group yesterday morning & the topic somehow turned more into a a drug use discussion - remember that alcohol is as much of a drug as heroin or nicotine & many alcoholics have dual addictions. Well, the consensus around the tables was that taking drugs (even some prescription drugs for pain & anxiety) was not in line with the program. Ironically I spoke last & "came out" as bipolar. I admitted to taking psych meds, including one benzo (I've never abused them). I told them that being manic was like having a cocaine high plus 10...I've not slept for four days straight in the past & have boundless energy. No one gave me a hard time about it (again, I spoke last), but it felt strange to come clean about my MI & my resulting "drug use." There are some AA diehards who claim one shouldn't take any drugs at all...I don't go to those meetings! Anyways, benzos & addiction...What are your views?

[splitimage]

I'm on multiple psych meds including a benzo and am an alcoholic. My addictions Dr., who is normally totally opposed to benzos says it's fine for me to be on one, because I have a legitimate anxiety disorder, it's prescribed by a reputable psychiatrist and I take it strictly as prescribed and don't abuse it. She says she considers me sober.

I've run into grief from some AA members over taking meds, but as far as I;m concerned the only people whose opinion matters are my Drs.

spltimage

[gayleggg]

I believe that you can be an alcoholic and not abuse drugs. I think that as long as you are not abusing the benzos that they are okay, but to just be aware that it is a danger zone and be careful not to abuse them.

[LadyShadow]

I believe the two are DIRECTLY related. I am on one (klonopin) that I am totally addicted to for anxiety and sleep. As a matter fact when I get them refilled I have to wait the full 30 days AND show them my ID when I pick them up because it is a controlled substance.

I can't tell you how much that scares the **&^ out of me!

That being said, the drug does its job, better than all the sleeping medications I have ever taken. I still have a broken sleep sometimes, and some nights I can't get to bed and take them in a timely manner and still have trouble, but I manage somehow. But being an alcoholic for YEARS I have an extremely addictive personality (I also have Bipolar as well), so it's just about finding a balance.

I think it sucks that we trade off one addiction for another though (our benzos) but it is what it is. It helps us with our illness and as long as I FINALLY get sleep and keep the mania and delusions away so I can function and stay OUT of the hospital I am good with the benzos.

Good luck on your recovery! (I am also sorry to hear you had to "come out" in front of your AA group, that would have been tough for anyone).

Hugs!

[leejosepho]

Originally Posted by emgreen

There are some AA diehards who claim one shouldn't take any drugs at all...

A.A. does not require people to stop drinking or to stop anything else, and neither does it ever speak against anything...

"We are careful never to show intolerance or hatred of drinking as an institution...we are not witch-burners..." (page 103)
"...no opinion on outside controversial issues - particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one...express no views whatever." (Tradition Ten)

Instead, A.A. is for people who have a *desire* to stop...and then the Steps lead the sufferer toward "a sufficient substitute" (page 152) in order to make sobriety bearable.

Would I trust someone as my sponsor or spiritual advisor who is still smoking dope or "popping pills" or whatever in place of drinking? Of course not, but only because I came to A.A. with a desire to live drug-free* and would still be looking for something different.

*note: In my own mind, "drug-free" and never taking a prescribed med are *not* the same thing.

[emgreen]

Thanks for the kind responses. While I never celebrate AA birthdays around the tables because I truely believe I'm granted sobriety one day at a time, I have ten years clean & sober. For that entire time I've never abused my prescription meds...which you point out are different than other forms of "pill popping," leejoseph. I sponsor two people, but have never told them about my use of psych meds; I'm not sure if I should, or not. You also point out that., "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking."

LadyShadow, I, too, take klonopin to help me sleep. Even taking them I generally only get 4-5 hours of sleep; being bipolar, I know what happens if I get less than that - it's the "funny farm!" As you mentioned, being a controlled substance, it's virtually impossible to abuse klonopin as they are particularly stict about refill policies (the 30 day rule).

[LadyShadow]

Originally Posted by emgreen

LadyShadow, I, too, take klonopin to help me sleep. Even taking them I generally only get 4-5 hours of sleep; being bipolar, I know what happens if I get less than that - it's the "funny farm!" As you mentioned, being a controlled substance, it's virtually impossible to abuse klonopin as they are particularly stict about refill policies (the 30 day rule).

It is the Funny Farm isn't it? Yes I am glad about that 30 day rule. I have abused it though which is nuts. I have taken two instead of one and BOY did I regret it. I never did that again! I was completely zonked. Maybe I shouldn't say abused, but I sure as hell won't do that again. Congrats on the sobriety though! I wish I could do it, but I just need it sometimes.

[leejosepho]

Originally Posted by emgreen

I sponsor two people, but have never told them about my use of psych meds; I'm not sure if I should, or not.

Unless there is something in my own experience that could actually be helpful to the other person for the sake of recovery, I seldom even mention being one of the "grave emotional or mental disorder" folks amongst us. Alcoholic or not, people who have never been there almost never understand, and then the knowledge of some kind of difference between us just gets in the way.

[Moogieotter]

Good Morning Friends,

Thanks emgreen for this topic. I am also a recovering alcoholic with Bipolar Disorder. Lee has the best traditional AA wisdom on this thread.

Here is my experience, strength, and hope regarding this. During my second trip to rehab in late Winter 2011 while being treated for dual diagnosis aka psychiatric co-morbidity, we were taught repeatedly that all controlled substances/scheduled drugs are completely out of the question - the slightest compromise would potentially start the embers of obsessions and likely lead to relapse. At "graduation" or coin out, they have handouts that list everything, a few dozen items, to avoid as part of continuing care. This list included desserts with liquor based sauces, soups with a white wine base - even if "cooked out" etc.

This treatment got me 100 days sober, but yeah - I went back out and it was bad, etc etc. Eventually in June of 2012, I got sober again - this time I completely and totally removed all substances, including my bipolar meds. I was focussed on being "totally cleano" I would not even take an advil or a multi-vitamin. Fast forward to Sept 2012 and I was involuntarily committed with full blown mania twice by the Dallas Police.

I surrendered to the fact that I have to be medicated for bipolar or suffer grave consequences. My pdoc specializes in addiction medicine and psychiatric co-morbinity, and follow the no scheduled/controlled medicines philosophy. This has been key for me ie no benzos, schedule 4 sleep aids, schedule 4 stims (provigil, etc). And while not scheduled, I am not too keen on seroquel or gabapentin, as they have shown in rare cases to be abused for a high. For me, deviations from this method of treatment poses too great of a risk.

How do I feel about others in recovery who take a benzo as prescribed and otherwise do not abuse these? I think as long as rigorous honesty is not lost and there are not secret tiny little embers of obsession that form around their use, they will probably be ok. I know there were times in my recovery where the anxiety was so uncormfortable, ie rocking back in forth in a hot bath in the fetal position in panic attack hell, that I would have taken a PRN benzo without regard to my recovery for sure. I am glad I got a chance to feel the full power of my addiction and made it through without it. I do not judge others in their recovery as much as I can. I would just hate to see people I care about cheating themselves if their Rx meds take away from the full benefits and spiritual awakening I have enjoyed in long-term recovery.

I am curious about the meeting where this was a topic. I am fascinated by variants of AA Group Conscious - it seems in your group, this might have been a Closed Meeting or there is a culture of allowing cross-talk and discussion, beyond the sharing of experience, strength, and hope that many groups stick to. Can you explain this dynamic a little more?

For individuals, I have met all kinds in AA. I know a guy who claims 25 years of sobriety but smokes the finest high-grade marijuana multiple times per day. His case is interesting as he uses the "no opinion on outside issues" clause as justification for his use. I try not to judge him, but as a friend I cannot help wonder if he is cheating himself. Without a doubt, there are many members who are smoking weed, sucking on benzos, and picking up chips. Though it's hard, especially if they are still struggling to recover to not wonder and say something, because after all, we're here to help each other with relational accountability.

Thanks for hanging in there on this long read, and thanks again for this topic.

moogs

[leejosepho]

Originally Posted by Moogieotter

I am curious...it seems...there is a culture of allowing cross-talk and discussion, beyond the sharing of experience, strength, and hope that many groups stick to.

If I might interject: That is all I have ever known, and I do not waste time in meetings where gags are imposed...and the difference has to do with this:

A.A.: "God as you understand God" (page 164)
AA: "a god of your own understanding" (nowhere to be found in A.A.)

Being civil while being helpful and being politically correct are not the same thing.

[Moogieotter]

Originally Posted by leejosepho

If I might interject: That is all I have ever known, and I do not waste time in meetings where gags are imposed...and the difference has to do with this:

A.A.: "God as you understand God" (page 164)
AA: "a god of your own understanding" (nowhere to be found in A.A.)

Being civil while being helpful and being politically correct are not the same thing.

Yeah. I am definitely interested in hearing about variants between meetings, especially in different parts of the country, as I travel and end up being a meeting nomad.

Are you saying there's more of a discussion feel in the meetings in your area? I am unclear. Thanks,

moogs

[leejosepho]

Originally Posted by Moogieotter

Are you saying there's more of a discussion feel in the meetings in your area? I am unclear. Thanks,

moogs

Not where I am now and there are even more reasons why I do not attend locally, but that is how meetings were where I first got started and then elsewhere, and that is also how others and I do things in our long-standing (previously face-to-face) group that is now online. Meetings for me, both then and now, were/are about this:

"If you are an alcoholic who wants to get over it, you may already be asking - 'What do I have to do?'
"It is the purpose of this book (and these meetings) to answer such questions specifically. We shall tell you what we have done." (page 20)

I was shocked (dumbfounded, actually) the first time a chairperson in a place that was new to me cut me off and said "No cross-talk here!" After someone who was obviously "sufferingly sober" had shared a bit and had even asked some specific questions, the next few people who "shared" had said almost nothing beyond a mere "Keep coming back!" I had never before heard so many people trying to believe they were being helpful by saying virtually nothing to a sufferer, and it would have been impossible for me to keep silent...and not because I think I have so much to say, but because I used to be that sufferer sitting in meetings while seeking some tangible answers.

You might or might not find something at our site either insightful or helpful: http://www.nonameyet.org/aa-or-a-a/

[Moogieotter]

Hey lee.

Thanks for the prompt and candid reply. I have clicked your link and read the first page. I appreciate you sharing this. More later,

moogs

[emgreen]

The meetings I attend are closed meetings, but no cross-talk is allowed at the mixed meetings (men & women) I attend. The chairperson makes it clear at the beginning of the meeting that if someone has questions or problems it's best to talk to someone after the meeting...& regular members are great about pulling folks with questions or problems aside after meetings. Thus, their needs are ultimately met, IMO. I find there's very little judgement at these meetings. If someone does have a disagreement it's made in a polite/tactful manner

I am, however, unclear about the exact definition of cross-talk. One can address the concerns of a specific individual when it is their turn to speak, but cutting in while someone else is speaking isn't allowed. The order of speakers goes around the table, one person after another. I just happened to be the last person to speak at the meeting I referred to. I was at "the end of the line," so to speak - & I talked to my sponsor & a few other folks after the meeting.

This said, there are men's meetings (which they call Dignitary Meetings) in town where cross-talk is allowed...& even encouraged. In my humble opinion, however, it seems newbies get the hell beaten out of them rather than receiving compassionate advice. There's a very hierarchical vibe to meetings...I've been in meetings where folks with a year or two of sobriety work the program better than folks with longer term sobriety. Different people receive the message in different ways, at different times, & with varying degrees of humility.

Which leads me to a pet peeve about the Dignitaries (& I'll apologize to you, lee, before I write this). Some folks think "Big Book Thumpers" (an offensive term some use) chase some people away from meetings. The preface, forwards, the letter from Dr. Silkworth & the first 164 pages of the Big Book are important, but I think many newcomers feel more comfortable if these matters are paraphrased, rather than cited chapter & verse (Big Book meetings, however, are VITAL for folks new to sobriety). I've read the Big Book several dozen times & am intimately familiar with the stories; this is why my home group is a Grapevine meeting. For those unfamiliar with The AA Grapevine, it's a magazine/online source which contains contemporary stories wtitten by alcoholics. I think it's interesting to note how similar the older stories in the Big Book are to those in The Grapevine. Times change, but the disease remains the same.

I've been to meetings in different parts of the country & there have been subtle differences in different areas. In some places cross-talk is encouraged, while in others, it's discouraged. You've given such valuable information on this thread, lee, so I don't mean to step on your toes...I fear I may have done so anyways. The important factor is finding meetings that help one to the greatest degree possible.

I'm in Michigan & the next AA International Conference will be held in Detroit. With the God of our understanding willing & taking things one day at a time, perhaps we can meet there. It would be a great honor & a pleasure.

[leejosepho]

Originally Posted by emgreen

...a pet peeve about the Dignitaries (& I'll apologize to you, lee, before I write this). Some folks think "Big Book Thumpers" (an offensive term some use) chase some people away from meetings...

I would agree, and I definitely do not thump the book! I have never attended a meeting such as you have described, but I am aware of them. The people who first helped me were quite clear about carrying no message or "experience, strength and hope" other than what is clearly shared in our book, but they were also great practitioners of this:

"If he thinks he can do the job in some other way [than the one in our book], or prefers some other spiritual approach [than the one in our book], encourage him to follow his own conscience...be friendly. Let it go at that." (page 95)

A.A. was never intended to be a cafeteria, and I have yet to ever see any real alcoholic with too many options before him or her "pick and choose" the one that will actually work.

[Moogieotter]

Hey leejosepho,

I have requested to register for your nonameyet group, but have yet to receive a reply. Do you know the typical turnaround time? Thanks,

moogs

[leejosepho]

Originally Posted by Moogieotter

...have yet to receive a reply...

G-mail sent your e-mail to our SPAM folder and we had not noticed. Registration underway...

[kecanoe]

I have 29 years sobriety and take an occasional benzo. My pdoc has twenty plus years of sobriety and is an addiction specialist. He insists that I will be ok with Xanax, that I take little old granny sized doses. For a couple of years every appointment with him I would tell him that I didn't like taking it and he would tell me it would be ok. And for me, it has been ok. I don't take it very often and I take just 1/2 dose. Prior to seeing this pdoc I would have been very opposed to using benzos for anything. However, my experience now says that it is ok. I am rigorously honest about my use.